Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

It's a bit unconvincing. She could have met him again but nothing happened. We know that he was at the downstairs apartment and that they talked to each other on that occasion. We know that Guede told his friends "I'd like to bang her" and this suggests he didn't do that by that time.
Moreover Knox's MySpace was not even very well updated, if I recall that correctly. She didn't have a 24h internet access at that time.

Wow. First of all this man is completely unknown, then you completely invent that it must have been Rudy.

But she had already given her phone number to a drug dealer,

You just can't keep repeating that, as if by repeating it makes it true. Please note how your claim has now migrated. First of all you say a drug dealer's phone number was found in her phone (which it wasn't)... and now you have her giving out her phone number to a drug dealer. Sheesh. Give your head a shake, or do you just make this up as you go along?

then she had met Juve or some other, and she also started to have some coming outs about Meredith and Giacomo that we may define seductive (suggesting that she would be confortable being seen naked by her friend's boyfriends)

Where do you make up this stuff? No wonder you resist Massei's finding that there was no psychopathology in Knox or Sollecito.... you are comfortable in simply making things up about her. Sheesh.

and even jealous (her attempts to attract attention). Then, it was I think Sophie who recalled how Meredith found it strange about Amanda that she would be infatuated so quickly with guys and start intimate relations so instantly.
Knox seemed very ready to be completely caught by someone but also quite volatile. There is something immature, even childish, in her intensity and changes. So I really find it difficult to make inferences based on the assumption that Knox would be easilly predictable.

This one makes no sense.

This is why you get such grief for posting these things. You have no idea whether ANY of this is true or not, but it flows off your keyboard nonetheless.

 

[Mary_H]

I guess acbytesla doesn't have younger sisters.
I do. I'm astonished about this stereotypical guessing about women tastes. He really seems to not have a clue about the kind of things women may call "a beautiful man".

The standards for beauty are essentially universal. If nobody here thinks Rudy is beautiful, then Amanda probably did not, either.

 

[Bill Williams]

Ehm, no there is no number but... this is another strange element in fact. If she really liked him (as she writes in her page, and there is no particular reason to believe she lies on her MySpace) in a situation like this, you would expect that they would probably exchange their phone numbers. The fact they didn't do that despite they liked each other, is itself not what you would expect. Unless they were both shy people (they were not). But what if the man didn't have a cell phone?

My word. This is simply picking and choosing what you think someone lies about (when it suits you) or does not lie about (when it suits you).

That's even before considering the silliness about the cell phones. Sheesh.

 

[Machiavelli]

Are you saying that the statements made by Amanda before being vetted by the SC were made available to all the defense attorneys?

Absolutely yes. They were all available to all defence attorneys and civil party attorneys as well.

What do you mean by minutes? Are there transcripts of the interrogations?

The interrogations don't have a transcript, the document is a redacted paper called verbale which I translate here as minutes.

I see no reason why everything needs to be open before charges are filed. Of course this is another problem with the Italian system because they can wait a year to charge.

You said it youself. They can wait actually even two or three years under some conditions; moreover, they can even keep the existence of the investigation secret, meaning unknown to the person investigated and to his/her attorneys (they can keep you unaware of being suspect), for six months, one year, or for longer in some conditions.
Investigation is a sensitive area and it's not easy to find a compromise on principle between security, liberties, civil parties interests, suspect's rights.
The Italian system is designed giving a very strong control power to the investigating judge, which it is in fact a court and this means when parties are advised everything will go in the open.

 

[Dan O.]

It's pretty clear, she didn't know who this beautiful black man was.

It's also obvious that it wasn't Rudy or she would have made a comment of the reunion.

If anyone were interested in tracking it down, I have a lead. Though it may be a fake and is not likely to be productive. For that matter, what's the point of identifying some random black man that someone once met in a cafe?

 

[Bill Williams]

Her whole diary was photocopied, and put into the investigation file.

It was stolen and leaked, Machiavelli.... it has no business ending up anywhere other than the investigation file. It was all part of the PR effort Mignini relied on to try to sluttify someone against who they otherwise had no case.

It is amazing you can answer so succinctly kwill's question.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>But the point of view doesn't change anything. The whole topic about a "honor student" status awarded by a US university is irrelevant to the point. It doesn't affect my idea of Knox as a person who was "only living to pursue pleasure" (as Sollecito described her),

Maybe it should affect your idea. As it turns out, Amanda got a great deal of pleasure from studying.

and who would be ready to have sexual encounters with a person that fits the profile of Guede,

Still no evidence of that, and there never will be.

despite she had also an intense relation with Sollecito. Also the other details that I mentioned fit the scenario. It's not that this "undermines" her: this is just the the person she was at that time; it may undermine later clichés which are attached preposterously to build a rhetoric in her defence, making her her look like an 'alien' in the scenario (seeking for a cliché, like trying to convey a 'picture' that some may unconsciously associate with the words "honors student").

The later "clichés" were not later -- they all were realities of Amanda's life before she went to Perugia, where she was indeed, an alien in a preposterous scenario.

There would be no reason to try to salvage her reputation if someone hadn't tried to destroy it in the first place.

 

[RWVBWL]

We know that Rudy had his apartment at Via del Canerino but, actually, the problem is: who could keep track of what Rudy was doing at the moment? Who knows what Rudy was doing? Over the latest time, it appears that it was a problem for his friends and relatives to know about that too.

Rudy had no real job, he did not attend school to further his education, though he lived in a collegiate town, and apparently did not have a girlfriend. Esh, the dude apparently wasn't even getting lucky with the Spanish girls that lived above him.

What was Guede doing?

I don't know,
but I surely wonder how he was paying that $320 Euro a month rent to live in the apartment at Via del Canerino?

 

[Machiavelli]

And was the investigation file made public by the attorneys?

The investigation file is not public, and it is not even only one, not in one place - there are things deposited at the investigating judge's office, and things which are elsewhere. I think the diary was deposited with the investigating judge. But even if it's not public, there is still an alarming number of people who have a right to access it. All the defendants attorneys, first of all. This includes attorneys of Sollecito, Lumumba and Guede. And also civil parties plaintiffs, which means Maresca, Fabiani, Perna, possibly also Tattanelli's attorney (if she had one already).
Theoretically any of these people could leak anything.

This week we had recordings of intercepted phone calls with the Minister of Justice speaking, picked from an investigation file, which were aired on tv. Some people complain about this breach of privacy saying it's a shame, some other people want it.

 

[Mary_H]

What I found most disturbing in Knox's comment about the "most beautiful black man he ever met", is not his looking but the fact that she never revealed his name. Not even in her book.
Though, she knew for sure because this was a person to whom she promised they would meet again after her return from Germany.
I find it disturbing because you may count black men attending bars in Via Garibaldi just like you know your neighbours. Can you imagine how small the place is? How little the bars? Who is this unknown second black man? It should be extremly easy to identify him and find him if we just had his name.

Oh for god's sake -- I chat with people in my neighborhood all the time and tell them I hope to see them again. I NEVER get their names.

 

[Kaosium]

Here is a link that discusses a little bit of her 2011 tactics. She said in effect that the independent experts had to be more specific with their request, but it is beyond me how they could know how the forensic police named their files.

Ah, thanks for reminding me of this piece!

Following one of the links I was also reminded of the fact that Conti and Vecchiotti were commissioned in January of 2011. On April 7th Dr. Conti writes to the judge that the police labs have not been forthcoming and they require “everything integral to the investigation of the two items of evidence.”


They never receive the EDFs, and they don't even get the electropherograms with the peak area data until May 10th or 11th, as I quoted in previous posts. In the meantime Stefanoni spent that time arguing with the judge and experts and dragging her heels.

So, if you were to read that on May 21st Vecchiotti had said something to the effect of 'the police lab promised cooperation' would you presume they meant they'd received that cooperation or that the rest of the context (were it ever provided...) would suggest she meant that in an entirely different fashion?

 

[Strozzi]

. . . you would expect that they would probably exchange their phone numbers. The fact they didn't do that despite they liked each other, is itself not what you would expect. Unless they were both shy people (they were not). But what if the man didn't have a cell phone?

Machiavelli, this is pure speculation: "You would expect" . . .; "not what you would expect" . . .

To me, it has no probative value. But you are trying to make it appear that the man is probably Guede and that therefore this is circumstantial proof that Knox and Guede had an ongong relationship which nobody else ever learned about.

How many people are falsely prosecuted in Italy based on this sort of specious reasoning?

I would expect Rudy Guede, a slender, agile basketball player who can jump up and weave, to be able to throw an 8.8 pound rock through a window, climb up the lower grate, reach a hand through the hole, open the window, and pull himself in. That is a lot more credible than that Amanda found Guede to be the most handsome black man she had ever seen, met him again, engaged in a budding relationship with him, never mentioned it to anyone else, and nobody else ever saw it.

 

[js202]

Still no evidence of that, and there never will be.

This, of course, is because it is one of the more imbecilic assumptions ever posted on the topic of this entire imbroglio.

Guede was a high school dropout, a hanger on - a person who at best had insinuated himself into the student life of Perugia, whilst possessing no legitimate standing. AK was a good student, a person with a solid family life, supportive friends and personal ambitions. She came to Italy for a semester abroad, and had enrolled in a structured course of study. In short order, she glommed onto RS, a person of similar class, standing and ambitions.

Guede was a robber and a shiftless loser, and did not fit the profiles of her background or friendships. For those who are not interested in trumping up preposterous, groundless fantasies about Knox's predilections, it's really not that complicated.

 

[kwill]

That is from the MySpace blog for September 2 when Amands is first in Perugia looking for a place to stay.

we hung out for a good long time the day before yesturday, just laughing about crazy people and in general getting to know each other. then, deanna and i went to grab a sandwich at the same cafe and i bumped into the most beautiful black man i have ever seen. he said he’d see me when i come back from germany. eheheheh and our waiter, nerti, from albania, hung out with us a bit and talked politics.​

That's it??!! That's supposed to be the reference that people think refers to her first meeting with the murderer Guede??

Holy hell.

Let's see . .we have a young woman on a big adventure, writing to her online friends that she's excited and happy. She's saying in five different ways that the people she's talked to so far are friendly, diverse, and interesting.

I have a few friends who are in their early twenties -- some former students, some who became family friends after getting close to our daughters. Three of them are currently in foreign countries doing various jobs and working on various degrees. That myspace post is something any of them could have written, though now of course they don't use myspace. They have their own silly blogs, which are sometimes transparently written to reassure both themselves and their loved ones back home that they're doing fine.

That's how I read this. How terribly weird to keep repeating that "beautiful black man" phrase as if it's some kind of ominous sign of depravity to come.

 

[acbytesla]

Here's the thing. Amanda had "met" Rudy two weeks before Meredith's murder. He was a basketball friend of the guys downstairs. Even they hardly knew him really outside of the court at Piazza Grimana although I think he slept on their floor one time.

Amanda didn't date Rudy and they didn't go back to Rudy's place after the boys little pot party. And unless Rudy "bumped" into Amanda he had no way to reach or communicate with her. He didn't have a phone or even have her phone number. He wasn't in any of Amanda's classes and he didn't even speak English. He would have had as much chance getting lucky with Amanda...as well, me.

Like my father use to say "Chance are between slim and none and we are not so sure about slim".

A week later Amanda became joined at the hip with Raffaele and remained so until they both were thrown in jail two weeks later.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>But she had already given her phone number to a drug dealer,

Oh, so as it turns out, this was at the beginning of her time in Perugia? Sounds to me as if it is very unlikely she knew this person was a drug dealer, unless he introduced himself as such at their first meeting.

then she had met Juve or some other, and she also started to have some coming outs about Meredith and Giacomo that we may define seductive (suggesting that she would be confortable being seen naked by her friend's boyfriends) and even jealous (her attempts to attract attention).

Evidence?

Then, it was I think Sophie who recalled how Meredith found it strange about Amanda that she would be infatuated so quickly with guys and start intimate relations so instantly.
Knox seemed very ready to be completely caught by someone but also quite volatile. There is something immature, even childish, in her intensity and changes. So I really find it difficult to make inferences based on the assumption that Knox would be easilly predictable.

Sounds like a twenty-year-old to me. It also sounds like you have devoted an inordinate amount of time developing Amanda's persona in your head.

 

[Machiavelli]

Machiavelli, this is pure speculation: "You would expect" . . .; "not what you would expect" . . .

To me, it has no probative value. But you are trying to make it appear that the man is probably Guede and that therefore this is circumstantial proof that Knox and Guede had an ongong relationship which nobody else ever learned about.

How many people are falsely prosecuted in Italy based on this sort of specious reasoning?

No, no, it is not circumstantial evidence; and having a relation is not a crime. It's not something you can proscute a person for, and it's not something that will be pit in a judge's report.
However, if you want to draw a scenario including details surrounding the crime and people's profiles, this is just a realistic context.
You don't think there is circumstantial evidence to assert Stefanoni purposedly planted the bra clasp, do you?
You can do your speculation, express your belief, but the difference with Knox 's lifestyle and relations scenario is that against Knox, in my opinion there is evidence beyond reasonable doubt of her involvement in a murder. I think it's already proven. Therefore the scenario about sex and lyfestyle is just a reality check about surrounding circumsntances.

I would expect Rudy Guede, a slender, agile basketball player who can jump up and weave, to be able to throw an 8.8 pound rock through a window, climb up the lower grate, reach a hand through the hole, open the window, and pull himself in. That is a lot more credible than that Amanda found Guede to be the most handsome black man she had ever seen, met him again, engaged in a budding relationship with him, never mentioned it to anyone else, and nobody else ever saw it.

Well, in my opinion he didn't enter through that window. That specific alleged break-in is not attributable to Rudy Guede, nor to anyone else, in any credible way.

 

[Dan O.]

Her whole diary was photocopied, and put into the investigation file.

That is another bald lie, Machiavelli. There is no record that the diary was ever entered into the case file. It was stollen and photocopied, yes. But the copies were sold straight to the press by the lying scum of the ILE.

 

[Mary_H]

That's it??!! That's supposed to be the reference that people think refers to her first meeting with the murderer Guede??

Holy hell.

Let's see . .we have a young woman on a big adventure, writing to her online friends that she's excited and happy. She's saying in five different ways that the people she's talked to so far are friendly, diverse, and interesting.

I have a few friends who are in their early twenties -- some former students, some who became family friends after getting close to our daughters. Three of them are currently in foreign countries doing various jobs and working on various degrees. That myspace post is something any of them could have written, though now of course they don't use myspace. They have their own silly blogs, which are sometimes transparently written to reassure both themselves and their loved ones back home that they're doing fine.

That's how I read this. How terribly weird to keep repeating that "beautiful black man" phrase as if it's some kind of ominous sign of depravity to come.

I agree. I wonder if Machiavelli knows how many people use similar phrases and how often they use them. I know I have said "______ was the most beautiful ______ I have ever seen" at least a few times in my life.

Maybe he knows as much about people calling each other beautiful as he knows about sex on trains.

 

[acbytesla]

Well, in my opinion he didn't enter through that window. That specific alleged break-in is not attributable to Rudy Guede, nor to anyone else, in any credible way.

It's far more credible than the absurd silly idea that it was staged. But you are right, it can't be proved conclusively that Rudy climbed through that window. It might have been one of his buddies.

But someone did and my money is on Rudy.