Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[McHrozni]

It would be nice if you addressed everything in the post prior.

Your post seems to consist entirely of pointing a finger and screaming "NAZI!!!11", so I really don't see what grounds for complaint you might have.

McHrozni

 

[spin0]

This is basically a word salad. Can you tell what Chinese position on the issue of Russian aggression is from it? I most certainly can't.
You bolded a few parts which can go one way or another. They respect Ukrainian territorial integrity, but all this means is they don't oppose Ukraine staying as it is and they don't lend active support in tearing it apart ... but nothing else.

Yep, using word salad is typical to China. But I think the relevant point is what you also noted: they don't give support for Russia's attempts to rip Ukraine apart, and stress the territorial integrity instead.

 

[TheRealnz]

Your post seems to consist entirely of pointing a finger and screaming "NAZI!!!11", so I really don't see what grounds for complaint you might have.

McHrozni

Because they are fascists and I have yet to see one response to the fact that the Ukraine government is no longer welcome in Crimea and that the local populace are supportive of a Russian armed presence. Face it, a third of the government is being controlled by Fascist Nazis.

You two just ran away from the entire post.

 

[angrysoba]

Because they are fascists and I have yet to see one response to the fact that the Ukraine government is no longer welcome in Crimea and that the local populace are supportive of a Russian armed presence. Face it, a third of the government is being controlled by Fascist Nazis.

You two just ran away from the entire post.

Certainly Andriy Parubiy looks like a Nazi to me. That is very concerning.

 

[McHrozni]

Yep, using word salad is typical to China. But I think the relevant point is what you also noted: they don't give support for Russia's attempts to rip Ukraine apart, and stress the territorial integrity instead.

No, they "respect" Ukrainian territorial integrity. That's basically saying they claim no Ukrainian land as their own, but nothing else. If the statement said that water is wet it would be almost as informative. The only thing that can be said is that they don't explicitly and actively support Russia in it's efforts to dismember a significantly smaller, weaker country.

How would they vote in the Security Council, I wonder? Russia wouldn't have a say in it, seeing as it concerns them directly. They would either have to obtain Chinese veto, or else convince enough of the non-permanent members to vote against.

They would need five of the following countries to vote against:
Argentina, Australia, Chad, Chile, Jordan, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Nigeria, Republic of Korea, Rwanda.

They'd be hard pressed to get three ...

McHrozni

 

[angrysoba]

Russia wouldn't have a say in it, seeing as it concerns them directly. They would either have to obtain Chinese veto, or else convince enough of the non-permanent members to vote against.

Russia will have a veto in the UNSC whether it concerns them or not.

 

[McHrozni]

Because they are fascists

So you admit your post was nothing more than pointing and screaming "NAZI!!!11". Good. Now, about this "fascist" statement, can you elaborate which actions do you consider fascist?

and I have yet to see one response to the fact that the Ukraine government is no longer welcome in Crimea and that the local populace are supportive of a Russian armed presence.

Please show me the polls that say so. The current situation in Crimea proves only that the majority of Crimea is not willing to stare down the barrel of a gun to demonstrate in favor of Ukrainian government. Not being prepared to risk death of you and your entire family doesn't make one fascist.

On the other hand, pointing a gun at somebody and telling him to be quiet, does make you fascist. No doubt there.

So why do you accuse Ukrainian government of being fascist and not condemning Crimean and Russian governments of being fascist again?

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

Russia will have a veto in the UNSC whether it concerns them or not.

Not entirely. Article 27, paragraph 3 states:
Decisions of the Security Council on all other matters shall be made by an affirmative vote of nine members including the concurring votes of the permanent members; provided that, in decisions under Chapter VI, and under paragraph 3 of Article 52, a party to a dispute shall abstain from voting.

Russia can veto use of force to dislodge them from Crimea, but UNSC has the ability investigate and condemn them.

McHrozni

 

[spin0]

Because they are fascists and I have yet to see one response to the fact that the Ukraine government is no longer welcome in Crimea and that the local populace are supportive of a Russian armed presence.

If things were as you claim why did the newly installed Crimean PM see the need to declare that people not supportive of Russian forces would be jailed (now, there's an actual fascist policy for you). In Crimea the local populance is certainly not supportive of Russian occupation - but some people indeed are in some areas. Generating extremist Russian nationalism in Crimea has been Moscow's long ongoing project. Relevant cables from Wikileaks: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_worl...ticipated_the_russian_invasion_of_crimea.html

Discussions with a wide range of contacts in Crimea November 20-22 and officials in Kyiv discounted recent speculation that a return of pro-Russian separatism in Crimea, which posed a real threat to Ukrainian territorial integrity in 1994-95, could be in the cards. However, nearly all contended that pro-Russian forces in Crimea, acting with funding and direction from Moscow, have systematically attempted to increase communal tensions in Crimea in the two years since the Orange Revolution. They have done so by cynically fanning ethnic Russian chauvinism towards Crimean Tatars and ethnic Ukrainians, through manipulation of issues like the status of the Russian language, NATO, and an alleged Tatar threat to "Slavs," in a deliberate effort to destabilize Crimea, weaken Ukraine, and prevent Ukraine's movement west into institutions like NATO and the EU.

Besides, as per latest February opinion poll only 41% of Crimeans support a "union" with Russia. And it is very likely that support for military occupation by Russia would poll much lower.

Face it, a third of the government is being controlled by Fascist Nazis.

"Fascist Nazis". You're abusing the typical Soviet (and also contemporary Russian) dogwhistles.

 

[Caustic Logic]

You did the fear mongering, as those are your words, not mine. All that stuff in red ... yours.

I took that as more an "at very, very worst" type of thing, so not much by way of fear-mongering, which it didn't read like to me. I guess your point was "see, the reality is scary enough." Yeah, in a very, very worst case scenario, as opposed to the regular "one of the worst case scenarios" we're currently seeing.

Spin0, I sense spin

people not supportive of Russian forces would be jailed.

I suspect the wording has a few more, and crucial "and" type things involved.

 

[spin0]

Certainly Andriy Parubiy looks like a Nazi to me. That is very concerning.

Yup, that guy does have a neo-nazi background.

 

[trustbutverify]

Yup, he's a Nazi scumbag... and so are alot of his friends. And so are many pro-Russian elements in and around the situation. And so, apparently, are many of the pro-Russian "anti-Imperialist" web propagandists. It's filthy. I'm rooting for an inexplicable wave of Nazi mass suicides.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Because they are fascists and I have yet to see one response to the fact that the Ukraine government is no longer welcome in Crimea and that the local populace are supportive of a Russian armed presence. Face it, a third of the government is being controlled by Fascist Nazis.

You two just ran away from the entire post.

Welcome. When McHrozni has a point, that's bad. He's saying you're just claiming things without showing them (which also never works but it's good measure to try). Is that true?

* ETA reading more, you do seem short on links but plenty versed in details. Alright, we've been kept short on those here.

I've been saying, and explaining my reasons, that yeah, these were neo-Nazi, romper-stomper thugs, a whole lot of them and extra fired up, descending on Kiev, just without displaying the hated symbols to prove it. Once there unannounced, they set to intimidating/pummeling/framing the old ELECTED government and its ELECTED and appointed and hired supporters/enforcers into death, hospital, absence due to fear, or acquiescence (out of sheer humane conscience of course) in the creation of a new order, inventing laws and all that as they go (like impeachment of the president)

Already I hear establishing a ministry of "lustration" to correct the minds of those who might dare to revive the verbotten olden ways. RFE/RL mentions it, headed by:

Yehor Sobolev (37) -- A career journalist and Euromaidan commandant credited with being one of the protests' most astute organizers and strategists. Sobolev, who had rare access to Yanukovych during the 2004 Orange Revolution, urged protesters early on to avoid violence at all costs, saying it took away their "moral high ground." His wife, Maria Padalka, is a popular TV broadcaster. Like the anticorruption bureau, the lustration committee is a new post, created at the insistence of Maidan organizers.

Nothing big, a simple in-out rehab process, and you're cleared for probationary citizenship. Itar-Tass says it's already running in some western areas.

Another interesting story - is one of their new Ministers in Kiev urging Chechen Terrorists to strike Russia on Ukraine's behalf? Offers to facilitate said attacks to follow?
http://www.justice-integrity.org/in...ist-to-act-against-russia&catid=21&Itemid=114

So, yeah - some clever words can capture the real impressions of putsches of yesteryear, but nothing yet proven, let alone accepted 'round here. Some people let themselves become all but neurologically incapable of thinking past what the Ayattolahs in New York tell them to think. But I say, focus on the "all but" part and keep trying. Up to a point.

 

[McHrozni]

inventing laws and all that as they go (like impeachment of the president)

http://www.refworld.org/pdfid/44a280124.pdf

Article 111.

They didn't invent anything, just followed a valid constitution.

It's bad when I have a point, isn't it?

McHrozni

 

[Caustic Logic]

Yup, he's a Nazi scumbag... and so are alot of his friends. And so are many pro-Russian elements in and around the situation. And so, apparently, are many of the pro-Russian "anti-Imperialist" web propagandists. It's filthy. I'm rooting for an inexplicable wave of Nazi mass suicides.

They're probably in an exceptionally good mood these days, after getting hired to be half* the muscle needed to take the capitol, and in return getting seats at the table. From there, Nazis know, you can shoot the faces off other people at the table and take over the table.

But maybe if they loose their fawning and ignorant popular support and global praise as people they aren't (hint hint) - plus whatever, they could start to get that moody. Let's hope. Putin will have a big hand in it, be aware.

* % unknown

 

[spin0]

Moscow Interbank Currency Exchange (MICEX) is crashing hard with about -11% so far today: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=MICEXINDEXCF.ME&t=5d&l=on&z=l&q=l&c=

And so is Moscow Exchange (MOEX) with about -13% today: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=MOEX.ME&t=5d&l=on&z=l&q=l&c=

Also European shares have taken a dive with banks and companies exposed to the region: Banks suffer as European shares tumble on Ukraine tensions

ETA: Ouch, Putin's wallet: Russia's state-run gas giant OAO Gazprom (GAZP.RS) plunged 10.9% in early Moscow trading amid a broad sell-off following Russian military intervention in Ukraine.

 

[uke2se]

They're probably in an exceptionally good mood these days, after getting hired to be half* the muscle needed to take the capitol, and in return getting seats at the table. From there, Nazis know, you can shoot the faces off other people at the table and take over the table.

But maybe if they loose their fawning and ignorant popular support and global praise as people they aren't (hint hint) - plus whatever, they could start to get that moody. Let's hope. Putin will have a big hand in it, be aware.

* % unknown

The only fascist getting fawning and ignorant popular support is Putin. As you might notice, posters who support Ukraina's right to live in a free and democratic nation without being serfs to the Kremlin speak out against the Nazis on both sides of the conflict. You focus only on the Nazis on the side you don't support.

 

[Caustic Logic]

http://www.refworld.org/pdfid/44a280124.pdf

Article 111.

They didn't invent anything, just followed a valid constitution.

It's bad when I have a point, isn't it?

McHrozni

Huh, is that another point? 2004 constitution. Looked, it had stipulations, went on and on...

The guy who said it's illegal could mean:
1) Under the constitution that was in effect, to be returned from, in favor of this one. I'd favor this one I suppose.
2) Even by the 2004 one, some valid stipulation wasn't met
3) The charges are bogus, etc. True, I think, but another story.

 

[McHrozni]

Huh, is that another point? 2004 constitution. Looked, it had stipulations, went on and on...

The guy who said it's illegal could mean:
1) Under the constitution that was in effect, to be returned from, in favor of this one. I'd favor this one I suppose.
2) Even by the 2004 one, some valid stipulation wasn't met
3) The charges are bogus, etc. True, I think, but another story.

The constitution was the one that was in effect in Ukraine at the time. Bogus charges or not is not for you or to me to decide. Which stipulations weren't met, exactly? That's the last straw you can grasp on.

Incidentally, everything that Yanukovich did since does amount to high treason all by itself. Actively cooperating and helping a foreign invader, geez, there isn't a clearer example of high treason.

McHrozni

 

[Puppycow]

This is basically a word salad. Can you tell what Chinese position on the issue of Russian aggression is from it? I most certainly can't.
You bolded a few parts which can go one way or another. They respect Ukrainian territorial integrity, but all this means is they don't oppose Ukraine staying as it is and they don't lend active support in tearing it apart ... but nothing else.

McHrozni

I wouldn't call it a word-salad, but standard diplomatic boilerplate. Urging all parties to exercise restraint and solve their differences peacefully. Basically they're saying this doesn't concern us; we're neutral here and not going to antagonize either side.