How much time do we really have?

[pakeha]

"NASA's seismic analysis would have detected a fault that went clear through the moon", oh really? And you know this how?

How about this or this? So, NASA can detect what the lunar core is like, but they can't find the fault line going clear through the moon?

BTW, had NASA detected such a fault, you would be trumpeting this evidence to the skies. Yet, when science doesn't back up your claim - a claim made about a physical object, the moon - you dismiss it..

Thanks for the links, Tim Callahan.
mikeb768, how is it possible such physical evidence would be undetectable?

 

[Craig B]

So like I said before if in a few years time or even after your death, science (NASA) and historical records catch up to the Quran (just as we have already seen), what excuse will you put forward?

I promise that if NASA ever verifies this, I will believe that science has "caught up with the Quran". But not until then:

And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say: “I shall recite to you something of his story.” Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything. So he followed a way. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water ...

18:83-86.

 

[TimCallahan]

If we are so worthless, why would our worship be of any value.
If you say he loves us, then we do have value.
Which is it?

Excellent points. Christianity and Islam share this double-talk about humanity's place in creation and in the eyes of God. While Genesis says that God made us in his own image (not to be taken literally, I'll assume), the Qur'an tells us, in Surah Al-Baqara (Surah 2, The Cow) of the disobedience of Iblis, a corruption of the Syriac variant of the Greek diabolos, meaning "slanderer" and identified with Satan (Q 2:34):

When We told the angels, "Bow down before Adam," they all bowed. But not Iblis, who refused and was arrogant:he was one of the disobedient.

This story is repeated several times in the Qur'an. So, according to Genesis, we are made in the image of God, and according to the Qur'an, we are so exalted that God told the angels to bow to Adam. Yet we are, at the same time worthless, depraved and in need of salvation in both Christianity and Islam.

Both religions also teach that God is perfect and only creates good. Yet, somehow evil came into the world. The escape hatch for this crazy-making logic is that God gave us all free will. However, we were were all beings created by a God who is all good, then, of our own free will, we would have all have made the right free will choice to be obedient and in harmony with God.

So, both Christianity and Islam give the double message: God is perfect. Everything he creates is perfect. God made us all and loves us all. Yet, we are all wretched, depraved and utterly unworthy of God's love. Further, this loving God will send people to hell for eternity if they take the wrong loyalty oath.

Usually, when people put these questions to representatives of these religions assertively, refusing to be put off with nonsensical answers, the questioners are told they are too insignificant, weak, stupid and / or depraved to be able to see the truth. So, our mental capacities come from a perfect God. Yet, if we use them and find holes in the logic of religious teachings, it's because we are depraved, evil and worthless.

 

[Donn]

So, both Christianity and Islam give the double message: .. God .. loves us all. Yet, we are all wretched, depraved and utterly unworthy of God's love.

This contradiction has the flavour of a soft and slow mind-control job. Hints of gaslighting and dashes of doublethink.
Keep the believers off-balance. A little bit this way, a tad the other. He loves me, but I'm dirty. I have to work harder to become worth loving. It's looking bleak. But he loves me. Phew.

It's gross. I wonder if any of us escape this kind of manipulation entirely? Politics, work, social status? It's in there too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink

 

[Scorpion]

Yeah I've seen that lecture, which portion of the lecture did he mention what you claimed?

And yes, just like an ant is essentially worthless/nothing when compared to any human. It is similar when we humans try and compare our selves to a perfect, all knowing, all powerful being, such as the creator of the universe, despite how unpleasant and harsh that may sound.

Regarding Predestination, you do have free will, and God still knows your ultimate fate.

Yea! the good old quran says ants can talk. I suppose science will discover that is true. Except we already know that ants communicate by chemical smells.

Quran 27.18 At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."

 

[Lord Emsworth]

So like I said before if in a few years time or even after your death, science (NASA) and historical records catch up to the Quran (just as we have already seen), what excuse will you put forward?

It is usually* the apologists who have to do the catching up. The preferred tools are creative re-interpretation often with a big, metaphorical cleaver. We know that already.


* Usually, because what science has to say isn't always relevant to some people.

 

[mikeb768]

Yea! the good old quran says ants can talk. I suppose science will discover that is true. Except we already know that ants communicate by chemical smells.

Quran 27.18 At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."

Scorpion maybe you are unaware of this, but ants don't just communicate with pheromones, it was recently discovered (by accident) that ants actually do talk to each other.

Talking Ants as Mentioned in the Quran

So God continues to provide these small signs and reminders, but most of you continue to wait for the major signs to arrive. Why is that? Once the major signs begin to occur, the door of repentance will close. To then say "ah yes now I believe", will be of no avail.

 

[Scorpion]

Maybe you are unaware of this, but ants don't just communicate with pheromones, it was recently discovered (by accident) that ants actually do talk to each other.

Talking Ants as Mentioned in the Quran

So God continues to provide these small signs and reminders, but most of you continue to wait for the major signs to arrive. Why is that? Once the major signs begin to occur, the door of repentance will close. To then say "ah yes now I believe", will be of no avail.

So King Solomon could understand a talking ant could he?

Quran 27.18
At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."

Quran sura 27.19
So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said: "O my Lord! so order me that I may be grateful for Thy favours, which thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please Thee: And admit me, by Thy Grace, to the ranks of Thy righteous Servants."

 

[dlorde]

So the seismometers which Apollo astronauts placed on the moon between 1969 and 1972 should have been able to detect seismic activity which took place in the 7th century? Right...

No silly, they can detect major faults and fracture zones

And how do you define a "major structural flaw"?

Ooh, let me see... how about being split in two?

ETA: ninja'd by various... I should read ahead more. Now where's that copy of the Quran...

 

[mikeb768]

So King Solomon could understand a talking ant could he?

Quran 27.18
At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."

Quran sura 27.19
So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said: "O my Lord! so order me that I may be grateful for Thy favours, which thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please Thee: And admit me, by Thy Grace, to the ranks of Thy righteous Servants."

OK so first you say that: "Yea! the good old Quran says ants can talk. I suppose science will discover that is true." I then post a video showing you where science has in fact caught up to what God revealed to us over 1400 years ago:

Scorpion maybe you are unaware of this, but ants don't just communicate with pheromones, it was recently discovered (by accident) that ants actually do talk to each other.

Talking Ants as Mentioned in the Quran

And rather than saying "Wow, just a second earlier I was wondering if and when this would be proven to be true, now I find out that it is, that is pretty amazing! How would an illiterate man who lived in the desert know such a thing, something that we only recently were able to discover". You respond by saying: "So King Solomon could understand a talking ant could he?"

SMH... You are attempting to create circular argument, and moving the goalposts at the same time. The Quran tells up that the ants spoke to each other. [Quran 27:18] Until, when they came upon the valley of the ants, an ant said, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not."

 

[Nay_Sayer]

OK so first you say that: "Yea! the good old Quran says ants can talk. I suppose science will discover that is true." I then post a video showing you where science has in fact caught up to what God revealed to us over 1400 years ago:

Scorpion maybe you are unaware of this, but ants don't just communicate with pheromones, it was recently discovered (by accident) that ants actually do talk to each other.

Talking Ants as Mentioned in the Quran

And rather than saying "Wow, just a second earlier I was wondering if and when this would be proven to be true, now I find out that it is, that is pretty amazing! How would an illiterate man who lived in the desert know such a thing, something that we only recently were able to discover". You respond by saying: "So King Solomon could understand a talking ant could he?"

SMH... You are attempting to create circular argument, and moving the goalposts at the same time. The Quran tells up that the ants spoke to each other. [Quran 27:18] Until, when they came upon the valley of the ants, an ant said, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not."

For fun I'll concede you that point;

Allah is He who created 7 heavens one above the other like a dome, and of the Earths, the like thereof, 7 planets but they are flat

Can you spot the error?

 

[mikeb768]

For fun I'll concede you that point;

Can you spot the error?

[Quran 65:12] "It is God who has created seven heavens and of the earth, the like of them. [His] command descends among them so you may know that God is over all things competent and that God has encompassed all things in knowledge."

Sure please enlighten us. What translation of the Quran are you using btw?

 

[Nay_Sayer]

[Quran 65:12] "It is God who has created seven heavens and of the earth, the like of them. [His] command descends among them so you may know that God is over all things competent and that God has encompassed all things in knowledge."

Sure please enlighten us. What translation of the Quran are you using btw?

Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number. Through the midst of them (all) descends His Command: that ye may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah comprehends, all things in (His) Knowledge.
Qur'an 65:12

Interpretation via Tafsir Ibn-Abass.

The old "That's the wrong version of my holy book" shtick.

There is also this little diddy: "We created man from sounding clay, from mud molded into shape;
Qur'an 15:26"

 

[devnull]

And rather than saying "Wow, just a second earlier I was wondering if and when this would be proven to be true, now I find out that it is, that is pretty amazing! How would an illiterate man who lived in the desert know such a thing, something that we only recently were able to discover". You respond by saying: "So King Solomon could understand a talking ant could he?"

For fun I'll concede you that point;

You are far too accomodating sir.

Quran 27.18
At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."

They discovered that ants communicate by stroking a natural 'washboard' on their abdomen with a body part that resembles a plectrum.

...

The scientists are unsure how the ants 'hear' the sounds. They probably detect vibrations and may have a dedicated part of their bodies that listens out to vibrations in the air.

This is obviously a simple case of anthropomorphism. Classifying this as "talking", especially complicated speech as the Quran contends, is nonsense.

If you find it amazing that the Quran "knew" this before science, the same could be said for any anthropomorphised ant character throughout literature.

In short Mike, this is a stretch, even for you.

 

[Craig B]

Scorpion maybe you are unaware of this, but ants don't just communicate with pheromones, it was recently discovered (by accident) that ants actually do talk to each other.

What do they say? Can they talk about kings, mentioning them by name, as the Quranic ants did when Solomon appeared?

 

[pakeha]

You are far too accomodating sir.

This is obviously a simple case of anthropomorphism. Classifying this as "talking", especially complicated speech as the Quran contends, is nonsense.

If you find it amazing that the Quran "knew" this before science, the same could be said for any anthropomorphised ant character throughout literature.

In short Mike, this is a stretch, even for you.

You beat me to it, devnull.
In any case, mikeb768, have you conceded that there's no sign the moon was ever split and put together again, even though present-day technology is capable of registering such evidence?

 

[Craig B]

You are far too accomodating sir.

This is obviously a simple case of anthropomorphism. Classifying this as "talking", especially complicated speech as the Quran contends, is nonsense.

If you find it amazing that the Quran "knew" this before science, the same could be said for any anthropomorphised ant character throughout literature.

In short Mike, this is a stretch, even for you.

It may come from Proverbs 6; these sayings are traditionally attributed to Solomon.

6 Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider its ways and be wise! 7 It has no commander, no overseer or ruler, 8 yet it stores its provisions in summer and gathers its food at harvest.

Many creatures store food seasonally, but they are not motivated by wisdom. So they don't have anything wise to say to each other.

 

[Donn]

.. but most of you continue to wait for the major signs to arrive

Nope.

It's Science, not Signse...

 

[Donn]

the same could be said for any anthropomorphised ant character throughout literature.

anthropomorphised. Chuckle.

 

[Donn]

The Quran tells up that the ants spoke to each other. [Quran 27:18] Until, when they came upon the valley of the ants, an ant said, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not."

Was it in a little ant accent? Maybe a Brit slang thing.
"Oi you lot scram! Oi, you. I sed yuou! Do ye 'ere me? These big plods is coming, up over the 'ill. Get yer 'eds down an your bottoms inside right quick!"