Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Matthew Best]

The kitchen knife was not the only one sized in his apartment, also a second knife was seized.
There were no other knifes that could fit the use as a killing weapon.

I thought this guy was a knife fanatic who had a collection?

 

[kwill]

When Amanda was charged the media raced to her social media page(s) and she had used the unfortunate moniker of "Foxy Knoxy" and there was no explanation of a youth soccer nickname. For the british and Italians Foxy has/had a different meaning than it has for me, which is just a good looking woman or man.

The FOA countered with honor student, goofy hippie chick late bloomer description. One key reason she had to be innocent was her background.

That was all the defense had to talk about until Amanda and Raffaele's lawyers were given access to the prosecution's case. If I'm remembering it right, the prosecution was leaking false information about the "evidence" against them for the entire first year they spent in prison. The "double-DNA" knife is one example. So is the blood-soaked bathroom, the lost sweater, Raffaele's shoe-print, the German Harry Potter book, etc.

The PGP then went on a search to find any and all indications that she wasn't so innocent after-all. They even stooped to believe and promote a Slog comment by some dungeons and dragons type about a prank on April Fools' Day. That prank then evolved into the rape prank. Peggy even contacted the guy by email.

Yes, well. Peggy is mentally ill, so we have to be careful not to judge her too harshly.

I never liked the good girl no motive defense and believe that it engendered the other side getting into her sex life.

There was no other defense to be made until the trial was underway and the so-called evidence could be seen for what it was. Even then, years passed before an independent analysis of the DNA could be made, right? And for all that time, the only thing people who could not believe Amanda and Raffaele were innocent COULD talk about was their character & history.

It seems kind of cruel to blame their supporters for engendering all the interest in their sexuality, because that was going on from Hour One, and continues to this day.

I just saw a completely bizarre suggestion that Amanda was interested in Meredith sexually, for example. Where on earth did that come from?

 

[Grinder]

I have 5 sisters Machiavelli, and 4 brothers.

Your parents didn't care much about the planet.

It is an absurd..totally absurd speculation that Rudy is the most beautiful black man. But I guess, that doesn't fit your moronic ideas.

Oculus autem aspicientis.

Next thing you will tell us is that your best friend is an Italian.

Btw, if there was an ugly guy involved in this it would be Giacomo. I mean really!

 

[Machiavelli]

(...)
I never liked the good girl no motive defense and believe that it engendered the other side getting into her sex life. Clearly the PLE promoted this and they should be sanctioned for doing that. This is an area where I disagree with Mach when he supports the release of this kind of crap to the media.
(...)

It's not that I just support: I don't believe it happened. I don't think the police released material to tabloids; and I think it would be absurd to believe they had a purpose to influence public opinion by doing so.
I don't think the police could prevent this material from being published in Italy even if they wanted to, and I don't think they are accountable for it. It is structurally impossible to grant privacy within the Italian justice system, because of the way the system is designed.

 

[Machiavelli]

I thought this guy was a knife fanatic who had a collection?

Yes he had a collection. He also had a katana.
But he had these things in his home in Giovinazzo, not in his Perugia room.

 

[Grinder]

That was all the defense had to talk about until Amanda and Raffaele's lawyers were given access to the prosecution's case. If I'm remembering it right, the prosecution was leaking false information about the "evidence" against them for the entire first year they spent in prison. The "double-DNA" knife is one example. So is the blood-soaked bathroom, the lost sweater, Raffaele's shoe-print, the German Harry Potter book, etc.

Basically true but saying she was an honor student really wasn't a defense.

Yes, well. Peggy is mentally ill, so we have to be careful not to judge her too harshly.

Good to find a fellow that considers mental health issues

There was no other defense to be made until the trial was underway and the so-called evidence could be seen for what it was. Even then, years passed before an independent analysis of the DNA could be made, right? And for all that time, the only thing people who could not believe Amanda and Raffaele were innocent COULD talk about was their character & history.

It seems kind of cruel to blame their supporters for engendering all the interest in their sexuality, because that was going on from Hour One, and continues to this day.

I just saw a completely bizarre suggestion that Amanda was interested in Meredith sexually, for example. Where on earth did that come from?

I understand your points and do agree with a lot. I still believe the good girl no motive talking points made for the response.

The PGP are nuts. Never call a crazy person crazy - something I learned early on

 

[moije2]

NOPE


We were fine up until then. We do have an idea that it wasn't Rudy.


NOBODY WOULD SAY THAT RUDY WAS THE MOST BEAUTIFUL BLACK MAN THEY HAD EVER SEEN. But if only beautiful people had sex, a lot of us would be virgins.


I got news for you Grinder, average or below average looking guys don't often get one night stands..they have to court the girl usually...a couple of dates. Whereas good looking players often hit the first pitch.

So we have a one week window for a possible rendezvous with so so Rudy and Amanda was NEVER SEEN with Rudy NOT ONCE during that week and no electronic communication.

There is no evidence..just absurd speculation

Voice from the gallery.

I have to agree with Grinder and Machiavelli on this. I personally don't know where you are coming from. Rude Guede was a good looking, athletic male. He may or may not have been obnoxious to the young women around Perugia but I haven't seen any evidence of that that is not possibly tainted by him being fingered as the murderer. And as for judging him as definitively not the "most beautiful black man" etc, I think that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Your statements about average or below looking men not getting laid is quite frankly ridiculous to me. You don't have to look far to see beautiful women on the arms of (insert derogatory visual of choice) guys, and conversely handsome successful men with less than perfect women.

On this note, I have always thought that with respect to Meredith Kercher, it was certainly within reason that she could have felt friendly to him to some degree. How much I won't speculate but I am struck by those comments that were made to the effect that Meredith would "never have gone for" Rudy Guede. I am not saying it happened, but those comments struck me as the same type of vilifying that Amanda and Raffaele have been subjected to. He may have other characteristics that make him undesirable and offensive, but being a black male is not one of them. Yes, I did sense the racial issue here. Others may see it differently. Maybe we should see a contrast between the "boys downstairs" and Rudy. Specifically Giacomo (?), the guy she was "hooking up with".

 

[acbytesla]

You sure like to yell. If you think what you do is defending, in some meaningful way, Amanda's honor you do fit the PGP characterization of her supporters.

Does it bother you that I caplock for emphasis?? Would you prefer if I bolded?

You have the idea, which seems based in prejudice or ignorance.

We are all prejudiced and ignorant about different things. But I'm not sure how that makes a difference. What I am not is prejudiced against people of race.

People that can't hear well yell a lot. Was she talking about the man's face? Was she talking about his legs? Was she talking about his smile?

She said the most beautiful black man she had ever seen. The means the entire package. If she had said the best legs or physique..who knows? But Rudy has a butter face.

Think Harry Potter is great looking. I must have been better looking than I thought

She never said that Raffaele or Harry Potter was the most beautiful man she had ever seen. Irrelevant.

Did Rudy have a phone during that period? Look, I don't think Amanda and Rudy had a relationship but not because of your arguments or yelling.

Did Rudy have a phone? I don't think so, but there is no evidence of any connection. Not, electronic, not eyewitnesses, not from Amanda and not from Rudy. So I'd say NO. It's up to the prosecution to prove it's points..which on this one they have totally failed.

 

[Strozzi]

And the other profiles came from the same source? As I understand it the video was streamed to lawyers in a van outside.



At that time they had Raf's shoe-prints and her confession. They were still waiting for all the other DNA to come in as proof. Someone killed Meredith but you think they were working to frame he by the 6th?



Don't travel to Italy.

1. I believe the police and prosecutor were working to pressure Raffaele to denounce Amanda as early as the night of Nov 6.
2. I believe Stefanoni willfully amplified the matter allegedly found on the knife blade far, far beyond what she knew her equipment could reliably and accurately process (too low, too low) in order to make a comparison, that she lowered her RFU standard to make it appear to work, and that she deliberately and falsely misread (cherry picked) certain data points and deliberately overlooked other data points in order to claim a match with the murder victim's DNA profile.
3. I believe that by mid-December the police and prosecutor knew that the Sollecito family had located a sample of Rudy's shoe model and intended to use it to expose the PLE's false claim that Raffaele's shoe matched the bloody shoeprints at the murder scene.
4. I believe that on December 18, 2007, the day Stefanoni collected the bra clasp, the police and prosecutor for whom she worked needed something physical and sensational to tie Raffaele to the crime and that there was no way Stefanoni was going to collect the bra clasp for the camera, take the bra clasp back to her lab in Rome for analysis, and take the chance that it was devoid of Raffaele's DNA.
5. I believe Stefanoni wiped with bra clasp hook with an article that contained Raffaele's DNA.
6. I believe Stefanoni willfully and knowingly immersed the metal-and-cloth bra clasp item in a liquid-filled storage container in oder to prevent it from being examined again.
7. I believe that on January 11 when Italy's most popular news program aired the news showing that the PLE's matching shoe/shoeprint claim is false that the PLE that same day disseminated their news that Stefanoni had found Raffaele's DNA on Meredith's bra clasp.

 

[Grinder]

It's not that I just support: I don't believe it happened. I don't think the police released material to tabloids; and I think it would be absurd to believe they had a purpose to influence public opinion by doing so.
I don't think the police could prevent this material from being published in Italy even if they wanted to, and I don't think they are accountable for it. It is structurally impossible to grant privacy within the Italian justice system, because of the way the system is designed.

Mach you have made that point even more forcefully in the past. As I recall days after the arrest or maybe only hours details of the interrogation were released. Who but the PLE could have done that? The content of the statements that were later ruled not usable in the murder trial were in the tabs.

If you are correct, I think the system is very flawed as an investigation needs some time without making all public to be effective.

 

[Bill Williams]

I never liked the good girl no motive defense and believe that it engendered the other side getting into her sex life. Clearly the PLE promoted this and they should be sanctioned for doing that. This is an area where I disagree with Mach when he supports the release of this kind of crap to the media.

Before getting into this too much, perhaps you might wish to say a few words about what the motive might have been for Knox or Sollecito to have been involved in this.

 

[Machiavelli]

Did Rudy have a phone during that period? Look, I don't think Amanda and Rudy had a relationship (...)

What I found most disturbing in Knox's comment about the "most beautiful black man he ever met", is not his looking but the fact that she never revealed his name. Not even in her book.
Though, she knew for sure because this was a person to whom she promised they would meet again after her return from Germany.
I find it disturbing because you may count black men attending bars in Via Garibaldi just like you know your neighbours. Can you imagine how small the place is? How little the bars? Who is this unknown second black man? It should be extremly easy to identify him and find him if we just had his name.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

stonewalling the independent experts

Thanks, LJ!

How is it that the contention Stefanoni was not forthcoming be disputed by defending her refusing to just give them the data and then claiming the independent court experts didn't look hard enough or ask specifically for everything?

Isn't that pretty much an admission she wasn't forthcoming?

Here is a link that discusses a little bit of her 2011 tactics. She said in effect that the independent experts had to be more specific with their request, but it is beyond me how they could know how the forensic police named their files.

 

[Grinder]

She never said that Raffaele or Harry Potter was the most beautiful man she had ever seen. Irrelevant.

Dude, she slept with him the first night. You just said that only good looking guys got laid on one night stands. Do you think he made a long term commitment at the concert.

Did Rudy have a phone? I don't think so, but there is no evidence of any connection. Not, electronic, not eyewitnesses, not from Amanda and not from Rudy. So I'd say NO. It's up to the prosecution to prove it's points..which on this one they have totally failed.

Well if he didn't have a phone that would explain no phone or texting records.

The prosecution never contended that they had a relationship beyond the party and a couple of chance meetings.

 

[Machiavelli]

Mach you have made that point even more forcefully in the past. As I recall days after the arrest or maybe only hours details of the interrogation were released. Who but the PLE could have done that? The content of the statements that were later ruled not usable in the murder trial were in the tabs.

But I have the entire minutes and statements, and no police officers gave them to me: they all came from lawyers. These statements were deposited at the prelimiary judge's office on Nov. 8. and were released to the atorneys on Nov. 6. This includes Lumumba attorneys and the civil party attorneys.
Everybody had them by that time.

If you are correct, I think the system is very flawed as an investigation needs some time without making all public to be effective.

You could complain both about transparency abd about secrecy. You have disadvantages in both cases.

 

[Grinder]

Before getting into this too much, perhaps you might wish to say a few words about what the motive might have been for Knox or Sollecito to have been involved in this.

get back to me after you answer as to whether or not you gave rides to frank and a credible source for satanic rite.

 

[kwill]

As for Knox's being a honor student or not: the topic is brought in by someone else. It was another poster who claimed that being a 'honour student' should be somehow cause a withdrawal of my idea of girl who was basically following a interest in fun experiences rather than an academic one (in that period of her life).
I don't think the objection has a merit.

What were you implying when you said that you'd never seen any evidence that she was an honor student?

But I question in fact also what "honors student" means in the mind of the America speakers who claim it, because, if I have to make a parallel with the Italian university system (thus what my mentality refers to), I would assume that a core aspect would be the "study plan", the program. The main distinction in Italian universities is between students who are perfectly "in course" and those who are out of course (not as "structured" within the academic plan). Knox appears as a person who has drifted out of her academic plan, she was not sent there in agreement with her university, and not on a sctructured exchange plan.

This may only reflect the point of view of a person used to the relatively rigid mindset of Italian universities.

Of course that's what it reflects. She was an American student working within our system, taking courses toward her degree at an accredited foreign university. There is no particular reward here for sticking with a "study plan;" we call it changing your major. Students do it all the time. Honor students do it all the time.

I for one am relieved to see that you're finally understanding we're talking about two different things. Americans are very, very focused on grades. And so was Amanda.

For students attending Italian universities, the marks they had at the high school have absolutely zero relevance and would be very strange that someone was called a "honor student" based on them; high school marks may concur to the admission criteria for some university courses, but it's not a university-based thing, it's for courses on national basis: there is no difference between universities, there are no universities with more selective admission critera than others. In Germany is the same.

Well, you can look at the admissions criteria for any university in the USA; every single one of them will ask that students have high grades from good high schools as an entrance requirement. Amanda did. And the best schools will take the students with the very highest grades.

And after all, it seems rather strange to me that the lifestyle of Amanda Knox in Perugia is thought as if she was the same person of when he was a 17-18 years old high school student.

Okay, but I would think that once you understand your definition of what it means to be an honor student doesn't apply to her, you would be able to accept that she was in fact taking courses that would apply towards her degree. And I would think that before you implied that she was simply a party girl drifting toward a known party town to do nothing but party, you'd at least ask if she was in fact taking classes, showing up for those classes, doing the required homework for those classes, and so on.

It is of course -- as we all know -- irrelevant to the crime. But it's not irrelevant to what makes some people see her as a plausible murderer.

But the point of view doesn't change anything. The whole topic about a "honor student" status awarded by a US university is irrelevant to the point. It doesn't affect my idea of Knox as a person

Well, that's the point. It should.

 

[acbytesla]

Dude, she slept with him the first night. You just said that only good looking guys got laid on one night stands. Do you think he made a long term commitment at the concert.



Well if he didn't have a phone that would explain no phone or texting records.

The prosecution never contended that they had a relationship beyond the party and a couple of chance meetings.

So why is Machiavelli suggesting that they did...and why are you helping him?

 

[christianahannah]

What I found most disturbing in Knox's comment about the "most beautiful black man he ever met", is not his looking but the fact that she never revealed his name. Not even in her book.
Though, she knew for sure because this was a person to whom she promied they would meet again after her return from Germany.
I find it disturbing because you may count black men attending bars in Via Garibaldi just like you know your neighbours. Can you imagine how small the place is? How little the bars? Who is this unknown second black man? It should be extremly easy to identify him and find him if we just had his name.

When (date) did Amanda write this about the most beautiful black man and where and what was Rudy doing during this same date?

This may have been answered in a prior post (which I missed) so I am sorry if this has already been answered.

 

[Bill Williams]

1. I believe the police and prosecutor were working to pressure Raffaele to denounce Amanda as early as the night of Nov 6.
2. I believe Stefanoni willfully amplified the matter allegedly found on the knife blade far, far beyond what she knew her equipment could reliably and accurately process (too low, too low) in order to make a comparison, that she lowered her RFU standard to make it appear to work, and that she deliberately and falsely misread (cherry picked) certain data points and deliberately overlooked other data points in order to claim a match with the murder victim's DNA profile.
3. I believe that by mid-December the police and prosecutor knew that the Sollecito family had located a sample of Rudy's shoe model and intended to use it to expose the PLE's false claim that Raffaele's shoe matched the bloody shoeprints at the murder scene.
4. I believe that on December 18, 2007, the day Stefanoni collected the bra clasp, the police and prosecutor for whom she worked needed something physical and sensational to tie Raffaele to the crime and that there was no way Stefanoni was going to collect the bra clasp for the camera, take the bra clasp back to her lab in Rome for analysis, and take the chance that it was devoid of Raffaele's DNA.
5. I believe Stefanoni wiped with bra clasp hook with an article that contained Raffaele's DNA.
6. I believe Stefanoni willfully and knowingly immersed the metal-and-cloth bra clasp item in a liquid-filled storage container in oder to prevent it from being examined again.
7. I believe that on January 11 when Italy's most popular news program aired the news showing that the PLE's matching shoe/shoeprint claim is false that the PLE that same day disseminated their news that Stefanoni had found Raffaele's DNA on Meredith's bra clasp.

This about sums up a very reasonable description of a "conspiracy theory".... one that I don't buy, really, but would be hard pressed to argue against.

It can only be repeated that when Stefanoni was under oath, she could neither confirm nor deny that she, herself, had contaminated the bra-hook with her dirty glove. If there was a conspiracy to convict, it went well beyond these points listed above.

The sexual vilification of Knox went a long way to biasing the original jury. That's my belief, anyway. It's why, regardless of the origin of the "Satanic Rite theory", or Machiavelli's denials that he'd ever floated a "pimp" theory, I go with acbytesla... (I think it was acbytesla).... the issue is that these became memes in the popular mind, enough for Nadeau to write about it, enough for John Kercher to write in his book about Meredith, that the prosecution had this as a "controversial theory".

Machiavelli's arguments here provide the key... it's part of the construction of "compatible theories" which all start with an assumption of guilt... which Machiavelli starts with, as he's admitted. From that point on it's not a matter of using these theories to prove guilt, that is already assumed.

The "conspiracy" up to January 11, 2008, is simply not enough to explain why we are here in Nov 2013.... It really took the Hellmann court to see that the king had no clothes, and then the ISC threw it back....

..... and what's happened since is nothing but a vindication of the Hellmann court. This is now not about Napoleoni, Mignini, or Stefanoni, even as much as I hope they all get a stay in Capanne prison their troubles.