Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[davefoc]

... Whats next out you? Those icy eyes Knox happened to be born with?

Before he tackles that one, I'd like to see him take a shot at the Knox lied about the locked door to try to keep the police from breaking into Kercher's room theory. That seems like it might stress even Grinder's world class devil's advocate skills.

 

[RandyN]

“video of the autopsy showed Dr. Lalli had in fact tied each end of the upper intestine, just as Umani Ronchi said he should have.”

Excerpt From: Sollecito, Raffaele. “Honor Bound: My Journey to Hell and Back with Amanda Knox.” Gallery Books, 2012-09-18T06:00:00+00:00.

Grinder, doubtless this ground has been covered already unbeknownst to me. Is Raffaele incorrect when he says that Dr. Lalli did tie off the intestines correctly?

No Grinder is wrong! He seems to be enjoying his wrongness though.

 

[RandyN]

Before he tackles that one, I'd like to see him take a shot at the Knox lied about the locked door to try to keep the police from breaking into Kercher's room theory. That seems like it might stress even Grinder's world class devil's advocate skills.

Well yes sure...even though for the simplest of minds this is easily explained and then logically written off as a translation error of Filomena.

Filomena had poor English skills. Laura was better...but she was not present. Filomena is also an emotional flake, not smart enough to take charge in Italy and with full command of the Italian language. Instead, she orders Amanda to call police knowing perfectly well that Amanda's language skills are just not up to that task at that point.

I'm guessing here but very early in the discovery of the body Filomena had to call her lawyer since he did show up at the crime scene while they were all standing outside. (Filomena with her hand stuck firmly inside the rear jean pocket of her BF...which is in a pic...funny how the press missed that since it seems so much more "dirty" than a comforting brief kiss between AK and RS?)

 

[RandyN]

Her last meal was still in her stomach, some of the ingredients still indentifiable, probably in its entirety (it contained 0.5 litres, nearly a pint), so this is completely moot.

No not moot at all. The prosecution contends that anything that passed into the duodenum could have slipped further down into the small intestine. Except for the fact that Lalli properly tied off the sections which now makes this speculation baseless.

No material even began to transition into the duodenum... this movement is well studied and published and charted. A TOD suggested near what the prosecution claims would make MK a statistical freak so far off the charts that she would have to have had severe digestive issues that would not be undiagnosed.

 

[Grinder]

That's off the top of your head, I assume?

People are regularly busted for drink driving 6 or more hours after finishing a bender.

That's here in the UK, which means they still have the equivalent of half a bottle of wine or more in their bloodstreams.

No it is from multiple sources on how long it takes for alcohol to leave the system. This was discussed more than once here.

I'd say it is more likely that your comment comes from another part of the body.

This is often reckoned to be equivalent to two pints of ordinary strength beer which, for a man of average weight, is broadly true, but should not be used as a general rule - see Drink-Driving Guidelines. It is impossible to draw an accurate correlation between the amount of alcohol consumed and the resulting peak BAC, and anyone trying to "drink up to the limit" runs a serious risk of exceeding it.

Whatever.

Whatever

 

[davefoc]

The issue of the Kercher's BAC has popped up a few times since I've been following this thread.

Could somebody explain what the significance of it is?

 

[kwill]

Sorry to be bringing up things that have obviously been thrashed to pieces over and over again. There's an unbelievable quantity of wrong information available about this case!

With respect to the time of death, I read in Massei that the prosecution witnesses claimed it was usual for a starchy meal to take 6 - 7 hours to be digested.

In any case, it was indicated that a farinaceous meal would require 6 to 7 hours (see report of Umani Ronchi, Cingolani, April, page 45)

The problem I see with that is that digestion is a process . . . it doesn't happen all at once, but over time. There should have been some elements of that meal in her duodenum (first curl of the small intestine) if she was still alive at 11:30, unless we're to believe that nothing at all moved out of her stomach between the time she swallowed the first bite (recalled by the English women to be between 5:30 and 6:30) and five or six hours later. The prosecution witness said it would 6 or 7 hours to complete digestion, not to begin it.

Am I reading that incorrectly?

Then there is the alcohol (Lalli said about as much as you'd get from a few ounces of wine) and the piece of mushroom in her esophagus. That mushroom is weird . . . her whole dinner meal still in her stomach, and she's taking a bite of mushroom. She dies with it stuck in her esophagus. How does this happen?

The English women all said none of them drank anything but water with their meal, so somehow Meredith must have had a drink after she got home. Was there a glass dirty?

Finally, the idea that she spent one or two hours alone still wearing her jacket and shoes, not getting her laundry, not calling her parents, not using her computer, not making any other phone calls, not sending any texts, not going to bed . . . is not credible.

I still think the stomach contents and phone usage/lack thereof mean she didn't live past about 9:30 pm.

 

[RandyN]

Easy now big fella, I wasn't challenging you or taking a shot at you. I can definitely read, but I'll admit my comprehension seems to be faltering lately, so forgive me if I overlooked the obvious.

Previously, you said:




Here's part of Grinder's quote (what is the source of this quote Grinder?):




I was just curious where you're getting the idea he apologized or if you are just assuming he did.

I save a lot of posts and sources for future reference in this case but I like to keep verifiable sources when possible, not speculation. So, I'm merely trying to clarify whether the apology was real or assumed.

thx

Hummm, I see. OK, well nothing in Grinders link confirms that the lawyer did not get the computer or that the police still have it.

This is old data and I am not great at archives. I know someone who could have this in a flash...do you know Hans?

Lets try logically to explain Guedes visit to the hallway of the Perugia law office. Why does he happen to show up there? Thirsty? Sudden need to use a bathroom? Or what else possibly would get him in there? Hummm

 

[Bill Williams]

There are many who read here for the sole purpose of making sure that the memory of Meredith Kercher is respected and honoured.

I post this, really, with that in mind. In what way shape or form is this wrongful prosecution of AK and RS part of that? How many times do Italian prosecutors get to change basic things to do with that wrongful prosecution?

It begins to look like a vendetta.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/525325/20131126/amanda-knox-trial-florence-meredith-kercher-murdered.htm

(Prosecutor Alessandro Crini) changed tack from the prosecution's previous assertion that Kercher was killed because she had refused to take part in a brutal sex game. He told the Florence court that a sexual motive was a side issue and that the killing was sparked instead by a row over a dirty toilet.

Crini said that Rudy Guede, a drifter from the Ivory Coast, had defecated in the apartment's toilet but left it unflushed and that had sparked a row between the two women.

Crini, apparently, thinks that RS and AK were involved in the stabbing... there simply is no evidence at all... as per the RIS Carabinieri report to the Nencini court.... that they were involved, esp. in the manner described.

This goes completely contrary to one of the main reasons why the ISC last march reversed the previous acquittals! How many times do they got to make this up?

 

[Grinder]

Before he tackles that one, I'd like to see him take a shot at the Knox lied about the locked door to try to keep the police from breaking into Kercher's room theory. That seems like it might stress even Grinder's world class devil's advocate skills.

I have written that the locked door issue has no merit. There is no way that Filomena could have known and it makes no sense that Amanda wanted to control the investigation but now wanted the PP to go away.

I answered Kwill's questions as to how the PGP would address the duodenum evidence question and later when some numskull (not you) went bananas I explained what I was doing.

The improper tying off was a speculation during and after the first trial. Lalli being thrown off the case may have reduced the chances to quiz him on it.

He [Introna] recalled the reports by Dr. Lalli and the other experts stating that under macroscopic examination, the stomach contents revealed a piece of apple and floury fragments which might have been from the crumble or from the pizza. He also recalled that the emptying of the stomach under standard conditions starts around three and a half hours after the start of a meal, say between three and four hours after, and that the term "emptying" indicates the stomach emptying its contents (into the duodenum). He asserted that "knowing that Meredith's meal started at 18:30 pm, knowing that there were about 500 cc of stomach contents, and knowing from the autopsy that there was no pathology of the stomach...which could slow down digestion, and above all", as reported by Dr. Lalli, knowing that the duodenum was still empty "because the stomach had not even begun to empty itself" (page 19 of the transcripts), the time of death must lie between 21:30 pm (three hours after 18:30) and 22:30 pm (four hours after 18:30), and that this timing agreed with the less rigid
133
data provided by the analysis of the hypostasis, of the rigor mortis and of the body temperature, considering the uncertainty of the body weight which was guessed without weighing the body.

There Randy, a little fresh meat for you. Why would Introna say 3 to 3 1/2 hours when most every source says 2 hours? Could it be that a 6 pm start of eating would make the murder at 8 pm? A 6:30 dinner would be a 8:30 TOD.

 

[davefoc]

I have written that the locked door issue has no merit. There is no way that Filomena could have known and it makes no sense that Amanda wanted to control the investigation but now wanted the PP to go away.

...

Grinder, I had put you on a pedestal. I thought surely if there was anybody that could figure out a defense for this little piece of clap trap (I like throwing in a Randi word every now and then) it was you. But you folded without a whimper? Jeez, what's this world coming to.

 

[andreajo]

I answered Kwill's questions as to how the PGP would address the duodenum evidence question and later when some numskull (not you) went bananas I explained what I was doing.

Thanks for explaining what you were doing, Grinder. I thought I was being civil, not going bananas. I thought maybe I had missed something that had been discussed previously and was just asking for clarification.

 

[Strozzi]

. .. I'm guessing that as she ran away from him towards her room that she screamed while doing so. This caused an instant response from RG to chase down and silence her. Just a guess though...but an educated guess at least. This would explain the pants down story and un-flushed toilet and several other small evidences.

Randy, I think Rudy would have doused the bathroom light if he could have gotten to the wall switch quickly enough and would have pulled out his knife He would have maintained silence. And quickly hoisted his pants up if he had a minute to do so. He would have been in a semi-crouch position in front of the toilet with an arm ready to jab forward with knife in his hand waiting fearfully for someone to open the bathroom door.

 

[acbytesla]

I can't help but wonder if Meredith came into the cottage and then for safety sake locked the door behind her with the key locking Rudy into the house. Meredith then heads back to her bedroom. Rudy then comes out of the bathroom and might have left out the front door, but because Meredith locked it, his only choice is to go out through Filomena's window and exiting through the window is actually scarier than climbing through it. So he ends up confronting Meredith in her bedroom.

 

[Supernaut]

.....

You are just messing around I know...playing with the noobs perhaps...but you are muddying the water of something that is fairly clear. Whats next out you? Those icy eyes Knox happened to be born with?

LoL.

Or the beady ones Mignini was born with?

 

[Supernaut]

No not moot at all. The prosecution contends that anything that passed into the duodenum could have slipped further down into the small intestine. Except for the fact that Lalli properly tied off the sections which now makes this speculation baseless.

No material even began to transition into the duodenum... this movement is well studied and published and charted. A TOD suggested near what the prosecution claims would make MK a statistical freak so far off the charts that she would have to have had severe digestive issues that would not be undiagnosed.

You misunderstand.

NONE of Meredith's last meal (a light supper of pizza begun at c. 18.00, and an apple-crumble an hour or so later) would have been in her stomach after c. 22.00 - 22.30.

The pathology would allow for a TOD as early as 20.00, but definitely no later than c. 22.00.

I'm saying that Grinder's, er, proposal that it was "strange" that she still had food in her stomach when she was killed, 3 or so hours after she'd eaten, is what's moot.

 

[Dan O.]

... and the piece of mushroom in her esophagus. That mushroom is weird . . . her whole dinner meal still in her stomach, and she's taking a bite of mushroom. She dies with it stuck in her esophagus. How does this happen?

evidence?

From a brief external inspection, he noted diffuse blood staining on the face and the presence of some wounds on the neck. The main wound was located at the level of the left side of the neck; from this wound issued "what is called a mushroom" of air mixed with blood (page 11). The same "mushroom" issued from the mouth and nostrils.

He confirmed that the time of death, on the basis of the elements available, should be indicated as having occurred from twenty to thirty hours before 12:50 am on November 3, 2007; thus between 20:50 pm on November 1 and 04:50 am on November 2. He did not remember whether traces of mushrooms had been found.

Professor Torre also spoke of asphyxia, attributing it to the cause of death and
stressing the presence of so-called ‚mushroom-shaped mucus‛ which could be seen protruding and coming out of the major wound, and which is symptomatic of death by asphyxia, as well as the occurrence of an invasion of the airways by liquid, in this case by blood.

 

[Grinder]

The issue of the Kercher's BAC has popped up a few times since I've been following this thread.

Could somebody explain what the significance of it is?

For one thing the girl friends said she didn't drink at the pizza party. If she didn't drink there or during the day she would have had to be extremely drunk at 5 am when she returned home that morning. So drunk that she would probably not been able to walk.

It also means that if her girlfriends were also that drunk their memories from that Halloween party would be of little value.

The police first thought she had met and made a date at that party but her girl friends said no and the police story changed to Meredith had no responsibility. Did she meet someone and have a drink? Could that someone have been the blond man reported by Rudy?

The rate at which alcohol is metabolized is the same for virtually everyone regardless of their height, weight, sex, race or other such characteristics.

Alcohol is metabolized at the rate of .015 of blood alcohol concentration (BAC) every hour. 1 Thus a person with a very high BAC of .15 will have no measurable alcohol in the bloodstream after ten hours (.15 divided by .015 = 10). Here are some other examples:

BAC Level Metabolism Time in Hours
.10 6.66
.08 5.33
.05 3.33
.02 1.33


From this link Google "alcohol processing time" first hit.

As you can see it would take around a .25 at 5 am to still have a full equivalent at 9 pm.

0.20 Loss of motor control; must have assistance standing or walking; mental confusion; needs medical assistance.

0.30 and higher Severe intoxication; potential loss of consciousness; needs hospitalization.

 

[Grinder]

Thanks for explaining what you were doing, Grinder. I thought I was being civil, not going bananas. I thought maybe I had missed something that had been discussed previously and was just asking for clarification.

My apologies. I was just having fun with the bananas remark. I know that sometimes no allowance is given here.

I do see a problem with the duodenum as there should have been something there by 8:30. I don't understand why Introna Raf's expert would have made the case that it would highly unusual for nothing to be by 9:30 latest and they had there alibi.

 

[Supernaut]

For one thing the girl friends said she didn't drink at the pizza party. If she didn't drink there or during the day she would have had to be extremely drunk at 5 am when she returned home that morning. So drunk that she would probably not been able to walk.

It also means that if her girlfriends were also that drunk their memories from that Halloween party would be of little value.

The police first thought she had met and made a date at that party but her girl friends said no and the police story changed to Meredith had no responsibility. Did she meet someone and have a drink? Could that someone have been the blond man reported by Rudy?

The rate at which alcohol is metabolized is the same for virtually everyone regardless of their height, weight, sex, race or other such characteristics.

Alcohol is metabolized at the rate of .015 of blood alcohol concentration (BAC) every hour. 1 Thus a person with a very high BAC of .15 will have no measurable alcohol in the bloodstream after ten hours (.15 divided by .015 = 10). Here are some other examples:

BAC Level Metabolism Time in Hours
.10 6.66
.08 5.33
.05 3.33
.02 1.33


From this link Google "alcohol processing time" first hit.

As you can see it would take around a .25 at 5 am to still have a full equivalent at 9 pm.

0.20 Loss of motor control; must have assistance standing or walking; mental confusion; needs medical assistance.

0.30 and higher Severe intoxication; potential loss of consciousness; needs hospitalization.

A fascinating area of research is the metabolising of alcohol by members of various, er, ethnicities.

(I could have said "races", but that would be "racist")