Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Supernaut]

Tesla why do obfuscate?

Did anyone credible say the DNA was starch? Yes or No.

I do not trust her work or conclusions. I don't think that the knife or bra DNA should be admitted to any court, but it wasn't found to be starch.

If you can't admit it, just let it go.

You obviously think you're making a very clear point (I think it's more a matter of scoring a point), but really .....

"The DNA"? Meredith's DNA was in Stephony's lab in copious amounts, there's no question of that.

She produced a chart showing RFU peaks which are barely above the 'noise-floor' the machine produced, i.e. at the very limits of its ability to differentiate them from nothing - by definition in the LCN range.

Her own notes show that the blade tested negative for human tissue or blood, yet she claims she found a "speck" (which she didn't photograph), and which she claims was the source of this infitesmally small amount of DNA.

C&V confirmed no human tissue or blood, only visible traces of vegetable starch.

Assuming Stephony DID actually find a "speck", then in all likelihood it TOO was starch, and the DNA was from elsewhere in the lab

Once again - since this matter [ETA >> i.e. the starch] was on the blade, at the junction with the handle, exactly where one would look for something missed by cleaning, what rationale could there possibly be for Stephony ignoring it, while just happening to get lucky with the single other "speck" on the blade that yielded DNA? Do you honestly find that remotely credible?

Whatever, had she produced charts for negative control runs which showed only noise (the controls aren't an "option" to "just make sure" of the results, they are an integral part of those results), then it would be credible that her "speck" did indeed yield the few picograms of DNA.

The only thing then standing in the way of presenting it as "evidence" would be complete, unambiguous records/documentation of the "chain of custody" of the knife, proving that the absolutely mandatory procedures for sterile collection, handling and storage had been observed ........ er, oh dear.

Methinks you really need make some effort to get a more thorough grasp of this "DNA science stuff", if only a 'lay' one.

BTW, I have to assume you don't bother reading at IIP (it's too "biased", I suppose), because if you had, you'd be aware of the time and effort Diocletus has put into doing exactly that, and I doubt you'd be so ready with the condescending tone when discussing this particular issue with him.

 

[Machiavelli]

(...) I see your point that Guede, according to Massei also had no bad feelings towards Meredith, but as someone who everyone agrees was there NOT BY CHANCE and with intent to commit a crime (even if not necessarily to murder) and whose dna was present in the scene of the crime I feel his feelings towards Meredith are irrelevant. (But not irrelevant regarding Amanda and Raffaele of course - I think the prosecution would have to show some kind of animosity, and something a bit more convincing than an embarrassing discussion about how to clean a lavatory.)

Well, as for Guede, the issue of premeditation is relevant just as much as for the other two.
I think about Knox and Sollecito, exactly what you think about Guede: that their feelings are irrelevant in terms of proving their involvement.
The difference between me an you is that you think evidence against Knox and Sollecito is insufficient, this is why you think the prosecution should show some kind of animosity.
But I think the evidence is solid and beyond reasonable doubt, and also I think Massei assumed the same thing. On this basis, I don't want the prosecution to demonstrate any specific motive, plan, narrative or premeditation; it is indifferent to me if Knox and Sollecito had any animosity. The question of motives, psychological motivations, is something where I can see a dynamic suggested by the personalities, but such explanation is anyway irrelevant to me because I already see evidence beyond doubt of their involvement, and I don't need further elements.

 

[Bill Williams]

It should further be noted that the criminal acts were carried out on the force of purely chance contingencies which, put together one with the other, created a situation that, in the combination of various factors, made possible the crimes to the detriment of Meredith: Amanda and Raffaele who suddenly found themselves without any commitments; they meet Rudy Guede by chance (there is no trace of any appointment having been made), and find themselves together with him at the house on the Via della Pergola where, precisely that evening, Meredith is alone. A crime that is carried out, therefore, without any planning, without any animosity or feelings of rancour against the victim which could be seen in any way as preparation-predisposition to [commit a] crime. Considerations which, together with what has been observed on malice with regard to the crime of murder, appear significant in terms of Article 133 paragraph 1 number 3 of the Criminal Code.​

I think the above paragraph shows how asinine the prosecution case is. They just happened to turn up , no planning, chance meeting of Guede, no malice towards Meredith and the poor girl gets killed. The only redeeming feature of the paragraph is that it would never be written by anyone on the PGP websites ever. I see your point that Guede, according to Massei also had no bad feelings towards Meredith, but as someone who everyone agrees was there NOT BY CHANCE and with intent to commit a crime (even if not necessarily to murder) and whose dna was present in the scene of the crime I feel his feelings towards Meredith are irrelevant. (But not irrelevant regarding Amanda and Raffaele of course - I think the prosecution would have to show some kind of animosity, and something a bit more convincing than an embarrassing discussion about how to clean a lavatory.)

With respect, this is not the prosecution case.

This is Massei's reinvention of the case.

The prosecution case is that Amanda took the knife from Raffaele's with premeditation. It had to have been premeditation, otherwise there is no reason for Amanda to be innocently carrying that knife, as Massei eventually had to settle on. (Cf. she carried it for general protection.)

The prosecution tried to put forward that the sex-game gone wrong was premeditated, a plan which must have been hatched at Raffaele's, or again... why is the knife taken?

The best thing about this exchange, though, is that now (maybe for the first time) Machiavelli is agreeing that there was no premeditation.

 

[Bill Williams]

Well, as for Guede, the issue of premeditation is relevant just as much as for the other two.
I think about Knox and Sollecito, exactly what you think about Guede: that their feelings are irrelevant in terms of proving their involvement.
The difference between me an you is that you think evidence against Knox and Sollecito is insufficient, this is why you think the prosecution should show some kind of animosity.
But I think the evidence is solid and beyond reasonable doubt, and also I think Massei assumed the same thing. On this basis, I don't want the prosecution to demonstrate any specific motive, plan, narrative or premeditation; it is indifferent to me if Knox and Sollecito had any animosity. The question of motives, psychological motivations, is something where I can see a dynamic suggested by the personalities, but such explanation is anyway irrelevant to me because I already see evidence beyond doubt of their involvement, and I don't need further elements.

Could you at the very least, then, when logging in as Yummi at the other sites, refute this point when others put it in print?

No? I thought not.

 

[acbytesla]

I don't think there was premeditation on anyone's part. I don't believe that Rudy went there with the idea of killing Meredith. Amanda and Raffaele weren't there and there is no reason for them to kill Meredith. No this was the result of an unbalanced man who's plan was to burglarize the house at first and that turned into something far worse.

The only thing I agree with the nutters about is that if Amanda was involved and she carried that cooking knife to the cottage, then premeditation HAD to be a part of this.
That said, I don't think there is a chance in hell, that cooking knife had anything to do with this murder.

 

[acbytesla]

Well, as for Guede, the issue of premeditation is relevant just as much as for the other two.
I think about Knox and Sollecito, exactly what you think about Guede: that their feelings are irrelevant in terms of proving their involvement.
The difference between me an you is that you think evidence against Knox and Sollecito is insufficient, this is why you think the prosecution should show some kind of animosity. But I think the evidence is solid and beyond reasonable doubt, and also I think Massei assumed the same thing. On this basis, I don't want the prosecution to demonstrate any specific motive, plan, narrative or premeditation; it is indifferent to me if Knox and Sollecito had any animosity. The question of motives, psychological motivations, is something where I can see a dynamic suggested by the personalities, but such explanation is anyway irrelevant to me because I already see evidence beyond doubt of their involvement, and I don't need further elements.

No, the evidence is NON-EXISTENT.

 

[xinonix]

It doesn't matter if there was evidence, the jury were a group of retards who will believe anything that the more convincing lawyer says

 

[Dan O.]

• Only Rudy could have thrown that rock through Filomenia's window before Meredith came home that night. Nobody is throwing a rock through a window while there is a dead body inside the cottage.
• Rudy acknowledges searching Amanda's sock drawer for the missing money. Problem is that Amanda doesn't have a sock drawer. Rudy was in Laura's room and therefore was alone in the cottage.
• Rudy taking a crap in the Italian girls bathroom says that neither Amanda nor Meredith was there to point him to the bathroom that they were responsible for cleaning.
• The perpetrator of this crime got his hands bloodied and there was not a clean hand in the room to open Meredith's bedroom door from the inside.
• Rudy ripped off Meredith's bra by pulling on the band behind her right shoulder where he left his DNA on the band. This was done after Meredith was fatally stabbed and after Rudy had washed most of the blood off of his hands but not before Meredith had breathed her last.
• Rudy walked out of Meredith's room and to the front door. But Rudy did not get outside at this time. He turned around at the door and stepped back into the living room and stood in front of the couch facing the back room where Meredith lay dying.
• Rudy needed a key to open the front door. He would need to return to the murder room to search for those keys.
• Rudy's DNA is found on the zipper on Meredith's purse.

It's been 20 pages now and Machiavelli hasn't addressed a single one of these points.

 

[acbytesla]

It's been 20 pages now and Machiavelli hasn't addressed a single one of these points.

He's never going to either.

 

[Bill Williams]

• Only Rudy could have thrown that rock through Filomenia's window before Meredith came home that night. Nobody is throwing a rock through a window while there is a dead body inside the cottage.
• Rudy acknowledges searching Amanda's sock drawer for the missing money. Problem is that Amanda doesn't have a sock drawer. Rudy was in Laura's room and therefore was alone in the cottage.
• Rudy taking a crap in the Italian girls bathroom says that neither Amanda nor Meredith was there to point him to the bathroom that they were responsible for cleaning.
• The perpetrator of this crime got his hands bloodied and there was not a clean hand in the room to open Meredith's bedroom door from the inside.
• Rudy ripped off Meredith's bra by pulling on the band behind her right shoulder where he left his DNA on the band. This was done after Meredith was fatally stabbed and after Rudy had washed most of the blood off of his hands but not before Meredith had breathed her last.
• Rudy walked out of Meredith's room and to the front door. But Rudy did not get outside at this time. He turned around at the door and stepped back into the living room and stood in front of the couch facing the back room where Meredith lay dying.
• Rudy needed a key to open the front door. He would need to return to the murder room to search for those keys.
• Rudy's DNA is found on the zipper on Meredith's purse.

It's been 20 pages now and Machiavelli hasn't addressed a single one of these points.

He'll get around to it. He eventually does.

He'll say that there is a quirk of Italian law which means that a rock thrown in through a window before someone is murdered, must be deemed as thrown after.

He'll call you an "approximate reporter", putting you in the league of other liars like Barbie Nadeau.

He'll say that he figured out through detailed analysis of Amanda's writings that it wasn't Rudy's DNA on the zipper of the purse.

But he'll get there....

 

[Mary_H]

Hey Tesla (Cody here's a chance to hammer me) remember your statement that Filomena had the same alibi as Amanda? I asked you if you had any details on her being with her boyfriend?

Well Amnada at 3:00 of the video currently on page one says that everyone else close to Meredith had a "solid alibi" except Raffaele and me. So although in some technical fashion they had similar alibis, in fact the details of Filomena's must have made hers solid. Perhaps, as I suggested they were with people or in public late enough for their alibi to be solid. Amanda admits hers wasn't.<snip>

You should ask katy_did about Filomena. She once wrote a great post about why Filomena was just as likely a candidate for suspicion as Amanda was. I can't find it right now, but maybe Katy saved it.

ETA - everyone should watch the King 5 interview. The .org and .net people will be going crazy over Cantwell's cameo on it. For those that follow over there a recent schadenfreude theme has been that the hearing in D.C. means nothing and that Cantwell no longer has any interest in Amanda. Well, I'd say her being on that interview belies that.

I haven't watched that yet, Grinder -- does Cantwell say anything about anti-Americanism, as she did before? Because this sure looks like ethnic profiling to me:

Here's some additional information, part of a transcription of Mignini's closing arguments in the Massei Court which would have happened around early December, 2009, along with a google translate:

The night between the first and the second has one characteristic: Meredith and Amanda were alone in the house, they live together for the first university. There were no Italian guys downstairs and there were no Filomena Romanelli nor Laura Mezzetti. It was the first, the only night where you could drag the reserved girl in love with "boyfriend" Giacomo Silenzi, as well as attached to her family and especially her mother and English girls who were a bit '"world apart" in a perverse group sex game at which one would have also to take possession of the money that Meredith, always punctual, he would have had to pay after the "bridge", ie the following Monday, Nov. 5, still remains that what drives the three to organize the "feast" is a motivation of a sexual nature, be probable to engage in comics, three of which possessed.

Credit to Rose and Hans of IIP.<snip>

My, my, my, someone certainly has some prejudices when it comes to the differences between those erudite English girls and the perverse, unreserved American.

Okay, Supernaut, now you can bring out your lower-class accent with the "f's" where "th's" should be.

 

[Mary_H]

It's been 20 pages now and Machiavelli hasn't addressed a single one of these points.

He doesn't pay much attention to my posts, either, Dan. I take it as a compliment. It means he's been stumped.

Now, who here was talking about parrot titties?

 

[acbytesla]

He'll get around to it. He eventually does.

He'll say that there is a quirk of Italian law which means that a rock thrown in through a window before someone is murdered, must be deemed as thrown after.

He'll call you an "approximate reporter", putting you in the league of other liars like Barbie Nadeau.

He'll say that he figured out through detailed analysis of Amanda's writings that it wasn't Rudy's DNA on the zipper of the purse.

But he'll get there....

C'mon Bill, Mach will never address those questions. NEVER, EVER, EVER.

 

[Bill Williams]

He doesn't pay much attention to my posts, either, Dan. I take it as a compliment. It means he's been stumped.

Now, who here was talking about parrot titties?

He seems to have a thing about me. If I'm not mistaken, I might be able to take credit for him even reading the Massei report, albeit in the original Italian! He's learned something too, that Massei disagrees with Mignini over the issue of premeditation!

But I have not stumped him....

 

[RWVBWL]

<snip>
Bill needs more proof than Barbie and John Kercher said it. Barbie also said she talked with 9 forensic experts and they all said it was mixed blood. So I guess we have to believe that cause Barbie said so.

For a guy that does not even own nor completely read any books on this murder case we discuss, well I'm slightly troubled by your often put downs of the writers of these books Grinder. What gives? Esh 2 book authors even went to prison in the story they write of, but you still have not, from what I know, read the books of their own personal experiences.
Hmmm.

Sure, all of these book authors have made a mistake or 2,3 or even more,
but hey, they surely did more investigating than you or I ever did or will most likely do. Right?

Let me get back to Nadeau.
Barbie writes, among many other things in her book Angel Face
that Meredith had a Brazilian wax job done down there.

Should we not believe her just she did not referrence that?
Or if nobody else corroborates this?

What about Meredith's BAC you always luv to discuss?
BN writes that the cops screwed up, the BAC was because Miss Kercher's body was stored improperly after death, another in what we now know of as a long list of Italian law enforcements goof-ups.

You don't believe B. Nadeau's writing of Mez's BAC either, correct?
Instead you cast doubt on what Meredith's English gal pals apparently testified about, that NO liquor was consumed at their lil' get together. Barbie researched way more than you or I ever did, and though she too made mistakes, there is much truth in her book, as in Candace Dempsey's book, Nina Burliegh's book, etc.

Esh, the main bloggers on this case have written a book too, it's just in blog style!
Gosh, I've learned more about the Perugia scene by reading LMT's old blog than I ever did reading any newspaper article, the likes of which you often quote from. And I've surely learned much about Perugia's history and how Mignini fits in from reading Nina Burleigh's book too...

Writing of goof-ups, gosh the ILE sure did many.
What police officer, who sees a foot sticking out from under a blanket,
does not approach and check the victim for a pulse?

And who, when 1st examining a decadent,
does not take the corpses body temerature?

Barbie, who apparently luvs the prosecution, tells the world that ILE made mistakes?
Well I for 1 kinda believe it when a pro-guilt author admits that ILE made another mistake
and it does makes sense. Much more sense than a buncha girls lying in court about having a drink or 2...


Come on, Grinder,
get over the nit-picking, do something more productive.

Since Rudy Guede's trial was held almost secrectly,
why don't you spend your time researching him instead of attacking CD or whomever researched and wrote a book?


Grinder,
you believe that Amanda and Raff are innocent, right?
Forget about CD. Dig deep and find out all you can about the dude who probably, if he was really on a date with Meredith as you seem to believe, apparently commited Date Rape and Murder.

The same guy who fondled Meredith, who left his DNA on Meredith's sweatshirt wristband sleeve, her purse zipper, who left his sneaker prints everywhere, even on a pillowcase under Meredith's naked buttocks, the same dude who left Meredith Kercher to die a horrible death.

Who did Rudy date? Who did Rudy hang with?
A dude who mighta shed that blonde hair that Barbie Nadeau wrote about that ILE apparently lost while in possesion of? The same 1 that PMF.net has a photo of? Did Kokomani have longish blonde hair?
What's the whole Rudy Guede timeline, what did Rudy do after he left Mez to die, where did he sleep that night, was he drunk, high or coked out when he did continue dancing as a moment of silence was held in The Memory of Meredith? Why did someone who knew Rudy say that Guede stole womens purses in crowded places, why was he in posssestion of a womens gold watch, when he did not have a girlfriend even. Etc, etc, etc.

I'd really look forward to reading something from you that would be much more productive to this brutal murder case we discuss, in minute detail, if YOU really believe that Amanda and Raff did not murder Meredith Kercher nor had anything to do with helping Rudy Guede rape and murder Meredith...
My opinions only.
Peace,
RW

 

[RandyN]

The problem is several small and sometimes big fishes foolishly relied on Frank Sfarzo.
Franks Sfarzo - a jobless blogger - was paid by Gogery Marriott to act as a "source" for Candace Dempsey, and later he became a factual point of reference for Bruce Fisher, IIP people and several non-Italian reporters who had no clue about what was going on in the courtroom.

Oxymoron alert!!! Well too late if you read the highlighted part first...

I suppose this could all be possible about Frank. I doubt there is any evidence to prove any of it though. Why would GM act to secure a source for CD? I could understand if CD hired Frank herself. That would actually be a smart move. Honestly no different than what the Kerchers are doing with Maresca. Or perhaps AK family hired Frank to help with interpreting the legal and in Italian mumbo jumbo. Perfectly logical and legal.

I have read Franks posts on his blog. I sometimes disagreed with his take on things but for the most part I found his points logical and honest if a bit flowery in their telling. Personally I think he went overboard in trying to first warn Mignini and then by coddling the idiot. I suppose he was afraid to tell the whole truth about the man and his illogical ideas. Afraid that he would become a target of Migninis wrath. Oh...and look what happened. A legal maneuver silenced someone speaking the truth about this case. Who could have seen that coming?

 

[moije2]

For a guy that does not even own nor completely read any books on this murder case we discuss, well I'm slightly troubled by your often put downs of the writers of these books Grinder. What gives? Esh 2 book authors even went to prison in the story they write of, but you still have not, from what I know, read the books of their own personal experiences.
Hmmm.

Sure, all of these book authors have made a mistake or 2,3 or even more,
but hey, they surely did more investigating than you or I ever did or will most likely do. Right?

Let me get back to Nadeau.
Barbie writes, among many other things in her book Angel Face
that Meredith had a Brazilian wax job done down there.

Should we not believe her just she did not referrence that?
Or if nobody else corroborates this?

What about Meredith's BAC you always luv to discuss?
BN writes that the cops screwed up, the BAC was because Miss Kercher's body was stored improperly after death, another in what we now know of as a long list of Italian law enforcements goof-ups.

You don't believe B. Nadeau's writing of Mez's BAC either, correct?
Instead you cast doubt on what Meredith's English gal pals apparently testified about, that NO liquor was consumed at their lil' get together. Barbie researched way more than you or I ever did, and though she too made mistakes, there is much truth in her book, as in Candace Dempsey's book, Nina Burliegh's book, etc.

Esh, the main bloggers on this case have written a book too, it's just in blog style!
Gosh, I've learned more about the Perugia scene by reading LMT's old blog than I ever did reading any newspaper article, the likes of which you often quote from. And I've surely learned much about Perugia's history and how Mignini fits in from reading Nina Burleigh's book too...

Writing of goof-ups, gosh the ILE sure did many.
What police officer, who sees a foot sticking out from under a blanket,
does not approach and check the victim for a pulse?

And who, when 1st examining a decadent,
does not take the corpses body temerature?

Barbie, who luvs the prosecution, tells the world that ILE made mistakes?
I kinda believe it when a pro-guilt author admits that ILE made another mistake and it makes sense.


Come on, Grinder,
get over the nit-picking, do something more productive.

Since Rudy Guede's trial was held almost secrectly,
why don't you spend your time researching him instead of attacking CD or whomever researched and wrote a book?


Grinder,
you believe that Amanda and Raff are innocent, right?
Forget about CD. Dig deep and find out all you can about the dude who probably, if he was really on a date with Meredith as you seem to believe, apparently commited Date Rape and Murder.

The same guy who fondled Meredith, who left his DNA on Meredith's sweatshirt wristband sleeve, her purse zipper, who left his sneaker prints everywhere, even on a pillowcase under Meredith's naked buttocks, the same dude who left Meredith Kercher to die a horrible death.

Who did Rudy hang with, the dude who mighta shed that lost blonde hair that Barbie Nadeau wrote about that PMF.net has a photo of? What's the whole Rudy Guede timeline, what did Rudy do after he left Mez to die, where did he sleep that night, was he drunk, high or coked out when he did continue dancing as a moment of silence was held in The Memory of Meredith? Why did someone who knew Rudy say that Guede stole womens purses in crowded places, why was he in posssestion of a womens gold watch, when he did not have a girlfriend even. Etc, etc, etc.

I'd really look forward to reading something from you that would be much more productive to this brutal murder case we discuss, in minute detail, if YOU really believe that Amanda and Raff did not murder Meredith Kercher nor had anything to do with helping Rudy Guede rape and murder Meredith...
My opinions only.
Peace,
RW

Gee willikers. Loving your contributions to this site. Una pregunta por favor, what is "LMT's old blog"?

 

[RandyN]

Machiavelli - you fundamentally misunderstand the issue here. I am not claiming at all that Judge Massei did not convict. The reasons you list, are those reasons mainly that Judge Massei and/or Mignini invented out of thin air. There was no evidence at all to convict Amanda and Raffaele, other than the assertions made. 1. There is no evidence at all to say that the knife seized at Raffaele's is even the murder weapon, let alone that Amanda welded one. I am sure there is plenty at McCall's wiki that says otherwise. 2. No one even knows who McCall is!!!
The issue is that Massei at best wrote a self-contradictory report. I have never said that Massei did not make claims that justified (in his mind, and apparently yours) conviction.

And yes, Hellmann's acquittals were undone by the ISC. But the reasons for which they came to that decision have themselves not been undone so far by the Nencini court. The Nencini court has so far simply sustained Hellmann's rationale, based on Aviello and the 36l DNA sample.

And also, you have completely ignored the things I posted 3. which Massei also said. Of course you ignore them.

They go completely contrary to the claims you make. They demonstrate that Massei believed there was no motive, no psychopathology, and no animosity.

Give it up. Who else are you going to call an "approximate reporter"? Will you dump Mignini before dumping Andrea Vogt, like you've already dumped Barbie Nadeau and slandered John Kercher?

1. Not only that but there is strong evidence that the knife removed from RS apartment is not and never could have been the murder weapon. Such important facts such as no match to the bloody knife imprints on the sheet, no match to any of the wounds, no blood, no evidence of any cleaning...in fact starch as well as dirty stains near the blade/handle junction both indicate the opposite...no or poor cleaning...so where is the blood? Where is the DNA? Where is the matching wounds? (that account for the bruising from the full knife plunge right up to the hilt or joint of the folding knife that was obviously used?

2. I do. McCall is Brandon Mull former doctor turned attempted murderer.

3. I think it is a failed attempt to try to use Massei for anything except for what it actually is. The dumbest legal document ever produced by anyone in the whole world by someone pretending to actually be a judge. Massei is an idiot who tried to explain the time line of the prosecutions case. He sounds as crazy and subjective and approximate as anyone who would attempt to do that same thing. That is why so far NO ONE has even tried to do this except for Massei. Y/Mach has refused, PMF 1 and 2 dot nut jobs have all refused. Pervert dancing bear... its in the contract... (did I get it right?) Quinell refuses...and so do all his Italian lawyers...why its just ominous that there is a COMPLETE FAILURE for anyone up to and including the idiotic Italian Supreme Court do even attempt to do so. And there is a reason for that. Because everyone sees how that turned out in the Massei version...and please spare me that RS and AK were convicted. Any sane person simply reading all 400 plus pages of the nonsense would have to reject the conclusions...after they stopped laughing that is.

 

[Antony]

That is wrong I am sorry, it is 28 to 30% believe they are innocent, or 70 to 72% believe in guilt.

Not necessarily, unless we are to think the Italian population are 100% polarised on the issue. There are likely to be a fair number of "don't knows" and "they didn't do it, but are involved somehow".

Where did the figure come from?

 

[Antony]

Hellmann & Zanetti were "undone" by the Supreme Court. Their decision doesn't exist.

I would like an answer to my question by what legal provision the SC acted as they did, on the basis of challenging Hellman's interpretation of the evidence. If not, what were the legal errors in the Hellman trial that led to the SC decision?