• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

How much time do we really have?

TimCallahan said:
It's pretty much through the entire lecture. He talks about people saying that God could become a person or the idea that God could have a son as insulting God. He also says that someone deliberately following the old way of doing things (either the Torah or the gospels) when there is a new plan (the Qur'an) is deliberately choosing evil, which must lead to hell. So, which is it, the way Abdur Raheem Green says it, or the way Q2:62 says it? . . . (snip) . . .
Click to expand...

Mikeb768: I'm still waiting for an answer to the hilited question.
 
TimCallahan said:
Mikeb768: I'm still waiting for an answer to the hilited question.
Click to expand...

You never proved that he had stated what you initially claimed. So I guess that we are all waiting for you to provide some support for your claim. Like I said I've seen the lecture for myself and don't remember him mentioning such, and I highly doubt he would have made such a statement.
 
mikeb768 said:
You never proved that he had stated what you initially claimed. So I guess that we are all waiting for you to provide some support for your claim. Like I said I've seen the lecture for myself and don't remember him mentioning such, and I highly doubt he would have made such a statement.
Click to expand...

Nonsense! It's all through the video about whether or not good people go to hell. However, here is another, much shorter, video in which Abdur Raheem Green says, quite explicitly, that on judgment day God will send Christians to hell. Now, which is true, what Abdur Raheem Green says in this video or what the Qur'an says in Q 2:62?

ETA: Here is Abdur Raheem Green essentially waffling on Q 2:62. So, if some Christian or Jew reads the Qur'an and is put off by mythology found in the book - like the moon being split in two or Haman being an advisor to the pharaoh of the Exodus, God will send him, according to Green, to hell.
 
Last edited:
TimCallahan said:
Nonsense! It's all through the video about whether or not good people go to hell. However, here is another, much shorter, video in which Abdur Raheem Green says, quite explicitly, that on judgment day God will send Christians to hell. Now, which is true, what Abdur Raheem Green says in this video or what the Qur'an says in Q 2:62?

ETA: Here is Abdur Raheem Green essentially waffling on Q 2:62. So, if some Christian or Jew reads the Qur'an and is put off by mythology found in the book - like the moon being split in two or Haman being an advisor to the pharaoh of the Exodus, God will send him, according to Green, to hell.
Click to expand...

A bit of speculation on his part don't you think? But he does make a very good point, by calling the creator of the Universe a "spec" it is a great insult. But does he have the right to say who is going where? Not in the least.

Here is a video which may help to provide further clarification on this subject. Link

So in short Muslims believe that God will have the final say who goes where, and that righteous Christians, Jews, and Sabeans, will also be saved, just as you mentioned, [Quran 2:62]
 
So in short Muslims believe that God will have the final say who goes where, and that righteous Christians, Jews, and Sabeans, will also be saved, just as you mentioned, [Quran 2:62]
Click to expand...

god [which we both know is the FSM ]of course being responsible for the conditions leading them to pick all those other wrong religions.
 
mikeb768 said:
A bit of speculation on his part don't you think? But he does make a very good point, by calling the creator of the Universe a "spec" it is a great insult. But does he have the right to say who is going where? Not in the least.

Here is a video which may help to provide further clarification on this subject. Link

So in short Muslims believe that God will have the final say who goes where, and that righteous Christians, Jews, and Sabeans, will also be saved, just as you mentioned, [Quran 2:62]
Click to expand...

That makes a good deal more sense than what Abdur Raheem Green was saying. Just out of curiosity, why did you post links to his videos, considering his rather extreme views? Here's what he has to say about the 9/11 WTC attacks (from the site):

Regarding the destruction of the World Trade Center in the September 11 attacks, Green has questioned the official story of how the buildings came to collapse. In a talk given at Morden Islamic Centre he stated: "Isn't it strange that the World Trade Centre collapses at a rate and at a speed that it is impossible for a building to free fall. And now we have major scientists confirming that the only possible way the World Trade Centre could have collapsed the way it did was by it being demolished."[
 
Last edited:
mikeb768 said:
But he does make a very good point, by calling the creator of the Universe a "spec" it is a great insult.
Click to expand...
It seems that specks make up the universe, so specks are kind of important. Allah and his pillar and throne are all imaginary specks in the mind of human specks.

"Great specks have little specks upon their backs to bite 'em,
And little specks have lesser specks, and so ad infinitum.
And the great specks themselves, in turn, have greater specks to go on;
While these again have greater still, and greater still, and so on."
​
 
mikeb768: I have a question for you regarding a number of verses from the Qur'an. Here they are (bolding added):

Q 2:6, 7: As for those who disbelieve, it makes no difference whether you warn them or not: they will not believe. God has sealed their hearts and their ears, and their eyes are covered. They will have great torment.

Q 5:41b: - if God intends some people to be so misguided, you will be powerless against God on their behalf. These are the ones whose hearts God does not intend to cleanse - a disgrace for them in this world, and then heavy punishment in the Hereafter -

Q 6;39: Those who reject Our signs are deaf, dumb, and in total darkness. God leaves whoever He will to stray and sets whoever he will on a straight path.

Q 19:83: Have you [Prophet] not seen how we send devils to incite the disbelievers to sin?

So, these verses say that God arbitrarily chooses some people to be saved and others to be damned. Of those who are to be damned, God has deliberately blinded them to the truth and even send devils to incite them to sin. This concept is not found in the Qur'an alone, but as well in the Jewish and Christian scriptures.

So, fo you really believe in a God who deliberately damns and misleads people, regardless of their own virtues?
 
TimCallahan said:
mikeb768: I have a question for you regarding a number of verses from the Qur'an. Here they are (bolding added):

Q 2:6, 7: As for those who disbelieve, it makes no difference whether you warn them or not: they will not believe. God has sealed their hearts and their ears, and their eyes are covered. They will have great torment.

Q 5:41b: - if God intends some people to be so misguided, you will be powerless against God on their behalf. These are the ones whose hearts God does not intend to cleanse - a disgrace for them in this world, and then heavy punishment in the Hereafter -

Q 6;39: Those who reject Our signs are deaf, dumb, and in total darkness. God leaves whoever He will to stray and sets whoever he will on a straight path.

Q 19:83: Have you [Prophet] not seen how we send devils to incite the disbelievers to sin?

So, these verses say that God arbitrarily chooses some people to be saved and others to be damned. Of those who are to be damned, God has deliberately blinded them to the truth and even send devils to incite them to sin. This concept is not found in the Qur'an alone, but as well in the Jewish and Christian scriptures.

So, fo you really believe in a God who deliberately damns and misleads people, regardless of their own virtues?
Click to expand...

This is just my opinion, but I don't think that the Quran is telling us that God deliberately prevents people who are searching for the truth, from attaining it. I think that it is more so that some people who are adamantly intent on denying the signs are left to follow that path. Because after all, we all have free will.

The examples which I think of when the Quran mentions statements such as "God has sealed their hearts and their ears, and their eyes are covered", are people like the Pharaoh of Egypt during the time of Moses and Abu Lahab. These are two people who were witness to a great many signs from God, but despite all that they were witness to they still would always find some excuse or a way to explain away what they had been witness to (the same as many people of today).

Is God forcing them off the path that leads back to him, well No. It is more that their disposition is to deny, deny, deny and even if they were shown 1000 different signs from God (or that point back to God) they would still find a way to dismiss each of them.

Also it would not make a whole lot of sense for God to continue to send messenger, after messenger, and revelation after revelation, only to "block" the very people, who he was reaching out to. How could God refer to himself as "Al-‘Adl" (The Just, The All-Just, The Most Just, etc.) as mentioned in the Quran if rather than each of us choosing or own path, that he is actively forcing each of us down a particular one? Personally I think that it is a rather complicated concept grasp, and as I mentioned before these are just my personal views on the matter.

Another part of this has to do with the Islamic understanding of Predestination. Even though we have free will, God still knows what choices people will make even before they make them.

Predestination (Sheikh Yusuf Estes)
Predestination (Nouman Ali Khan)
 
Last edited:
mikeb768 said:
This is just my opinion, but I don't think that the Quran is telling us that God deliberately prevents people who are searching for the truth, from attaining it. I think that it is more so that some people who are adamantly intent on denying the signs are left to follow that path.
Click to expand...
How do you know when to think and when to obey?

Because after all, we all have free will.
Click to expand...
Do you think this or know it?

The examples which I think .. such as "God has sealed their hearts and their ears, and their eyes are covered", are people .. who were witness to .. signs from God, but despite all that they .. still would always find some excuse or a way to explain away what they had been witness to
Click to expand...
Nope, unless you're thinking again; because it plainly says "God has sealed" and not "They sealed".

Is God forcing them off the path that leads back to him, well No. It is more that their disposition is to deny, deny, deny and even if they were shown 1000 different signs from God (or that point back to God) they would still find a way to dismiss each of them.
Click to expand...
Nope. Read it again:
Q 5:41b: - if God intends some people to be so misguided, you will be powerless against God on their behalf. These are the ones whose hearts God does not intend to cleanse
​
It's God doing the forcing off the path. Or is this another verse where what you think overrides what is printed?


Also it would not make a whole lot of sense for God to continue to send messenger, after messenger, and revelation after revelation, only to "block" the very people, who he was reaching out to.
Click to expand...
No, it would make no sense at all. Funny that.
And yet:
Q 6;39: Those who reject Our signs are deaf, dumb, and in total darkness. God leaves whoever He will to stray and sets whoever he will on a straight path.
​
So, despite the those who reject, God's whims are in control.


How could God refer to himself as "Al-‘Adl" (The Just, The All-Just, The Most Just, etc.) as mentioned in the Quran
Click to expand...
Is "Al-‘Adl" to be read as printed or thought about (i.e. interpreted)?

How do you know when to think and when not to?


Personally I think that it is a rather complicated concept grasp, and as I mentioned before these are just my personal views on the matter.
Click to expand...
What concept? That your thoughts override Allah's words?
That Allah's words are flexible?
That it's a bunch of fiction written by men?
Or are you going to keep finding excuses to make the Quran fit your prior beliefs?


Are the cherries nice this time of year?
 
Alareth said:
If every decision and action is known prior to you performing them you have only the illusion of free will from you personal perspective.
Click to expand...

How is free will only an "illusion" as you claim, if you really can do what ever it is you want to. No compulsion. We all choose our own path.
 
mikeb768 said:
How is free will only an "illusion" as you claim, if you really can do what ever it is you want to. No compulsion. We all choose our own path.
Click to expand...
Yes, that might be "free will" even though God knows what path you will choose. But if God leaves whoever he will to stray and puts others on a straight path as 6:39 says, then there is no free will for these people. So how do you know it exists for any people?
 
Craig B said:
So how do you know it exists for any people?
Click to expand...
Same kind of "how do you know" questions as my post which mikeb768 is ignoring.

It is safe to conclude that the Quran is ambiguous and reflects whatever humans want it to say.
 
mikeb768 said:
How is free will only an "illusion" as you claim, if you really can do what ever it is you want to. No compulsion. We all choose our own path.
Click to expand...

By your argument our "free" choices are laid out before we make them. We don't have the option of making a different choice when the time comes.

Everything is fixed and ultimately pointless.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom