Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Supernaut]

Stealing might fit but torturing and murdering doesn't

As the Lord instructed Israel; go forth and multiply, Briars.

 

[Supernaut]

The upper window bars are actually a hindrance to the climb we saw on Channel 5. You obviously have not watched the whole piece.

The same can be said of Grinder.

I understand that Briars, given the clear agenda he/she follows, is forced into such mis-representation, but Grinder postures as a 'critical thinker', and it's inexcusable.

 

[acbytesla]

Just rewatched it and the bars on the upper window are definitely a help.

The climber stands on the bottom of the lower window and reaches the upper window sill moves his feet to the top of the lower window and then pulls himself up using the upper window bars.

The biggest thing the video shows is that he can reach the sill from the bottom of the lower window. Assuming F lied about closing the shutters Rudy would be able to reach the sill easily and then would have needed to unlatch the window which might require some time and effort. With gloves on he would avoid cuts and if leather no much in the way of material left behind.

The climb and entry would not have been as easy as portrayed but clearly possible.

I see your point Grinder but with the window broke, Rudy can reach inside and pull himself up and through about as easy. Maybe, slightly a bit harder, but I really doubt it would be much harder.

 

[Supernaut]

I see your point Grinder but with the window broke, Rudy can reach inside and pull himself up and through about as easy. Maybe, slightly a bit harder, but I really doubt it would be much harder.

ACBT, have you watched it?

The guy drops back down to shoulder-level with the ledge, places his fore-arms on it and then rotates them inwards, taking his weight on to one hand and then the other to haul his lower-body up to it.

Without the bars this would have been considerably easier.

 

[acbytesla]

ACBT, have you watched it?

The guy drops back down to shoulder-level with the ledge, places his fore-arms on it and then rotates them inwards, taking his weight on to one hand and then the other to haul his lower-body up to it.

Without the bars this would have been considerably easier.

I've watched it a few times, he definitely grabs the bars on the window. I don't think that the bars makes much of a difference. But we are both just speculating.

Supernaut, I think this is all nonsense. An exercise in intellectual masturbation. It was doable. Without the bars, with the bars, Through F's window, through the balcony. Pretty easy any of these ways.

 

[RWVBWL]

1 "Hair of The Dog", please!

For one thing the girl friends said she didn't drink at the pizza party. If she didn't drink there or during the day she would have had to be extremely drunk at 5 am when she returned home that morning. So drunk that she would probably not been able to walk.

It also means that if her girlfriends were also that drunk their memories from that Halloween party would be of little value.

The police first thought she had met and made a date at that party but her girl friends said no and the police story changed to Meredith had no responsibility. Did she meet someone and have a drink? Could that someone have been the blond man reported by Rudy?

The rate at which alcohol is metabolized is the same for virtually everyone regardless of their height, weight, sex, race or other such characteristics.

Alcohol is metabolized at the rate of .015 of blood alcohol concentration (BAC) every hour. 1 Thus a person with a very high BAC of .15 will have no measurable alcohol in the bloodstream after ten hours (.15 divided by .015 = 10). Here are some other examples:

BAC Level Metabolism Time in Hours
.10 6.66
.08 5.33
.05 3.33
.02 1.33


From this link Google "alcohol processing time" first hit.

As you can see it would take around a .25 at 5 am to still have a full equivalent at 9 pm.

0.20 Loss of motor control; must have assistance standing or walking; mental confusion; needs medical assistance.

0.30 and higher Severe intoxication; potential loss of consciousness; needs hospitalization.

That sounds like your typical student night out in the UK. A&E on a Friday and Saturday night is full of young students that have lost consciousness - but most of the bordeines go home, pass out and stumble around the next day with alcohol in their system. I wouldn't be surprised of they were still doing shots at the end of the night - it is usually keep going until someone is sick or passes out

Man,
I went out to meet a cute gal I've known for 13 years at a bar last night, drank more, stopped before midnight, kissed my 33 year old gal pal on the lips, went home, got sick this mornin', still feel the effects, though I stopped drinking over 12 hours ago, just had a "Hair of the Dog"*, already feeling better as I edit surf photo's...

Maybe Meredith had 1 too?
RW


* - "Hair of the dog" is a colloquial expression in the English language predominantly used to refer to alcohol that is consumed with the aim of lessening the effects of a hangover

 

[Samson]

It took 10 seconds, not 10 minutes. My guess is that Rudy broke the window and waited 5 or 10 minutes to see if there was a reaction...no..then it is safe to climb the wall and get inside. Breaking into that cottage was easy, it's as Bill said, it's not rocket science. Seriously, you can't be this dense. Getting in through that window would have been very very easy for an athlete like Rudy. Surely, you can concede that.

Were Briars to concede that getting through the window was easy for Rudy, and he is batting for three prosecutors three judges and three websites amongst others, he would be conceding there was reasonable doubt about the staging of the break in, and that the Hellmann verdict was correct, if legally incomplete.
Therefore such concession seems not possible.
I am curious if there is a narrative consistent with Rudy breaking in, and K+S involvement. I have been unable to imagine one.

 

[Supernaut]

I've watched it a few times, he definitely grabs the bars on the window. I don't think that the bars makes much of a difference. But we are both just speculating.

Supernaut, I think this is all nonsense. An exercise in intellectual masturbation. It was doable. Without the bars, with the bars, Through F's window, through the balcony. Pretty easy any of these ways.

Charming.

But no, it isn't. It's simply a matter of stating the blindingly ******* obvious. i.e what the climber actually demonstrates.

The guy DROPS BACK BELOW THE WINDOW LEDGE AFTER USING THE NEW BARS AS A HANDHOLD, AND THEN RE-ASCENDS WITHOUT USING THEM.

FFS!!!

But otherwise, I agree with you - lots of wankers here.

 

[acbytesla]

Were Briars to concede that getting through the window was easy for Rudy, and he is batting for three prosecutors three judges and three websites amongst others, he would be conceding there was reasonable doubt about the staging of the break in, and that the Hellmann verdict was correct, if legally incomplete.
Therefore such concession seems not possible.
I am curious if there is a narrative consistent with Rudy breaking in, and K+S involvement. I have been unable to imagine one.

I don't actually expect him to concede this point Samson. That would mean he was intellectually honest. Something I have yet to see from the PGP.

Giving up on this fact makes the staging of the crime, more doubtful. And the staging of the crime is one of those points that they will never give in to even though it is obvious that the window was in fact not hard to climb up and through. It looks hard at first glance, but the bars on the window below makes it easy for a guy like Rudy, impossible for the average 30 35 year old with a few pounds on them. But a a skinny guy like Rudy who spends all day playing hoops, this would have been a piece of cake.

Their problem, is they need the burglary to be staged, but there really is no solid evidence that burglary was staged. The window IS EASY to climb. So like Machiavelli and Crini's absurd suggestion that the knife stain was "COMPATIBLE" with the big knife, even though that is ***** absurd, they will cling to the also ***** absurd claim that this was hard to climb. Just once I would like to read from one of those guys a little intellectual honesty. But I guess that is mutually exclusive of a guilter.

 

[Supernaut]

I see your point Grinder but with the window broke, Rudy can reach inside and pull himself up and through about as easy. Maybe, slightly a bit harder, but I really doubt it would be much harder.

What on Earth are you wittering about here?

Do you still not get it? Really?

1 - Guede throws a rock through the window, to sound out occupants and possible near-by observers, and (primarily) creates a means to reach in and open the window.

2 - Guede climbs to shoulder height with window-ledge some minutes later, removes some glass slivers from window frame, then reaches in and un-latches window.

3- he either descends and make sure he's still unobserved before re-ascending (most likely), or carries on with the climb and enters WITH EASE through the open window.

 

[toto]

Charming.

But no, it isn't. It's simply a matter of stating the blindingly ******* obvious. i.e what the climber actually demonstrates.

The guy DROPS BACK BELOW THE WINDOW LEDGE AFTER USING THE NEW BARS AS A HANDHOLD, AND THEN RE-ASCENDS WITHOUT USING THEM.

FFS!!!

But otherwise, I agree with you - lots of wankers here.

Ricardo, the Channel five climber:

"It's not a problem to open.. And if you want you can broke (sic) the glass and clean up the pieces of the glass that remain in the windows and then you can put up yourself (sic) and go on (sic) the windows without the bars -it's not difficult and enter in the house...It's not a problem, it's not a problem."

To have actually demonstrated all that he would have had to break the window which the C5 climber wouldn't have been allowed to do! I always thought the difficult bit was the first part, getting to where the lawyer got to in that well known earlier photo . The climber made it so easy! But of course he did have the grill on the lower window, which was there originally. Clearly the bars are now in place for a very good reason.

 

[Grinder]

I've watched it a few times, he definitely grabs the bars on the window. I don't think that the bars makes much of a difference. But we are both just speculating.

Thanks Tesla,

At 37 secs he stands on the bottom of the bottom window and reaches the sill of the top window.

by 41 he has moved his feet to the top of of the bottom window. His head is now above the sill. At this point Rudy could have knocked out the glass near the latch and reached up to unlatch the window.

by 42 he has grabbed the bars and pulls himself up. Btw, he uses both feet against the wall. The camera cut makes it difficult to see precisely but by 43 he has his right foot on the sill while grabbing the bars with both hands. Then he sits never letting go of the bars.

It is clear that he uses the bars and that they make it easier than it would have been climbing and opening the window stretching his hand and part of arm through the broken window.

 

[Supernaut]

Ricardo, the Channel five climber:

"It's not a problem to open.. And if you want you can broke (sic) the glass and clean up the pieces of the glass that remain in the windows and then you can put up yourself (sic) and go on (sic) the windows without the bars -it's not difficult and enter in the house...It's not a problem, it's not a problem."

To have actually demonstrated all that he would have had to break the window which the C5 climber wouldn't have been allowed to do! I always thought the difficult bit was the first part, getting to where the lawyer got to in that well known earlier photo . The climber made it so easy! But of course he did have the grill on the lower window, which was there originally. Clearly the bars are now in place for a very good reason.

Guede could have removed the shards and opened the window while sitting on the ledge, rather than (as I just proposed) standing at shoulder-height with the ledge.

Either way, this could have done during one OR two climbs [ETA > well, no - his ending up sitting on the ledge would have necessitated only ONE climb].

Whatever; it's obvious that it was easy - REALLY easy - for him gain entry via that window.

 

[toto]

Thanks Tesla,

At 37 secs he stands on the bottom of the bottom window and reaches the sill of the top window.

by 41 he has moved his feet to the top of of the bottom window. His head is now above the sill. At this point Rudy could have knocked out the glass near the latch and reached up to unlatch the window.

by 42 he has grabbed the bars and pulls himself up. Btw, he uses both feet against the wall. The camera cut makes it difficult to see precisely but by 43 he has his right foot on the sill while grabbing the bars with both hands. Then he sits never letting go of the bars.

It is clear that he uses the bars and that they make it easier than it would have been climbing and opening the window stretching his hand and part of arm through the broken window.

Surely the pertinent part of that video is from 1.11? Although the usefulness of the grill in the lower window is well demonstrated in the first part.

 

[Strozzi]

It makes no sense to choose a point where someone could exit the car park at any time. The 10 minutes is your time and hardly respects the climb. The demo video by the expert climber had the advantage of window bars to grip and no need to remove glass to enter. By your scenario a pedestrian hearing the window smash exiting the car park could have been crossed the street to the gate and watched Rudy pick glass out of the sill at about 8:50. While he is rummaging in the room and sitting on the toilet police could have even been called. There arrival would could have coincided with his attack on Meredith. The other points of entry have the advantage of virtually no foot traffic , and certainly no unexpected traffic like that near the car park.

Briars, I think you make some good points. What it really comes down to, though, is not what any of us think is the most wise or logical, but what Rudy was comfortable doing. He may have been smart about it and measured his exposure - perhaps even throwing the rock through the window and moving away for a while to see if anyone emerged into view from from the garage or along the road - or he might have been very stupid about it and taken few precautions and just broke the window, waited for one minute to see that no inside light went on - and climbed down from the car park to the lower window and commenced his climb. None of us know how smart or careless. Those of us who think Rudy committed the crime alone realize that Rudy broke in the way he did because he was comfortable doing it there.

My guess is that for burglars - or at least Rudy - times passes very quickly when they pause to wait to see if there is a reaction to a noise or movement that they want to keep secret. Part of it is probably their heightened adrenaline and part may be due to their desire to get moving again. What I mean is that although they may think they are waiting for a reasonable period of time, it may in fact be much briefer than they think. They may think they stayed still or stayed quiet for 5 minutes when it might really have been just 2 or 3 minutes.

If Meredith had not discovered Rudy's presence in the bathroom - if she did not hear him or see the light on to cause her to open the bathroom door - the smart thing that Rudy should have done is stay quiet and still for a long time - maybe several hours - until she went to sleep and he could tiptoe out the front door. Of course, he would not have known it was locked and he could not get out. In that case, he should have quietly gone back into Filomena's bedroom and lowered himself out of Filomena's window.

But Rudy was not smart. Either he was spotted or he compromised himself by moving or making noise and being detected - or he, without having been detected, with knife in hand savagely chose to quickly attack Meredith.

The bottom line here is that Rudy chose to act on impulse in throwing the rock and then climbing up, based on what seemed OK to him. He did not evaluate all the factors our way.

 

[Supernaut]

Thanks Tesla,

At 37 secs he stands on the bottom of the bottom window and reaches the sill of the top window.

by 41 he has moved his feet to the top of of the bottom window. His head is now above the sill. At this point Rudy could have knocked out the glass near the latch and reached up to unlatch the window.

by 42 he has grabbed the bars and pulls himself up. Btw, he uses both feet against the wall. The camera cut makes it difficult to see precisely but by 43 he has his right foot on the sill while grabbing the bars with both hands. Then he sits never letting go of the bars.

It is clear that he uses the bars and that they make it easier than it would have been climbing and opening the window stretching his hand and part of arm through the broken window.

Are you watching the entire C5 doco, or just a Yootoob clip?

Because this is BS.

THE GUY DROPS BACK BELOW THE LEDGE AND THEN GETS BACK UP, ENDING UP SITTING ON IT, WITHOUT USING THE BARS AS A HAND-HOLD.

You ****.

 

[acbytesla]

Thanks Tesla,

At 37 secs he stands on the bottom of the bottom window and reaches the sill of the top window.

by 41 he has moved his feet to the top of of the bottom window. His head is now above the sill. At this point Rudy could have knocked out the glass near the latch and reached up to unlatch the window.

by 42 he has grabbed the bars and pulls himself up. Btw, he uses both feet against the wall. The camera cut makes it difficult to see precisely but by 43 he has his right foot on the sill while grabbing the bars with both hands. Then he sits never letting go of the bars.

It is clear that he uses the bars and that they make it easier than it would have been climbing and opening the window stretching his hand and part of arm through the broken window.

I'll acknowledge when I think you are right Grinder. We may disagree on certain things, but not this.

At 41 to 43 where the the shot is from a second camera he is holding the upper bars. But if the window is broken. He can stand on the lower bar and deal with the glass. at which point he can then reach inside the window and get about as good a grip as he can on the bars. It's also important to recognize that the grate keeps the climber more outside the window frame whereas with it gone, it's much easier to get one's weight balanced on the sill.

I really don't think it would be much harder, if at all, without the window grate.

 

[Supernaut]

I'll acknowledge when I think you are right Grinder. We may disagree on certain things, but not this.

At 41 to 43 where the the shot is from a second camera he is holding the upper bars. But if the window is broken. He can stand on the lower bar and deal with the glass. at which point he can then reach inside the window and get about as good a grip as he can on the bars. It's also important to recognize that the grate keeps the climber more outside the window frame whereas with it gone, it's much easier to get one's weight balanced on the sill.

I really don't think it would be much harder, if at all, without the window grate.

LoL.

Get a room, you two.

 

[acbytesla]

Are you watching the entire C5 doco, or just a Yootoob clip?

Because this is BS.

THE GUY DROPS BACK BELOW THE LEDGE AND THEN GETS BACK UP, ENDING UP SITTING ON IT, WITHOUT USING THE BARS AS A HAND-HOLD.

You ****.

Look at again Supernaut right at 41 seconds. Right at the moment the POV changes from one camera to the other. You can see him grabbing on to the grate.

 

[Supernaut]

Look at again Supernaut right at 41 seconds. Right at the moment the POV changes from one camera to the other. You can see him grabbing on to the grate.

As I asked Grinder;

are you watching the complete doco, or a yootoob clip?