Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Diocletus]

For the sake of accuracy, Machiavelli, these are your actual, confused posts about what Andrea Vogt reports.

Is she mad at you or something?



Can you take the highlighted part and communicate it to your guilter buddies.....?



What is the meaning of, "it died with the quashing of the Hellmann verdict," if it is, as you contradictorally say, "It's obvious that the C&V is before the court."

I once accused you of in essence saying, "no comment", when asked about Andrea Vogt's reporting from the courtroom on Nov 6. I withdraw that slanderous allegation that you had had no comment. Apologies.

You're now dealing with bafflegab.

Why is it so difficult for you to report what Andrea Vogt said about the Nov 6 court session? Acc. to your respective tweets, you were both there! Did you see her? Did she see you?

He's saying that C&V are now "discredited" because the perverts quashed the Hellman judgment. As if that could make all of the forensics screw-ups just disappear.

 

[Diocletus]

Yes. There is several things that he has to file. Theoretically.

It is impossible to answer this question exhaustively. You would need his fiscal records, which he won't give you.

I consider this a most likely circumstance. It was a most trivial and usual practice. This wouldn't have any implications.

The fact of the matter is that Patrick was a tax cheat.

He wasn't recording his sales, and he was paying his employees in cash to avoid taxes and other government payments.

Apparently, he eventually had Knox working for tips and then later criticized her for being too friendly with the patrons, which is exactly the behavior he should have expected given his compensation arrangement. And frankly, it's exactly the behavior that he wanted because it was good for business.

Personally, I think the guy is a sleazy jackass. No wonder the cops zeroed in on him. They were also probably within their right to keep his business closed, given the fact that he wasn't reporting his income properly.

 

[Kestrel]

Has it ever occurred to any of you guys who are really au fait with this case to write their own book about it? Not the personalities or the gossip, but the Actual. Bloody. Evidence?

If I can do it for Lockerbie, one of you guys, or maybe a partnership, could do it for the Kercher case. Or are you gathering material and waiting for the final verdict?

Remember that this case is being tried in Italy. We might not live long enough to see a final verdict.

 

[Caper]

Machiavelli and any citizen of Perugia should be proud that the University for Foreigners Program can attract students from the University of Washington to learn Italian and about the culture in Italy. Instead, Machiavelli trashes it, just so he can trash Amanda.

I agree. Likewise, I don't think there is much of an appetite to get her boyfriend by the Italian public.... I think it was always about her and attacking her. Now that he's the one who is back... He is threated with jail, I don't think they will find him guilty. They were willing to sacrifice him to satisfy their insane hatred for her. But not now. Now your just getting him.... and that was never what they wanted.

 

[Diocletus]

She would be offered language proficiency credits. That she might later use in her study plan at the university of Washington.
But this can hardly be called an academic semester. It's a study for language certificates.

Oh, I see. So Knox was studying language for university credit.

But now I also see that you're just making an underhanded comparison between what Knox was doing and what Kercher was doing, to try to make Knox look bad.

But it seems to me that Knox was doing exactly what she should have been doing: studying language and culture in program accredited by her own university. Actually, it seems to me that Kercher's study program was poorly thought-out. Unless you have a degree of fluency in a language, it is almost useless to attend a foreign university to study liberal arts, and as far as I know, Kercher had just a bit of Italian. Therefore, her ability to absorb from her lectures and reading would have been severely limited.

Between the two, Knox had the more sensible course of study. For what it's worth, from a father's perspective, she also had the better boyfriend.

 

[Diocletus]

Not surprisingly, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Since when is learning a foreign language NOT ACADEMIC? And why would someone attending one of the most prestigious Universities in the US go to Perugia to study anything other than to learn Italian?

http://studyabroad.washington.edu/index.cfm?FuseAction=Programs.ViewProgram&Program_ID=10462

In addition to the inexpensive side excursions, do they mention the possibility that you could get hands-on experience with the Italian justice and corrections systems?

Frankly, I'm surprised that UW students would want to attend this program, given the xenophobia that Perugians direct at Americans and UW students in particular.

 

[Kestrel]

Yes, Patrick was probably cheating on his taxes. Just like most small businesses in Italy.

Amanda's rent payments were in cash, so her landlord could cheat on taxes. Most Perugia landlords were doing the same. The nursery school in Milan that Guede broke into had several thousand euros stolen. They were taking payments in cash so they could cheat on their taxes.

 

[Strozzi]

We actually figured out that this as a bit of pro-innocence fanfic a while ago. Stefanoni made her trip to fabricate find new evidence well before the shoeprint debacle.
QUOTE]

Rafaelle describes in Honor Bound (paperback pp. 118-119) his family's search of stores in Perugia, the Bari area, and Rome to locate a shoe which matched the Nike Outbreak 2 shoebox the police discovered in Rude's closet. The search appears to have been in early December and went on for many days. Raffaele's father, his brother Giuseppe (Raffaele's uncle), and Raffael's sister Vanessa discussed the progress of their search in phone calls, and Raffaele in his book describes a comical phone exchange between Raffael's father and Giuseppe when Giuseppe found an Outbreak 2 in a sales rack in a store in Adelfia but did not purchase it because the size was 1/2 size smaller than Rudy's known size.

The police were listening to the phone conversations, knew that the family had finally located and purchased an Outbreak 2, and were discussing presenting it to TV news. That would destroy the only physical evidence the police claimed put Raffaele at the crime scene. With this development, Stefanoni returned to Perugia to collect the bra clasp (Dec. 18).

Raffaele's father wanted to release the shoe information to the media. Vanessa want to keep it quiet and release it only in the courtroom, as there was no telling what the police or prosecutor might do if they knew about the shoe discovery beforehand. But father won out, and arranged to present the Outbreak 2 on Italy's most popular TV news show. That took a while to arrange, as it involved the family's technical expert giving scientific explanations to Enrico Mentana, the news show host. The information debunking the police's shoeprint claim aired on TV on Jan 11 2008. The police or prosecution released Stefanoni's bra clasp DNA findings to the media the same day.

 

[Diocletus]

What in your head does it produce the idea that I may confuse Satanism with Neopaganism?

I have to agree with Machiavelli on this one: I have not seen any evidence that Mignini used the word "Satan" in the court proceedings.

He did something far worse.

He used the imagery of Satanism: a "Halloween" "initiation" "rite". He did this because he knew that he couldn't get away with invoking Satan explicitly, so he used the code words that he knew Italians would connect with Satanism due to their extreme superstitiousness, fascination with Satanism, ignorance of the cultural tradition of Halloween in America, xenophobia and anti-American bias.

Mignini knew that his satanic imagery was even better than using the word "Satan," because it left to the newspapers and their readers to connect the dots and form their own conclusion about "Satan." This was done to the extrajudicial prejudice of the defendants.

The proof of this is that when the newspapers and public did connect the dots, Mignini did nothing whatsoever to correct the record. He let the innuendo and misinformation lie uncorrected, leaving it to work its prejudice on the defendants and the judicial process.

It is only now that Mignini has realized that this "Satanism" motif that he created threatens to come back on him and harm his own reputation, and therefore, Mignini has attempted some sort of half-assed correction of the record, in which he throws others under the bus in order to save his own skin.

In my opinion, Mignini is transparently a deceitful jackass who cares nothing about justice and will do anything to protect his own image, and this includes railroading innocent kids in part through the use of satanic imagery and themes.

 

[Rolfe]

(For Strozzi's explanation) Oh, WOW. Respect.

Rolfe.

 

[Diocletus]

Objectively I have no personal interest in offering explanations for why a telephone number was in a drug dealer's cell phone, since I'm not the owner of the phone number.

I guess that Kercher's number was in Silenzio's phone. And he was a marijuana cultivator (technically, I guess she was too). Is that bad?

 

[Strozzi]

duplicate post deleted

 

[Bill Williams]

I have to agree with Machiavelli on this one: I have not seen any evidence that Mignini used the word "Satan" in the court proceedings.

He did something far worse.

He used the imagery of Satanism: a "Halloween" "initiation" "rite". He did this because he knew that he couldn't get away with invoking Satan explicitly, so he used the code words that he knew Italians would connect with Satanism due to their extreme superstitiousness, fascination with Satanism, ignorance of the cultural tradition of Halloween in America, xenophobia and anti-American bias.

Mignini knew that his satanic imagery was even better than using the word "Satan," because it left to the newspapers and their readers to connect the dots and form their own conclusion about "Satan." This was done to the extrajudicial prejudice of the defendants.

The proof of this is that when the newspapers and public did connect the dots, Mignini did nothing whatsoever to correct the record. He let the innuendo and misinformation lie uncorrected, leaving it to work its prejudice on the defendants and the judicial process.
It is only now that Mignini has realized that this "Satanism" motif that he created threatens to come back on him and harm his own reputation, and therefore, Mignini has attempted some sort of half-assed correction of the record, in which he throws others under the bus in order to save his own skin.

In my opinion, Mignini is transparently a deceitful jackass who cares nothing about justice and will do anything to protect his own image, and this includes railroading innocent kids in part through the use of satanic imagery and themes.

I think we're now going to get a lecture from Mignini Machiavelli on how it is not the prosecution's job to correct journalists' misconceptions.

Just like it is not Vogt's Machiavelli's job to correct misconceptions about the "I was there" piece Vogt wrote for a Seattle newspaper early on. Except I'm already wrong... Machiavelli DID correct the misconception.....

...... he said the reason why Vogt does not need to correc the record was because, in fact, Amanda and her mother were communicating in Mafia code. Yes, that's it. Mafia code. How could we have missed that?

 

[GreyFox]

Whoa! You are painting with a pretty broad brush here, suggesting that any woman would be delighted to date any good-looking man who hit on her in a bar. There are lots of reasons that a woman might complain about being hit on in a bar that have absolutely nothing to do with the appearance of the person doing the hitting-on.

Point taken ! Witness accounts of Rudy at the club didn't make him out to be something special. Certainly not a ladies man but rather a pain in the but.

For people to make the stretch that he's the guy Amanda wrote about is a heck of a stretch. There is simply nothing to support it. It irritates me when people try to make that leap to aid their smear campaign.

 

[davefoc]

(For Strozzi's explanation) Oh, WOW. Respect.

Rolfe.

I thought so also.

Many times in this thread there have been skillful, informed analytical posts about this case and this is one of them. It is a bit sad that these kind of posts without an organized attachment to some sort of document/encyclopedia and without the relevant references attached to them will never be available to the general population that is interested in this case.

 

[andreajo]

I have a feeling Italians do not have a phrase for "conflict of interest."

No kidding! I was flabbergasted that representatives for Patrick Lumumba and the Kercher family were allowed to participate in the part of the court process where guilt was being decided. They have lawsuits pending, and stand to gain financially if AK and RS are convicted.

Have you seen the recent stuf which suggests that if victims cannot get their cash awards from the convicted, that they can sue the Italian government to get access to funds? It explains Maresca.... he knows that convicted criminals rarely can pay off the enormous cash awards made.... he probably thinks the people of Italy are going to, in the end, pay him off!

Hello, do you have a source for this? It is very interesting.

Ack - I will look.... someone else may have the source... help!

Serious question, Machiavelli.

If a victim of crime has no possibility (realistically) of receiving the cash payout of a court decision, can the victim petition the Italian government for the amount?

I think that I have been keeping up with the reading, and I didn't see an answer to this question. I am still curious about it. Does anybody have more information about italian government payouts of cash awards for crime victims if they cannot be collected from guilty parties?

 

[Strozzi]

No, Bill is out of town. We only have 12, but Giovanni is bringing Peggy's head on a pike so I think we should have a quorum.
Strozzi

acbytesla,
Last minute change. The coven is still meeting tonight a 7, but we've changed the location. The coven is now meeting in conference room 16 at the Boeing plant. There is plenty of parking; the room is right across the hall from the broom closet. Wear black.

Mary is bringing her tarantula collection.

Strozzi

 

[andreajo]

Point taken ! Witness accounts of Rudy at the club didn't make him out to be something special. Certainly not a ladies man but rather a pain in the but.

For people to make the stretch that he's the guy Amanda wrote about is a heck of a stretch. There is simply nothing to support it. It irritates me when people try to make that leap to aid their smear campaign.

When you put it this way, I can agree

 

[Bill Williams]

Has it ever occurred to any of you guys who are really au fait with this case to write their own book about it? Not the personalities or the gossip, but the Actual. Bloody. Evidence?

If I can do it for Lockerbie, one of you guys, or maybe a partnership, could do it for the Kercher case. Or are you gathering material and waiting for the final verdict?

Rolfe.

Machiavelli has been challenged for years to write up a comprehensive narrative of the crime, which explains and accounts for the evidence. He has consistently refused.

He said on IIP once that such a narrative was not necessary. All one needed was to consider the global something-or-other that pointed to guilt. He then said that this was a war, and that doing what was requested would actually aid the forces of darkness (this time, not to be confused with Satanism... he was talking about FOA).

I laughed at Machiavelli for these statements, and then stopped laughing when lo and behold, the March 2013 ISC quashing of the acquittals said much the same thing.

Instead, Machiavelli chips around the edges. Guede could have been Amanda's pimp. Amanda could have had a drug dealer's number in her phone. Amanda and her mother might have learned how to talk in Mafia code. Hellmann was bought off by the Masons. The Conti-Vecchiotti report died with the Hellmann quashing, yet for some reason is now in front of the Nencini court. Stefanoni is a real "Dr."

When Mignini goes to a conference to address "Satanism in crime", and says that a good investigator must be led by the evidence, but yet must keep an open mind about Satanism..... Machiavelli said... you know, I think that one was truly incomprehensible!

You get the drift. Machiavelli does everything except put a comprehensive narrative out there. He's been asked ad nauseum.

Why doesn't he do it? Because Knox is guilty, that's why.

 

[GreyFox]

We actually figured out that this as a bit of pro-innocence fanfic a while ago. Stefanoni made her trip to fabricate find new evidence well before the shoeprint debacle.
QUOTE]

Rafaelle describes in Honor Bound (paperback pp. 118-119) his family's search of stores in Perugia, the Bari area, and Rome to locate a shoe which matched the Nike Outbreak 2 shoebox the police discovered in Rude's closet. The search appears to have been in early December and went on for many days. Raffaele's father, his brother Giuseppe (Raffaele's uncle), and Raffael's sister Vanessa discussed the progress of their search in phone calls, and Raffaele in his book describes a comical phone exchange between Raffael's father and Giuseppe when Giuseppe found an Outbreak 2 in a sales rack in a store in Adelfia but did not purchase it because the size was 1/2 size smaller than Rudy's known size.

The police were listening to the phone conversations, knew that the family had finally located and purchased an Outbreak 2, and were discussing presenting it to TV news. That would destroy the only physical evidence the police claimed put Raffaele at the crime scene. With this development, Stefanoni returned to Perugia to collect the bra clasp (Dec. 18).

Raffaele's father wanted to release the shoe information to the media. Vanessa want to keep it quiet and release it only in the courtroom, as there was no telling what the police or prosecutor might do if they knew about the shoe discovery beforehand. But father won out, and arranged to present the Outbreak 2 on Italy's most popular TV news show. That took a while to arrange, as it involved the family's technical expert giving scientific explanations to Enrico Mentana, the news show host. The information debunking the police's shoeprint claim aired on TV on Jan 11 2008. The police or prosecution released Stefanoni's bra clasp DNA findings to the media the same day.

Never show your cards. What if OJ had tried the glove on for the camera's a month before the verdict ? The element of surprise would have done wonders for Rafs defense.