Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Kaosium]

I was fairly certain that Mignini didn't refer to Amanda as she-devil. I think the word "she-devil" may have come from google translate.

That was Patrick Lumumba's attorney in his closing statement during the appeal.

I have not ever had the opinion that Mignini was sensational in his prosecution of the Kercher murder (I cannot say the same for all the attorneys involved).

While there were other institutions involved and Mignini has taken the blame for them amongst some, it was he who took that 'theory' of a comics-fueled drugged sex game before Matteini with no actual evidence to support anything outside the ones they had arrested had been smoking hash the night of the murder. That and two confused statements that didn't do any more than 'confusedly' incriminate one and were so disjointed and free of facts of the crime they should have raised suspicions.

And translations of articles, documents and court transcripts from Italian to English and reverse are dependent on who and what does the translations as for their accuracy and cultural influences.

Indeed, and when they are wildly distorted from the original and with bias it tells you something about the translator. Have you ever wondered why the translator, Anna Domino, didn't pick up on the fact that the texts Patrick and Amanda exchanged didn't say what she typed up for Amanda to sign? Amanda could barely speak the language and in the state Domino described her wasn't fit to sign a payday loan, let alone something that would be used as a confession and accusation.

As far as when Mignini was a satanist along with his second job of taking photos and selling them underground to newspapers, and any other negative image that can be applied to him, maybe that can be found in Micheli's decision using google translate?

I doubt it. That's actually kinda funny the way you put it though.

But really, Mignini can only be blamed for so much (without adequate documentation) before one begins to wonder why and to question the motives of those making the allegations.

When a person has filed charges, or caused charges to be filed on, in excess of forty people for a suicide and a botched burglary that should have warranted only one charge amongst them and generated bizarre theories of double body-swaps and comic book inspired drugged up orgiastic sex games he tends to lose the benefit of the doubt with some.

He hurts people, he hurts their families and he hurts their friends and those supporting them. He preys on the bereaved, elderly matrons like the wife of Dr. Narducci and the Kercher family who may never recover from his machinations in this case. He lies, and he does it so very well to those who don't know the nature of facts but treasure them, which is why he could probably get the Apollo Hoax Theory through an Italian court.

It still wouldn't be reality though.

 

[toto]

The earliest motive the BBC website gives from Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini is from 23rd October, 2008 where they say he “claimed a "manga" magazine, featuring vampires and found in Mr Sollecito's house, inspired the murder.”
Has anyone tracked down the specific magazine to which he refers and had a look at it?

 

[acbytesla]

Well, except for the obvious fact that he maintains the others murdered her because of her hesitation to engage in sex with them.

Calling Meredith shy, reserved and possibly annoyed by sexual expression is basically a way of saying Meredith was a good girl. The fact is, he made it all up, because those who knew Meredith report her as outgoing, friendly, and socially and sexually active.

In contrast, to characterize the "killers," he brings up all the things you brought up in one of your previous posts, for example, Raffaele's so-called interest in pornography and violence, etc.

If he didn't want to condemn Amanda's sexual practices, why would he ever bring up the topic of what she kept in her transparent make-up bag?



Public openness about sex does not translate to healthy attitudes about sex. It translates to keeping the patriarchy happily stimulated and to maintaining shallow, uncommitted relationships that enable polygamy and sexual abuse. And apparently it allows people to see sex in every situation, even when it isn't there.

I'm not entirely sure that I agree with the highlighted quote. I'm don't know that it has a negative or positive effect. It's the overall attitude toward sex that makes a difference. Discussing it as a titillating certainly doesn't help. It is the context of how it is discussed that makes all the difference. So, I conditionally agree and disagree.

Keeping it taboo and repressed isn't positive either.

 

[Dan O.]

I acknowledge obvious physical evidence of multiple perpetrators from the very beginnning. I would notice this from minute zero when if I walked in the house. I would also immediately deduce that some of the perpetrators had come back to the scene some time after the murder.

That sounds like Francesco Maresca talking. If fact, it is essentially what Maresca did say when he came into this case and took a last minute walkthrough of the cottage. Had he had a chance to review the case file first? Or, had he only assessed the financial profiles of the defendants and realized immediately that if he was going to get paid on this case he was going to need defendants other than Rudy Guede found guilty.

• Only Rudy could have thrown that rock through Filomenia's window before Meredith came home that night. Nobody is throwing a rock through a window while there is a dead body inside the cottage.
• Rudy acknowledges searching Amanda's sock drawer for the missing money. Problem is that Amanda doesn't have a sock drawer. Rudy was in Laura's room and therefore was alone in the cottage.
• Rudy taking a crap in the Italian girls bathroom says that neither Amanda nor Meredith was there to point him to the bathroom that they were responsible for cleaning.
• The perpetrator of this crime got his hands bloodied and there was not a clean hand in the room to open Meredith's bedroom door from the inside.
• Rudy ripped off Meredith's bra by pulling on the band behind her right shoulder where he left his DNA on the band. This was done after Meredith was fatally stabbed and after Rudy had washed most of the blood off of his hands but not before Meredith had breathed her last.
• Rudy walked out of Meredith's room and to the front door. But Rudy did not get outside at this time. He turned around at the door and stepped back into the living room and stood in front of the couch facing the back room where Meredith lay dying.
• Rudy needed a key to open the front door. He would need to return to the murder room to search for those keys.
• Rudy's DNA is found on the zipper on Meredith's purse.

These are the facts we know supported by solid evidence that we have discussed at length on this forum. The facts all support the lone assailant Rudy Guede committing this crime. There is nothing but the wild speculation of the prosecutor and the fevered desire of the Kercher's lawyer that supports any other scenario.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

It's a pretty amazing and astounding claim is it not. I am in awe of his expertise, in just about anything and on almost every subject. To reconstruct the crime and the clean up from just walking into the room. Immediately even, like he didn't even have to ponder it.

This has been a huge problem for the prosecution, an area where they want to assert generalities, as Machiavelli has done, without getting into details. What happened is clear from the crime scene photos, and it wasn't a "sex game" or a group attack. It was one guy with a knife in his right hand who was behind a frantically struggling victim, using the full weight of his body to push her down and control her just long enough to cut her throat.

Mignini commissioned a reconstruction for his closing argument, as we know, and it has never seen the light of day. I am told Massei threatened to jail anyone who leaked it to the media. I can understand why from some of the working sketches that did leak out.

You see below how they have had to position their multiple assailants to make their scenario map to the evidence at the crime scene. Notice how they are standing back and off to the side, so as not to interfere with the pattern of blood spatter shown in the photos, while a passive victim allows her throat to be cut. It is ridiculous. It almost looks as though they are trying to help her to her feet after a fall.

 

[RoseMontague]

That sounds like Francesco Maresca talking. If fact, it is essentially what Maresca did say when he came into this case and took a last minute walkthrough of the cottage. Had he had a chance to review the case file first? Or, had he only assessed the financial profiles of the defendants and realized immediately that if he was going to get paid on this case he was going to need defendants other than Rudy Guede found guilty.

• Only Rudy could have thrown that rock through Filomenia's window before Meredith came home that night. Nobody is throwing a rock through a window while there is a dead body inside the cottage.
• Rudy acknowledges searching Amanda's sock drawer for the missing money. Problem is that Amanda doesn't have a sock drawer. Rudy was in Laura's room and therefore was alone in the cottage.
• Rudy taking a crap in the Italian girls bathroom says that neither Amanda nor Meredith was there to point him to the bathroom that they were responsible for cleaning.
• The perpetrator of this crime got his hands bloodied and there was not a clean hand in the room to open Meredith's bedroom door from the inside.
• Rudy ripped off Meredith's bra by pulling on the band behind her right shoulder where he left his DNA on the band. This was done after Meredith was fatally stabbed and after Rudy had washed most of the blood off of his hands but not before Meredith had breathed her last.
• Rudy walked out of Meredith's room and to the front door. But Rudy did not get outside at this time. He turned around at the door and stepped back into the living room and stood in front of the couch facing the back room where Meredith lay dying.
• Rudy needed a key to open the front door. He would need to return to the murder room to search for those keys.
• Rudy's DNA is found on the zipper on Meredith's purse.

These are the facts we know supported by solid evidence that we have discussed at length on this forum. The facts all support the lone assailant Rudy Guede committing this crime. There is nothing but the wild speculation of the prosecutor and the fevered desire of the Kercher's lawyer that supports any other scenario.

Excellent analysis.

 

[billyryan]

When a person has filed charges, or caused charges to be filed on, in excess of forty people for a suicide and a botched burglary that should have warranted only one charge amongst them and generated bizarre theories of double body-swaps and comic book inspired drugged up orgiastic sex games he tends to lose the benefit of the doubt with some.

He hurts people, he hurts their families and he hurts their friends and those supporting them. He preys on the bereaved, elderly matrons like the wife of Dr. Narducci and the Kercher family who may never recover from his machinations in this case. He lies, and he does it so very well to those who don't know the nature of facts but treasure them, which is why he could probably get the Apollo Hoax Theory through an Italian court.

It still wouldn't be reality though[/I


]His day of reckoning is coming though Kaosium,the case is now in a city where he made powerful enemies,he is for some reason, we don't understand yet, forced to put bare faced lies in writing about the satanic rite motive,I bet there are many behind the scenes in Florence who are itching to put Mignini in handcuffs

 

[Machiavelli]

My guess is Lucifer in English is the same as the Italian here. The ina probably indicates gender like femmina. She-Devil is probably pretty close.

I have more Spezi quotes, sorry.

Luciferina/luciferino is an adjective. It's a slightly colorful equivalent of diabolical. Lucifero and Diavolo are the same person.
She-Devil is a noun so I won't consider it a correct translation.

 

[RoseMontague]

This has been a huge problem for the prosecution, an area where they want to assert generalities, as Machiavelli has done, without getting into details. What happened is clear from the crime scene photos, and it wasn't a "sex game" or a group attack. It was one guy with a knife in his right hand who was behind a frantically struggling victim, using the full weight of his body to push her down and control her just long enough to cut her throat.

Mignini commissioned a reconstruction for his closing argument, as we know, and it has never seen the light of day. I am told Massei threatened to jail anyone who leaked it to the media. I can understand why from some of the working sketches that did leak out.

You see below how they have had to position their multiple assailants to make their scenario map to the evidence at the crime scene. Notice how they are standing back and off to the side, so as not to interfere with the pattern of blood spatter shown in the photos, while a passive victim allows her throat to be cut. It is ridiculous. It almost looks as though they are trying to help her to her feet after a fall.

The prosecution claim I have seen (Mignini IIRC) has Meredith on her knees with Rudy and Raffaele holding her arms to the side and Amanda stabbing her in the throat with the knife. I guess that would put Amanda in the wardrobe or through the wall in this reconstruction. Guess whoever did this gem didn't think much of Mignini's theory.

 

[RoseMontague]

Luciferina/luciferino is an adjective. It's a slightly colorful equivalent of diabolical. Lucifero and Diavolo are the same person.
She-Devil is a noun so I won't consider it a correct translation.

It's a Luciferina riti then. A diabolical fun party. LOL.

 

[Dan O.]

I was under the impression that Ron said it was thrown from outside, not necessarily from the car park. But I would defer to his work.

It may be possible by examining the rock's necessary trajectory given the physical evidence of the rock's final position and the marks left on the window to eliminate one of the two starting positions. So far as I know, this has not been done.

Given that there is a slope between the car park and the lower yard which we only learn about from the 5-chan video, there are also multiple intermediat positions from which to toss the rock. The lower yard gives the advantage of concealment while the slope offers some height advantage.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>I have not ever had the opinion that Mignini was sensational in his prosecution of the Kercher murder (I cannot say the same for all the attorneys involved). And translations of articles, documents and court transcripts from Italian to English and reverse are dependent on who and what does the translations as for their accuracy and cultural influences.

I haven't read the transcripts of Mignini's complaint and arguments in court, so I can't say whether he was or was not sensational. However, I continue to believe he prosecuted the case in the media, and that the media presentation was obviously sensational.

Did you ever see Mignini advocate for moderation in the media coverage (except in the appeal, when he was losing)? Did you ever hear of him working to make sure nothing was leaked and/or misinterpreted? Did you ever see him condemn Sarzanini's publication of Amanda's personal diary? Did you ever hear that he declined to comment on any aspect of the case?

He made a choice to allow sensationalism on his behalf.

As far as when Mignini was a satanist along with his second job of taking photos and selling them underground to newspapers, and any other negative image that can be applied to him, maybe that can be found in Micheli's decision using google translate?

But really, Mignini can only be blamed for so much (without adequate documentation) before one begins to wonder why and to question the motives of those making the allegations.

I think our motives are pretty clear, christianahannah. We want to argue that Mignini was the mastermind of an injustice, and that there are many aspects to his ideas, behavior, and life history that support the argument.

I actually agree with you to a certain extent. I think there is some danger in making a monster of Mignini, because it implies that the circumstances are unique and uncommon, when in fact this kind of injustice takes place all the time. Calling Mignini a psychopath, for example, suggests that only a psychopath could do what he did. Obviously, that isn't true.

I don't like turning him into a demi-god by giving him so much attention. He strikes me as a weak, insecure man whose only power is in his job. On the other hand, he was in charge of the investigation, so the buck has to stop with him.

 

[Diocletus]

What I think is that the actual average opinion of Italians (or even Catholics) about Saxon Americans - and, I can tell that's Mignini's opinion too - is that Americans have sexuophobic attitudes. In general, also the British are perceived as typically more "prude" people by Italians.

Really, I think it's just that Americans are less likely to make up perverted murder fantasies.

Maybe the Italians should lay off the boobies for a little while.

 

[Kaosium]

The earliest motive the BBC website gives from Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini is from 23rd October, 2008 where they say he “claimed a "manga" magazine, featuring vampires and found in Mr Sollecito's house, inspired the murder.”
Has anyone tracked down the specific magazine to which he refers and had a look at it?

Yes, it's called "The Last Vampire" and you can read it online at that link. I paged through it a couple years back and was unimpressed, though someone chimed in to say it was considered a classic in the genre.

 

[katy_did]

I was under the impression that Ron said it was thrown from outside, not necessarily from the car park. But I would defer to his work.

What do you think of the weight of the stone, acby? I ask because I thought it might have been thrown from below as well (or even that Rudy carried it up) but then I found a rock of a similar weight and changed my mind... I could see someone throwing it horizontally from the car park, but I wouldn't want to risk it crashing down on my head by trying to throw it upwards!

But then, I'm female and have really pathetic upper body strength; it might be different for a man of Rudy's build (or any man, for that matter).

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>Mignini commissioned a reconstruction for his closing argument, as we know, and it has never seen the light of day. I am told Massei threatened to jail anyone who leaked it to the media. I can understand why from some of the working sketches that did leak out.

You see below how they have had to position their multiple assailants to make their scenario map to the evidence at the crime scene. Notice how they are standing back and off to the side, so as not to interfere with the pattern of blood spatter shown in the photos, while a passive victim allows her throat to be cut. It is ridiculous. It almost looks as though they are trying to help her to her feet after a fall.

I've always liked the way they are dressed as commandos, or a SWAT team.

 

[acbytesla]

I think our motives are pretty clear, christianahannah. We want to argue that Mignini was the mastermind of an injustice, and that there are many aspects to his ideas, behavior, and life history that support the argument.

I actually agree with you to a certain extent. I think there is some danger in making a monster of Mignini, because it implies that the circumstances are unique and uncommon, when in fact this kind of injustice takes place all the time. Calling Mignini a psychopath, for example, suggests that only a psychopath could do what he did. Obviously, that isn't true.

I don't like turning him into a demi-god by giving him so much attention. He strikes me as a weak, insecure man whose only power is in his job. On the other hand, he was in charge of the investigation, so the buck has to stop with him.

I agree Mary. I would suggest that Mignini has sociopathic not psychopathic tendencies. Where Amanda and Raffaele are only pawns in his life and not true human beings.

But as you said, Mignini is just one player in this farce, there are others. Even the ISC got into the act.

 

[katy_did]

The bra was removed by pulling with enough force to deform the hooks and rip the stitching out where the shoulder strap and clasp attach to the band. This happened after enough blood had flowed from the neck wounds to saturate the right shoulder strap and aspirated blood droplets had fallen on the top surfaces of the cups.

But there is one other spot of blood on the bra of particular interest in determining the timing of events. On the back band where it was grabbed to pull it apart, where Rudy's DNA was left behind, there is a spot that saturated the fabric. But this spot was not all red like the other saturating spots. This saturated spot is diluted blood that can only come from after Rudy visited the bathroom to wash up.

As you say Dan, the right bra strap is saturated - probably from the 'minor' wound on the right side - but the left strap is not, despite the much larger wound on that side. That might suggest the bra was removed after one or both of the smaller wounds were made, but before the major one, or at least before blood from that wound had a chance to saturate the other strap. When you take into account where both the bra and clasp were found (towards the middle of the room rather than near the wardrobe) and the fact that there were drops of blood near the desk, I'm beginning to think that may be the most likely explanation. The fact the wounds were on different sides of the neck would therefore be because there was a short amount of time between them, and Meredith and Guede were positioned differently - not, as the PGP claim, because there were multiple attackers.

I disagree with you that we can tell with any certainty which spots of blood were diluted and which not, either on the bra or the jeans (blood is something like 80 or 90% water anyway, isn't it?). Logically I think the blood on the jeans and the brown purse probably was diluted, because Rudy would most likely have looked for the keys just before leaving, but it's not certain. A faint trace of 'neat' blood (for want of a better word!) would likely look pretty much the same as a trace of dilute blood.

Also, bear in mind that just because Rudy's DNA was found in the same place as the trace you mention, doesn't necessarily mean it's associated with it, because the police mainly sampled bloodstains. If they'd taken samples from other, non-bloodstained areas of the bra, they might well have found more traces of Rudy's DNA. I'm sure it was in more places than just that one trace.

 

[acbytesla]

What do you think of the weight of the stone, acby? I ask because I thought it might have been thrown from below as well (or even that Rudy carried it up) but then I found a rock of a similar weight and changed my mind... I could see someone throwing it horizontally from the car park, but I wouldn't want to risk it crashing down on my head by trying to throw it upwards!

But then, I'm female and have really pathetic upper body strength; it might be different for a man of Rudy's build (or any man, for that matter).

It's thirteen feet from the ground to the bottom of the window. But it really is only being propelled about 7 feet upwards from about shoulder height. It wouldn't have been hard for Rudy from either location. But we'll never know. If it was from the car park than the inside shutter would have had to have been at least partially closed.

 

[katy_did]

It's thirteen feet from the ground to the bottom of the window. But it really is only being propelled about 7 feet upwards from about shoulder height. It wouldn't have been hard for Rudy from either location. But we'll never know. If it was from the car park than the inside shutter would have had to have been at least partially closed.

Have you tried holding a rock that weight, though? I'm genuinely curious because for me, it would have been impossible to throw it upwards that far, and feeling how heavy it was changed my mind about how it was thrown. But as I said, I'm not sure how much my pathetic upper body strength factors into that - maybe it really would be quite easy for someone stronger, like your (I assume) big strong self.

ETA: Yes, I think Filomena said she pulled the inner shutters towards the window, but didn't fasten them.