Are the crucifixion nails of Jesus in Europe?

[Robrob]

I would like to refer you to King Herod beheading John the Baptist in Matthew 14:1-12; Mark 6:14-29; and Luke 9:7-9. How is Jesus related to John the Baptist? Who is the disciple who was with His mother at the crucifixion site (John 19:26-27)?

And why do you trust Ama after he lied to you and you promised you wouldn't believe him any more?

 

[Nay_Sayer]

I doubt that very, very much. Ama Ka Apaz Maria Liwayway Alvaran whistling arias from the Pasiong Mahal while lurking under a bedspread is consistently wrong about, well, everything. World War in July/August 2012? Wrong. London Olympics to be cancelled? Also wrong. What prediction has she ever gotten right?

Look besides all those times, Ama has never been wrong.

 

[Akhenaten]

I would like to refer you to King Herod beheading John the Baptist in Matthew 14:1-12; Mark 6:14-29; and Luke 9:7-9. How is Jesus related to John the Baptist? Who is the disciple who was with His mother at the crucifixion site (John 19:26-27)?

None of that even remotely addresses the issues raised in the post to which you are responding.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

All right. Let's go along with the idea that James the Lesser went up to Lutetia, and found the nail swimming in the river. What happened in the 300 years between this event and when that part of France actually became christian? Did the nail just lie around somewhere waiting for better times?

It is Saint James the Greater and not the Lesser that went to Lutetia, or Lutetia Parisorum, or Lutece, now known as Paris. The nail found by Saint James floating in the river in Paris is now in Carpentras, France called Clavo Santo or Holy Nail.

 

[Akhenaten]

It is Saint James the Greater and not the Lesser that went to Lutetia, or Lutetia Parisorum, or Lutece, now known as Paris.

The fault for any confusion here is yours.

Why did you post this obfuscatory nonsense if James the Lesser has nothing to do with your stupid fairytale?

I am sorry, pakeha. There are two apostles of Jesus named James. One is the son of Zebedee and brother of the apostle John, and the other is the son of Alphaeus. One is called Saint James the Greater (son of Zebedee) and the other, Saint James the Lesser (son of Alphaeus). I guess the apostle who went to Spain is Saint James the Greater or San Tiago or Santiago. There is Santiago de Compostela in the province of Galicia and that the Patron Saint of Spain is Santiago.

In any case, you have not a shred of evidence that either James (if they even existed) made this nonsensical side trip.

The nail found by Saint James floating in the river in Paris is now in Carpentras, France called Clavo Santo or Holy Nail.

 

[AdMan]

Posting this here again for the benefit of newbies who may not be aware of Ama's and PeaceCrusader's many lies:

20120726.2115

Wednesday, 2012-07-25, has now passed the US. It is Thursday, 07-26, across the US: 7:15am in New York City, 4:15am in Los Angeles, and 1:15am in Honolulu.

The prophecies of the Holy Spirit that the world war which will start from the trouble in the Philippines will occur on a Wednesday and that the 2012 Olympic Games in London will not be held, failed to materialize. Even though the Games will officially open tomorrow, 07-27, I cannot move the goal posts anymore because 07-25 is the last Wednesday for the month of July.

I would like to apologize to all of you. I am deeply sorry. I will refrain from discussing prophecies anymore and be tight-lipped on this. I will reconsider my belief that the Holy Spirit who we are talking to is the true Holy Spirit and so is my belief that Ka Apaz’ physical body is appropriated by this spirit. As I used to say, if we were to believe in a god, we have to be sure that He is the only true God. As God, He must be omniscient. That means, He knows the past, the present, and the future.

 

[AdMan]

The nail found by Saint James floating in the river in Paris is now in Carpentras, France called Clavo Santo or Holy Nail.

No.

Clavo Santo is Spanish for holy nail. Even if it existed, it wouldn't be called that in France any more than it would be called "Spooky Spike".

The reason "Ama" says it's called that is because as a Filipina the old fraud knows the Spanish words but not the French ones. Simple as that. Again, the lies are obvious.

 

[Astreja]

Who told you, Astreja, that “Paris wasn’t even there at the time”? Check Wikipedia, history of Paris.

You mean, the Wikipedia link that *I* posted? I did check it. There was no city of Paris in existence at the time that St. James was alive; it was a Roman-controlled settlement called Lutetia. Why didn't Ama know that? I think it's because Maria Alvaran had heard of Paris but had never heard of Lutetia. Conveniently, Ama only knows what Maria knows, or what she makes up.

It is just logical that before proceeding to Spain, Saint James went first to Paris. Check your map and see where Judaea and Spain are.

Uh... I think you should be the one looking at the map, Aristeo. Judaea to Paris to Spain is a detour. It's much faster to come along the north coast of Africa and then cross into Spain at Gibraltar.

• Jerusalem to Seville via North Africa: About 5500 kilometres.
• Jerusalem to Seville via Paris: About 6100 kilometres.

There should also be some sort of record of St. James coming through the various territories between Judaea and Paris. I don't think there is. (If he had gone the northern route, he also would have run smack-dab into the middle of the Roman-Parthian war.)

Also, how come that first nail was in the church of Carpentras in France?

Probably because a priest took a completely ordinary local nail and lied to his congregation, telling them that it was one of the nails used at the CruciFiction.

If you cannot find the travel of Saint James to Paris is maybe because he was an obscure itinerant preacher then.

Far more likely it's because he never went there.

We have a spirit who lived before and who knows each of us.

Prove it. Pray to "Ama" for wisdom, and then post the full birth name of My maternal grandmother here in this thread. You have 24 hours to do this. (This is to discourage any attempt to find the information online through genealogy sites.)

I am just sharing to you what He revealed. It is up to you whether you will accept wholly or partially His revelations, or completely reject what He said.

I reject it completely. Your "Holy Spirit" is a liar and a fraud.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

No.

Clavo Santo is Spanish for holy nail. Even if it existed, it wouldn't be called that in France any more than it would be called "Spooky Spike".

The reason "Ama" says it's called that is because as a Filipina the old fraud knows the Spanish words but not the French ones. Simple as that. Again, the lies are obvious.

I got Karpentas from “Awit at Salaysay ng Pasiong Mahal ni Hesukristong Panginoon Natin” (Song and Narration of Holy Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ) or Pasiong Mahal or Pasion, page 203, to wit: “Isa ngang pakong marilag ang nasa bayang Karpentas na minamahal ng lahat kung ipagpiesta’y ang tawag Clavo Santo ang pamagat” (One beautiful nail is at the town of Karpentas that is loved by all when at feast day, it is called Clavo Santo).

On page 204 are the second, third, and fourth nails of Jesus. The second nail is at a church in Milan, Italy which San Carlos placed when he went and visited the place. The third nail of Jesus is at the diadem of Constantine I which his mother, Elena, placed. This nail is at a temple in Rome, Italy. The fourth nail of Jesus was thrown into the Adriatic Sea which did not sink and floated and ended up in Paris, France at the San Dionisio (Saint Dionysius or Saint Denis or Saint Dennis) temple.

The spirit of Ama recommends that we use also this Pasiong Mahal aside from the King James Version of the Holy Bible.

 

[Robrob]

The spirit of Ama recommends that we use also this Pasiong Mahal aside from the King James Version of the Holy Bible.

What, she didn't recommend it in the original Klingon?

BTW, just out of sheer curiosity - how much money have you donated to Maria Alvaran over the years?

 

[Astreja]

I got Karpentas from “Awit at Salaysay ng Pasiong Mahal ni Hesukristong Panginoon Natin” (Song and Narration of Holy Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ) or Pasiong Mahal or Pasion, page 203 ... On page 204 are the second, third, and fourth nails of Jesus...

So you're staking your reputation, and any immortal soul you may happen to possess, on the accuracy of a Filipino songbook?

The spirit of Ama recommends that we use also this Pasiong Mahal aside from the King James Version of the Holy Bible.

I think that "the {lying and fraudulent} spirit of Ama" would recommend whatever books were readily available to the gullible people who regularly visited Maria Alvaran's cult.

 

[abaddon]

Who told you, Astreja, that “Paris wasn’t even there at the time”? Check Wikipedia, history of Paris.

There was an inconsequential shanty there.

It is just logical that before proceeding to Spain, Saint James went first to Paris. Check your map and see where Judaea and Spain are. Also, how come that first nail was in the church of Carpentras in France?

It's logical to take a 500km detour? Check your own map. Paris is in no way between Judea and Spain as you claim. It's a geography fail. Just like your claim of giant Imden being 8 hours drive from the nearest town in England. There is no place in England 8 hours drive from the nearest town. Somehow, you think that if you ignore yet another of Ama's lies, it will go away. No. Sorry. Ama is an abject liar. You admitted it.

If you cannot find the travel of Saint James to Paris is maybe because he was an obscure itinerant preacher then. We have a spirit who lived before and who knows each of us. He is the One who revealed about the floating nail and Saint James. I am just sharing to you what He revealed. It is up to you whether you will accept wholly or partially His revelations, or completely reject what He said.

That will be the "spirit" who you yourself admitted lied and made stuff up. Sure, that's a real reliable spirit. You do realise that you are lying by recycling the lies of "Ama" after you plainly admitted those lies, right? You do realise that come next July your predictions will once again fail, right?

 

[AdMan]

I got Karpentas from “Awit at Salaysay ng Pasiong Mahal ni Hesukristong Panginoon Natin” (Song and Narration of Holy Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ) or Pasiong Mahal or Pasion, page 203, to wit: “Isa ngang pakong marilag ang nasa bayang Karpentas na minamahal ng lahat kung ipagpiesta’y ang tawag Clavo Santo ang pamagat” (One beautiful nail is at the town of Karpentas that is loved by all when at feast day, it is called Clavo Santo).

On page 204 are the second, third, and fourth nails of Jesus. The second nail is at a church in Milan, Italy which San Carlos placed when he went and visited the place. The third nail of Jesus is at the diadem of Constantine I which his mother, Elena, placed. This nail is at a temple in Rome, Italy. The fourth nail of Jesus was thrown into the Adriatic Sea which did not sink and floated and ended up in Paris, France at the San Dionisio (Saint Dionysius or Saint Denis or Saint Dennis) temple.

The spirit of Ama recommends that we use also this Pasiong Mahal aside from the King James Version of the Holy Bible.

Yes, and she's wrong in telling you these folkloric stories have any historic veracity. Nails do not float. Religious objects are not called by Spanish names in France.

It's bull ****. Please stop spreading her lies.

By the way, are you going to address your own lies?

 

[Akhenaten]

I got Karpentas from “Awit at Salaysay ng Pasiong Mahal ni Hesukristong Panginoon Natin” (Song and Narration of Holy Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ) or Pasiong Mahal or Pasion, page 203, to wit: “Isa ngang pakong marilag ang nasa bayang Karpentas na minamahal ng lahat kung ipagpiesta’y ang tawag Clavo Santo ang pamagat” (One beautiful nail is at the town of Karpentas that is loved by all when at feast day, it is called Clavo Santo).

Just because that's what it's called in your little story book doesn't mean that's what the people who own the stupid fake call it.

Have you tried a Google search for "Clavo Santo". You'll be disappointed when you do.

On page 204 are the second, third, and fourth nails of Jesus. The second nail is at a church in Milan, Italy which San Carlos placed when he went and visited the place. The third nail of Jesus is at the diadem of Constantine I which his mother, Elena, placed. This nail is at a temple in Rome, Italy. The fourth nail of Jesus was thrown into the Adriatic Sea which did not sink and floated and ended up in Paris, France at the San Dionisio (Saint Dionysius or Saint Denis or Saint Dennis) temple.

Drivel. Did you miss this?

Because it's a fairytale (at best) and anything can be anywhere on the strength of whim.

As the Catholic Encyclopædia says:

Very little reliance can be placed upon the authenticity of the thirty or more holy nails which are still venerated, or which have been venerated until recent times, in such treasuries as that of Santa Croce in Rome, or those of Venice, Aachen, Escurial, Nuremberg, Prague, etc. Probably the majority began by professing to be facsimiles which had touched or contained filings from some other nail whose claim was more ancient. It is conceivable that imitations in this way may have come in a very brief space of time to be reputed originals.

Pharaoh's highlighting​

Not to mention that all of the nails were allegedly in Helena's possession after she found the one true cross in Jerusalem and she took them to Rome with her to make bridles and things for her special snowflake.

This is completely at odds with your story about the Pharisees throwing them (and the odd Roman Procurator) into the sea off the Palestinian coast.

The spirit of Ama recommends that we use also this Pasiong Mahal aside from the King James Version of the Holy Bible.

No, your crone recommends that because of its fairytale goodness and because of her (and her followers) poor command of English.

 

[Astreja]

Oh, and the story about St. James the Greater travelling to Spain is also questionable. It's possible that after he died his relics were taken there, but he died in Jerusalem in CE 44 and there are no early records of him travelling that far west.

By either route.

Epic Holy Spook Fail.

 

[pakeha]

...It is just logical that before proceeding to Spain, Saint James went first to Paris. Check your map and see where Judaea and Spain are. Also, how come that first nail was in the church of Carpentras in France?

St James the Greater^WP?
What evidence is there he ever left Jerusalem?

We've gone over the many contradictions about that relic in Carpentras earlier in the thread, remember?


Of course Pharaoh said it best

...Not to mention that all of the nails were allegedly in Helena's possession after she found the one true cross in Jerusalem and she took them to Rome with her to make bridles and things for her special snowflake.

This is completely at odds with your story about the Pharisees throwing them (and the odd Roman Procurator) into the sea off the Palestinian coast. ...

It's always interesting to see how that devotional text composed by the Spanish missionaries to the Philippines continues to influence people, PC.

...I got Karpentas from “Awit at Salaysay ng Pasiong Mahal ni Hesukristong Panginoon Natin” (Song and Narration of Holy Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ) or Pasiong Mahal or Pasion, page 203, to wit: “Isa ngang pakong marilag ang nasa bayang Karpentas na minamahal ng lahat kung ipagpiesta’y ang tawag Clavo Santo ang pamagat” (One beautiful nail is at the town of Karpentas that is loved by all when at feast day, it is called Clavo Santo).

On page 204 are the second, third, and fourth nails of Jesus. The second nail is at a church in Milan, Italy which San Carlos placed when he went and visited the place. The third nail of Jesus is at the diadem of Constantine I which his mother, Elena, placed. This nail is at a temple in Rome, Italy. The fourth nail of Jesus was thrown into the Adriatic Sea which did not sink and floated and ended up in Paris, France at the San Dionisio (Saint Dionysius or Saint Denis or Saint Dennis) temple.

The spirit of Ama recommends that we use also this Pasiong Mahal aside from the King James Version of the Holy Bible.

Still, we've discussed just how far off from the truth the Pasiong Mahal is about those relics, haven't we?

Did the floating nail end up in Carpentras or in St Denis?
Which of the bridles claimed to be owned by St Helen's special snowflake is authentic- the one in Milan or the one in Carpentras?

 

[Craig B]

... Probably because a priest took a completely ordinary local nail and lied to his congregation, telling them that it was one of the nails used at the CruciFiction.

It is one of the many phoney relics, which included the "true" cross, brought back from Jerusalem by Helen, the mother of the Emperor Constantine, in the fourth century. A tourist website on Carpentras tells us

The cathedral is host to a holy relic the "Saint Mors" brought back from the crusades. It belonged to Saint Helena who had a nail from the Holy Cross turned into a bit (horse tack) for her son emperor Constantine.

Another nail was I think attached to his helmet. These were intended to provide him (and his horse) with divine protection in battle I imagine. The nail was definitely not in Europe in the first century.

Carpentras is near Avignon, which was ruled by the Popes up to the French Revolution. This area was therefore a centre of worship of relics of various kinds. A satirical print from the early nineteenth century depicting the "Virgin's garter" being sold by auction, as a comment on this cult, may be seen at http://www.britishmuseum.org/resear...ectId=3398075&partId=1&school=13279&page=2227

 

[pakeha]

It is one of the many phoney relics, which included the "true" cross, brought back from Jerusalem by Helen, the mother of the Emperor Constantine, in the fourth century...

Helen is an interesting character in her own right and the story of how she found the nails is amusing enough:
"

The emperor deeply revered the victory-bearing Sign of the Cross of the Lord, and wanted to find the actual Cross upon which our Lord Jesus Christ was crucified. He sent his mother, Helen, to Jerusalem, providing her with a letter to St. Macarius, Patriarch of Jerusalem.

Although St. Helen was already in her declining years, she set about completing the task with enthusiasm. Searching for the Life-Creating Cross, she questioned both Christians and Jews, but her search remained unsuccessful. However, in 326, she was directed to an elderly Hebrew named Jude who stated that the Cross was buried at the Temple of Venus. St. Helen ordered that the pagan temple be demolished. After praying, the ground began to be excavated. Soon, the Tomb of the Lord was uncovered. Not far from it were three crosses, a board with the inscription ordered by Pilate, and four nails which had pierced the Lord’s Body .

In order to determine the cross on which the Savior had been crucified, St. Macarius alternately touched the crosses to a corpse. When the dead man was touched by the True Cross of the Lord, the body came to life. Having beheld the raising of the dead, everyone was convinced that the Life-Creating Cross was found.

During the discovery of the Life-Creating Cross, another miracle took place – a grievously sick woman, beneath the shadow of the Holy Cross, was healed instantly. Elder Jude and other Jews came to believe in Christ and accepted Holy Baptism. Jude received the name Cyriacus and afterwards was consecrated Bishop of Jerusalem. "
http://www.antiochian.org/node/18634

Neither wiki nor the BM, of course, but the source I quoted has its own charm.

It seems the Pasiong Mahal has mixed together several different versions of the fate of the nails used in the crucifixion, doesn't it?

 

[Craig B]

Helen is an interesting character in her own right and the story of how she found the nails is amusing enough:
...
It seems the Pasiong Mahal has mixed together several different versions of the fate of the nails used in the crucifixion, doesn't it?

Yes. The theme of throwing nails into the sea is in the early Helena stories too. Wiki on "Nail relic":

Several miracles were claimed, to prove the authenticy of these items, and St. Helena returned with a piece of the cross and the nails. The story that one nail was used to make a bridle, one was used to make the Helmet of Constantine and two were cast into the Adriatic Sea has its origins with Socrates ["Scholasticus"]

Socrates was born c 380 and wrote a history of the Church around 439 AD.

 

[pakeha]

Proof all church history is forged post 180 CE?