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How much time do we really have?

Alareth said:
By your argument our "free" choices are laid out before we make them. We don't have the option of making a different choice when the time comes.

Everything is fixed and ultimately pointless.
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The companions of the Prophet had the same questions and thoughts 1400 years ago when they heard this. Essentially asking, "Why bother doing anything if everything has already been decided?", One hadith reports that Muhammad said about Qadr (Predestination):

"Ali (r) narrated that one day the Prophet (saw) was sitting with a wooden stick in his hand with which he was scratching the ground. He raised his head and said, “There is none of you, but has his place assigned either in the Fire or in Paradise.” They (the Companions) inquired, “O God’s Messenger! Why should we carry on doing good deeds, shall we depend (upon Qadar/Fate) and give up work?” The Prophet (saw) said: “No, carry on doing good deeds, for everyone will find it easy (to do) such deeds that will lead him towards that for which he has been created”. Then he recited the verse: “As for him who gives (in charity) and keeps his duty to God and fears Him, and believes in al-Husna, We will make smooth for him the path of Ease (goodness) [Quran 92:5-7] . Recorded in Sahih Muslim

Another hadith tells us that the destiny of everything is recording in Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuud (The Preserved Tablet). In an authentic hadith narrated by At-Tirmithee and Abu Dawuud, Prophet Muhammad (saw) said “Verily, the first thing God created was the pen. He said to it: ‘Write.’ It replied: ‘My Lord, what should I write?’ So He said: ‘Write all that will occur.’ So in that hour, everything that will occur until the Day of Recompense was recorded.” Another hadith indicates that this took place 50,000 years prior to creation.

Maybe for some people these hadiths will help to shed some light on the subject (for others maybe not). For me it just makes sense, God is not bound by Time (as we are), and also if God did not already know what was to come, then essentially it would be possible to surprise God. Now how could God claim to be all knowing and then occasionally get caught off guard?
 
mikeb768 said:
For me it just makes sense, God is not bound by Time (as we are), and also if God did not already know what was to come, then essentially it would be possible to surprise God. Now how could God claim to be all knowing and then occasionally get caught off guard?
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So, you're saying God is incapable of learning anything?
 
mikeb768 said:
. . . (mega-snip) . . . Another part of this has to do with the Islamic understanding of Predestination. Even though we have free will, God still knows what choices people will make even before they make them.
Predestination (Sheikh Yusuf Estes)
Predestination (Nouman Ali Khan)
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I have to agree with Alareth (post # 456).If God already knows what choices we will make, then we really don't have free will. You can't be fated to do a certain thing and still have free will at the same time. BTW, your argument, which I've hilited, is the same as used by Christians.

Now, I would concede that our free will isn't perfect. For example, of my own free will, and quite a bit to my father's chagrin, I chose to be an artist. However, given who I was and what innate interests I had, I wasn't likely to make a free will choice to become an accountant. However, I don't see myself as predestined to either to lie or tell the truth on any given occasion.
 
mikeb768 said:
The companions of the Prophet had the same questions and thoughts .. asking, "Why bother doing anything if everything has already been decided?"
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A fair question, poorly answered by Mo.


For me it just makes sense
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Why?
Does your sense come from the printed words in the Quran, or from your thinking about them?
How do you know that you are right? Could you be an apostate or heretic?
What gives you the right to think for yourself?
Can you come to a conclusion that is not Islamic? Can you disagree with Islam?
If you cannot, to what extent is your thinking of any use? Why not simply give it up and surrender - after all, that's one thing that Islam means.

God is not bound by Time (as we are),
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How do you know?
Is your source your thoughts about words in the Quran (et al.)?
Are your thoughts correct?
If not, how will you correct them? Will you buckle and agree or will you continue to think?
Do you want the right to think? Does Islam offer it to you? Is it leashed and how long is the leash?

and also if God did not already know what was to come, then essentially it would be possible to surprise God. Now how could God claim to be all knowing and then occasionally get caught off guard?
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Maybe he's all knowing and chooses bouts of amnesia to keep things spicy. A kind of Punctuated Ad-librium.
 
mikeb768: Though it's not my desire to swarm you with a barrage of questions, watching your linked video featuring Sheikh Yusuf Estes, brought certain questions to my mind:

1) Does everyone who converts to Islam have to change his name to something Arabic, and if so, why?

2) Is it required for every man who converts to Islam to grow a beard? I note this fashion in both Abdur Raheem Green and Sheikh Yusuf Estes

3) Are Muslims required to say, after every mention of Muhammad's name, the formula, "Peace be upon him," or something similar?

4) Finally, Estes said, in the clip, that the reason God created humans was for them to worship him, and, indeed, I found this verse in the Qur'an (Q 51:56, bolding added):

I created jinn and mankind only to worship me.

This provokes in the question similar to the one asked by Captain Kirk in one of the Star Trek movies, involving a being claiming to be a god, who was demanding a starship be delivered to him. Kirk's question was, "Why does God need a starship?" My question regarding the verse above is, "Why does God need worshippers? Why does God need someone to praise him, to be his cheering section?
 
Rincewind said:
So God created humankind knowing that he was going to destroy everybody (except Noah's family) with a giant Flood?

Or is this story not in your book?
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Yes, it's all through their book. The Qur'an is extremely repetitive, and Noah's story is repeated and alluded to throughout the book.
 
TimCallahan said:
Yes, it's all through their book. The Qur'an is extremely repetitive, and Noah's story is repeated and alluded to throughout the book.
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The story of Noah is at Quran 11.37 to 11.44


Here are some of the other people the Allah of the quran is supposed to have destroyed. The people of Lot, and Thalmud, and Ad, and Pharaoh, and Sodom and Gomorrah, and Tubba.

7.4 How many towns have We destroyed (for their sins)? Our punishment took them on a sudden by night or while they slept for their afternoon rest.

8.54 (Deeds) after the manner of the people of Pharaoh and those before them": They treated as false the Signs of their Lord: so We destroyed them for their crimes, and We drowned the people of Pharaoh: for they were all oppressors and wrong- doers.

10.13 Generations before you We destroyed when they did wrong: their apostles came to them with clear-signs, but they would not believe! thus do We requite those who sin!

17.17 How many generations have We destroyed after Noah? and enough is thy Lord to note and see the sins of His servants.

18.59 Such were the populations we destroyed when they committed iniquities; but we fixed an appointed time for their destruction.

19.74 But how many (countless) generations before them have we destroyed, who were even better in equipment and in glitter to the eye?

19.98 But how many (countless) generations before them have We destroyed? Canst thou find a single one of them (now) or hear (so much as) a whisper of them?

44.37 What! Are they better than the people of Tubba and those who were before them? We destroyed them because they were guilty of sin.


053.050 And that it is He Who destroyed the (powerful) ancient 'Ad (people),

53.53 And He destroyed the Overthrown Cities (of Sodom and Gomorrah).

54.34 We sent against them a violent Tornado with showers of stones, (which destroyed them), except Lut's household: them We delivered by early Dawn,-

69.5 But the Thamud,- they were destroyed by a terrible Storm of thunder and lightning!

69.6 And the 'Ad, they were destroyed by a furious Wind, exceedingly violent;
 
mikeb768 said:
How is free will only an "illusion" as you claim, if you really can do what ever it is you want to. No compulsion. We all choose our own path.
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There is a much quoted verse in the quran that says there is no compulsion in religion, at sura 2.256
But the very next verse sura 2.257 says that those who disbelieve will burn in hellfire for all eternity.

What kind of choice is that?
 
TimCallahan said:
mikeb768: Though it's not my desire to swarm you with a barrage of questions, watching your linked video featuring Sheikh Yusuf Estes, brought certain questions to my mind:

1) Does everyone who converts to Islam have to change his name to something Arabic, and if so, why?

2) Is it required for every man who converts to Islam to grow a beard? I note this fashion in both Abdur Raheem Green and Sheikh Yusuf Estes

3) Are Muslims required to say, after every mention of Muhammad's name, the formula, "Peace be upon him," or something similar?

4) Finally, Estes said, in the clip, that the reason God created humans was for them to worship him, and, indeed, I found this verse in the Qur'an (Q 51:56, bolding added):

I created jinn and mankind only to worship me.

This provokes in the question similar to the one asked by Captain Kirk in one of the Star Trek movies, involving a being claiming to be a god, who was demanding a starship be delivered to him. Kirk's question was, "Why does God need a starship?" My question regarding the verse above is, "Why does God need worshippers? Why does God need someone to praise him, to be his cheering section?
Click to expand...

I think that it actually is your desire to swarm me with a barrage of questions, but maybe some of this information will be beneficial to you or others. Also I feel very blessed that I have been able to gain so much knowledge about subjects such as these.

1) Does everyone who converts to Islam have to change his name to something Arabic, and if so, why?

No, but many do. I think it is about people wanting to identify themselves with their new found religion. Although it may be best to ask the particular individual because each person may have their own reasons.

2) Is it required for every man who converts to Islam to grow a beard? I note this fashion in both Abdur Raheem Green and Sheikh Yusuf Estes

Highly encouraged (based on the practice of the prophet), although not everyone can grow a beard. [1], [2] (humorous responses)

3) Are Muslims required to say, after every mention of Muhammad's name, the formula, "Peace be upon him," or something similar?

Yes, based on the teachings of the Quran as well as a number of hadiths.
[Quran 33:56]
"God and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.

"The closest of people to me on the Day of Resurrection will be those who send the most blessings on me.” Hadith recorded in Jami` at-Tirmidhi

There are various other hadiths which also mention this.

4) Finally, Estes said, in the clip, that the reason God created humans was for them to worship him, and, indeed, I found this verse in the Qur'an (Q 51:56, bolding added): "Why does God need worshipers?

This is something that I have written about on more than one occasion. It is a common misconception that people seem to have (atheist in particular), that "God needs us", or that "God needs us to worship him". We can plainly see that God is free of all needs, by looking at the following verses:

[Quran, 35:15] "O mankind! It is you who stand in need of God, but God is Rich (Free of all wants and needs), Worthy of All Praise."

[Quran 47:38] "Here you are - those invited to spend in the cause of God - but among you are those who withhold [out of greed]. And whoever withholds only withholds [benefit] from himself; and God is the Free of need, while you are the needy. And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you."

[Quran 39:7] "If you disbelieve - indeed, God is Free from need of you. And He does not approve for His servants disbelief. And if you are grateful, He approves it for you; and no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return, and He will inform you about what you used to do. Indeed, He is Knowing of that within the breasts."

So in short we can see that God does not need us, it is us who need God, and people who choose to take advantage of the many things which have been provided to them (and us) by God are seen as ungrateful.

In this lecture: Kamal El Mekki Purpose of Life (Especially the first 5 to 10 minutes), he provides answers to the last question (and others) which you have mentioned. The entire lecture is really good, well explained, provides some great analogies, and even quite humorous.

May God guide all of those who are sincere, Peace.
 
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mikeb768 said:
Yeah I've seen that lecture, which portion of the lecture did he mention what you claimed?

And yes, just like an ant is essentially worthless/nothing when compared to any human. It is similar when we humans try and compare our selves to a perfect, all knowing, all powerful being, such as the creator of the universe, despite how unpleasant and harsh that may sound.

Regarding Predestination, you do have free will, and God still knows your ultimate fate.
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God made us so he could rub our faces in his perfection?
 
mikeb768 said:
I think that it actually is your desire to swarm me with a barrage of questions, but maybe some of this information will be beneficial to you or others. Also I feel very blessed that I have been able to gain so much knowledge about subjects such as these.
Click to expand...

No, I actually wasn't trying to swarm you; but thanks a bunch for calling me a liar.

mikeb768 said:
1) Does everyone who converts to Islam have to change his name to something Arabic, and if so, why?

No, but many do. I think it is about people wanting to identify themselves with their new found religion. Although it may be best to ask the particular individual because each person may have their own reasons.

2) Is it required for every man who converts to Islam to grow a beard? I note this fashion in both Abdur Raheem Green and Sheikh Yusuf Estes

Highly encouraged (based on the practice of the prophet), although not everyone can grow a beard. [1], [2] (humorous responses)

3) Are Muslims required to say, after every mention of Muhammad's name, the formula, "Peace be upon him," or something similar?

Yes, based on the teachings of the Quran as well as a number of hadiths.
[Quran 33:56]
"God and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.

"The closest of people to me on the Day of Resurrection will be those who send the most blessings on me.” Hadith recorded in Jami` at-Tirmidhi

There are various other hadiths which also mention this.
Click to expand...

Fine. Thank you for clearing up these questions. I won't bring these matters up again.

mikeb768 said:
4) Finally, Estes said, in the clip, that the reason God created humans was for them to worship him, and, indeed, I found this verse in the Qur'an (Q 51:56, bolding added): "Why does God need worshipers?

This is something that I have written about on more than one occasion. It is a common misconception that people seem to have (atheist in particular), that "God needs us", or that "God needs us to worship him". We can plainly see that God is free of all needs, by looking at the following verses:

[Quran, 35:15] "O mankind! It is you who stand in need of God, but God is Rich (Free of all wants and needs), Worthy of All Praise."

[Quran 47:38] "Here you are - those invited to spend in the cause of God - but among you are those who withhold [out of greed]. And whoever withholds only withholds [benefit] from himself; and God is the Free of need, while you are the needy. And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you."

[Quran 39:7] "If you disbelieve - indeed, God is Free from need of you. And He does not approve for His servants disbelief. And if you are grateful, He approves it for you; and no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return, and He will inform you about what you used to do. Indeed, He is Knowing of that within the breasts."

So in short we can see that God does not need us, it is us who need God, and people who choose to take advantage of the many things which have been provided to them (and us) by God are seen as ungrateful.

In this lecture: Kamal El Mekki Purpose of Life (Especially the first 5 to 10 minutes), he provides answers to the last question (and others) which you have mentioned. The entire lecture is really good, well explained, provides some great analogies, and even quite humorous.

May God guide all of those who are sincere, Peace.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I should reword the question, "Why does God need worshippers?" to something else. I understand your assertion that a perfect God would hardly need us. However, we are still left with the assertion that God created humans to be his cheering section. That's it? He didn't create people for the purpose of expressing his nature as a creator? He didn't make us so that we could learn, explore etc.? Why would a perfect being create intelligent beings for no other purpose than just so they can praise him?
 
TimCallahan said:
No, I actually wasn't trying to swarm you; but thanks a bunch for calling me a liar.



Fine. Thank you for clearing up these questions. I won't bring these matters up again.



Perhaps I should reword the question, "Why does God need worshippers?" to something else. I understand your assertion that a perfect God would hardly need us. However, we are still left with the assertion that God created humans to be his cheering section. That's it? He didn't create people for the purpose of expressing his nature as a creator? He didn't make us so that we could learn, explore etc.? Why would a perfect being create intelligent beings for no other purpose than just so they can praise him?
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OK, my first comment was meant as tongue-in-cheek, although humor is not always well conveyed through text.

Regarding your question, "Why would a perfect being create intelligent beings for no other purpose than just so they can praise him?"

I really don't know. But there are a lot of things which I don't know. In [Quran 2:30] translations use the terms "viceroy", "vicegerent", and "successive authority" when describing the creation of Mankind to the Angels. But does this tell us why? Not really imo. Although even when the angels asked the same question to God of why create man, He said: "I know what ye know not."

Maybe this has to do with Paradise, if the Quran tells us that there exists seven levels of Paradise each one many time greater than the one below, then God would need some way to determine who goes where?

Professor Jeffrey Lang, who was once an atheist and has since converted to Islam, discusses the same question here: Why Did God Create Human Beings?
I watched the lecture he gave a few years ago, he is a smart guy with lots of questions. Even in his books he seems to always be raising lots of good questions. The Purpose of Life - By Jeffrey Lang

Although God know best.
 
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mikeb768 said:
OK, my first comment was meant as tongue-in-cheek, although humor is not always well conveyed through text.

Regarding your question, "Why would a perfect being create intelligent beings for no other purpose than just so they can praise him?"

I really don't know. But there are a lot of things which I don't know. In [Quran 2:30] translations use the terms "viceroy", "vicegerent", and "successive authority" when describing the creation of Mankind to the Angels. But does this tell us why? Not really imo. Although even when the angels asked the same question to God of why create man, He said: "I know what ye know not."

Maybe this has to do with Paradise, if the Quran tells us that there exists seven levels of Paradise each one many time greater than the one below, then God would need some way to determine who goes where?

Professor Jeffrey Lang, who was once an atheist and has since converted to Islam, discusses the same question here: Why Did God Create Human Beings?
I watched the lecture he gave a few years ago, he is a smart guy with lots of questions. Even in his books he seems to always be raising lots of good questions. The Purpose of Life - By Jeffrey Lang

Although God know best.
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But he ain't telling.
 
mikeb768 said:
How is free will only an "illusion" as you claim, if you really can do what ever it is you want to. No compulsion. We all choose our own path.
Click to expand...
Clearly it must be because what you want to do is also predetermined. From our subjective viewpoint, not knowing what the future holds, it seems like a free choice, but it is nevertheless predetermined (if God knows what it will be).

This also answers the question 'why do anything?'. Since we don't know what God knows we are going to do, we are obliged to act as if we have free will.

This remains true in even in a godless deterministic universe.
 
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