Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Samson]

Then it is a vocal minority. Kind of like here with PMF .NUT and .ORG. So even with the press that has been writing such horrible things about Amanda the majority thinks she is innocent. Just goes to show.

I regret that very major error, I have just corrected, in fact PQ claims a mere 5% believe they are innocent, though clearly a manufactured number.

 

[RandyN]

I may have this wrong (Cody get the hammer out if you wish) but as I recall C&V never said that Meredith's DNA wasn't found on the knife but rather that the methodology of the ICSI was so lacking that contamination could be ruled out. This is totally different from saying the DNA turned out to be starch.

I challenge you to produce a quote from C&V that says precisely Meredith's DNA found by Stefanoni was in fact starch.



And I can't make you actually produce sources and facts to back your positing. C&V is not "totally exculpatory" but rather puts the reasonable doubt well beyond the not guilty level. I totally think that the DNA should never have been allowed in because of the protocol not followed and methodology of testing.

Why don't you say that the DNA turned out to be turnip juice?

You can argue this to the cows come home but...Grinder is correct.

It is no less a mistake to say this even if as suggested Sara Gino once said this. If she did then she was either misunderstood or mis-translated or else is factually wrong...and I doubt Gino is factually wrong...so it must be one or both of the first two choices.

In the grand scheme, the overall facts of the reliability of all LTN,LCN samples done in Biondos lab by lab tech Stefanoni are unreliable and unusable for a large number of reasons. In fact there are enough errors that mistaking a sample as starch is not only wrong but completely unnecessary.

My guess is that to explain the gross amount of scientific reasoning is perhaps beyond the author or the audience and in fact may well be a intentional dumbing down of the facts... that while completely incorrect, actually gets to the jest of the heart of the matter in a simple and easily understood idea (even if wrong).

The truth is this sample 36b can never be identified since it was smaller than what is needed to accomplish that identification. Add the facts of the suspicious events that surround this sample or samples and it begins to look as if rather than a mistake the results are actually obtained by purposeful corrupt acts.

The suspicious facts start when Stefanoni lies in court about the quantification of said sample...she said the size was "a couple of hundred picograms" which was later discovered to actually be 5 to 10 picograms and I always add and maybe zero picograms because at the miniscule size, zero is actually a possibility...which in other words says that maybe there was something but at such low ...TOO LOW...level that it could be a contamination or a dirty machine for example. But the further evidence of suspicious activity is the failure of the prosecution to produce these control data sheets. That is more evidence of corrupt behavior rather than a simple sloppy error.

Now add the total failure at honest discovery by the prosecution in the first trial (Massei called an early recess because of it) so I don't understand what YMach keeps yapping about "no one asked for the data" in his ridiculous arguments. In fact Hellmann gave Comodi and Stefanoni two chances to produce the control data and they failed both times...an honest court would have declared a mistrial at least and more likely would have tossed the prosecution and the case out of its courtrooms for bringing such a mockery against truth before it...in Italy is appears it is perfectly fine to make a mockery of the court as long as it is the court officers doing the denigrating.

So I agree with Grinder...there is no reason to create non facts about this case when there are volumes of real facts that make it ridiculous and stupid and corrupt and incorrect and even dumb. Far more than the required beyond a reasonable doubt. What is becoming clear beyond a reasonable doubt is the the Italian judiciary has circled the wagons and have no intention of even attempting to pass this mess off as a fair trial.

So fine...the whole mess will come out at the appeal of extradition hearing in front of a USA judge. Ahhhh good luck with that one Italy.

 

[Machiavelli]

Main source for what? I recall Frank operating a minor blog and he posted his opinions in English of what he saw in court that day. And since he attended most court sessions it was often timely...still it was a blog which is different from an objective news agency. In fact this was not a huge international story at all. The majors rarely bothered to send any reporters. They foolishly relied on hacks and liars like Barbie and Vogt. Dont worry she is about to go down in shame...as she should.

The problem is several small and sometimes big fishes foolishly relied on Frank Sfarzo.
Franks Sfarzo - a jobless blogger - was paid by Gogery Marriott to act as a "source" for Candace Dempsey, and later he became a factual point of reference for Bruce Fisher, IIP people and several non-Italian reporters who had no clue about what was going on in the courtroom.

 

[Machiavelli]

(...)
Machiavelli tries to fudge on the "sex game gone wrong", because it does not fit into Massei's narrative of the crime. Go read Massei, pages 392-394. It is Rudy's lust and his lust alone which is the cause - at least according to Massei's narrative, now at odds with Mignini and Machiavelli. (It always was.)
(...)

Yes, and Knox was not convicted of sexual violence.... as for Massei Rudy did nothing alone.

 

[HumanityBlues]

The problem is several small and sometimes big fishes foolishly relied on Frank Sfarzo.
Franks Sfarzo - a jobless blogger - was paid by Gogery Marriott to act as a "source" for Candace Dempsey, and later he became a factual point of reference for Bruce Fisher, IIP people and several non-Italian reporters who had no clue about what was going on in the courtroom.

You have actual evidence that Marriott was paying Frank Sfarzo? Of course not. It's amazing how many stupid unsourced facts get added the Marriot myth. You could tell a guilter Marriott threatened Hellman to acquit Amanda "or else" and they'd probably believe it. Get real.

 

[Bill Williams]

(...)
Machiavelli tries to fudge on the "sex game gone wrong", because it does not fit into Massei's narrative of the crime. Go read Massei, pages 392-394. It is Rudy's lust and his lust alone which is the cause - at least according to Massei's narrative, now at odds with Mignini and Machiavelli. (It always was.)
(...)

Yes, and Knox was not convicted of sexual violence.... as for Massei Rudy did nothing alone.

You're kind of changing the subject. Yes, we ARE talking about what Judge Massei said.

So if your theory is a "sex-game" gone wrong..... this is what Massei says. Yes, you can accuse me of picking and choosing, but at least it is better than you saying that Massei confirmed Mignini... no he did not, not really. Try these quotes on for size... and, oh yes, I suppose you're going to quote some Italian law that says that these things actually mean the opposite of what Massei said.

This is, in essence, Massei's theory of the crime. Your argument is with him not me.....

It should further be noted that the criminal acts were carried out on the force of purely chance contingencies which, put together one with the other, created a situation that, in the combination of various factors, made possible the crimes to the detriment of Meredith: Amanda and Raffaele who suddenly found themselves without any commitments; they meet Rudy Guede by chance (there is no trace of any appointment having been made), and find themselves together with him at the house on the Via della Pergola where, precisely that evening, Meredith is alone. A crime that is carried out, therefore, without any planning, without any animosity or feelings of rancour against the victim which could be seen in any way as preparation-predisposition to [commit a] crime.

Without any anymosity - ergo, Amanda and Meredith had a normal, friendly relationship. So says Massei.

As to your claim that Amanda Knox was a psychopathetic murderer, this is what Massei had to say on the issue of psychopathology......

Both defendants are very young, and were younger still at the time the events [took place]. The inexperience and immaturity characteristic of youth were accentuated by the situation in which both found themselves because it [the situation] was different from that in which they had grown up and did not have the usual points of reference(family, friends, acquaintances made through the years, one’s own country and town of origin) which might have served as a continual support, [point of] comparison and check in the decisions of daily life

The effect of your myopic obsessing about Amanda Knox is to let Rudy Guede off the hook for this crime. Even Judge Massei agrees with the problem with this myopia...

It is not possible, however, to know if Rudy went to Meredith’s room on his own initiative, almost subjugated by the situation which he interpreted in erotic terms (the two young lovers in their room and Meredith who was on her own in the room right next to it) or, instead, he went to Meredith’s room at the urging of Amanda and/or Raffaele.

This Court is inclined towards the first hypothesis.
It cannot see, in fact, the motive for such an invitation on the part of Amanda Knox and/or of Raffaele Sollecito. Besides, Rudy does not seem to have needed to be encouraged to make advances toward Meredith.

So, Amanda and Raffaele have no motive. Who says this? Me? FOA? No, it is Judge Massei the convicting judge.

Why don't you give it up Machiavelli? Your narrative is at odds with Massei's narrative. As is Mignini's.

Is Massei an "approximate reporter," too?

 

[Machiavelli]

Machiavelli is now making awkward mistakes.

?

The Florence court - so far at least- has done nothing to undo Hellmann and Zanetti's decision to acquit.

Hellmann & Zanetti were "undone" by the Supreme Court. Their decision doesn't exist.

(...)

Machiavelli tries to fudge on the "sex game gone wrong", because it does not fit into Massei's narrative of the crime. Go read Massei, pages 392-394. It is Rudy's lust and his lust alone which is the cause - at least according to Massei's narrative, now at odds with Mignini and Machiavelli. (It always was.)

There is no sex game gone wrong? There is only Guede's lust?

p. 393: Massei – Cristiani take in account even the prosecution hints about suspects’ personalities including manga comics and sexual deviations (they too mention violent manga, Sollecito’s likes for violent porn, Knox's irresponsible search for excitement and her use of drugs, and hint that Amanda too was only interested in excitement, sexual lust and fun and high on drugs):

Pertanto è da ritenere che, non estraneo il consumo di sostanze stupefacenti e gli effetti dello stesso, Amanda Knox e Raffaele Sollecito parteciparono attivamente all'azione delittuosa di Rudi finalizzata a vincere la resistenza di Meredith, a soggiogarne la volontà e consentire così a Rudi di sfogare i propri impulsi lussuriosi; e questo è da ritenere che avvenne perché, in chi non disdegnava l'uso di droga (Amanda ha dichiarato che quella sera, prima di "fare l' amore" avevano consumato droga), la visione di film e la lettura di fumetti nei quali la sessualità si accompagna alla violenza ed a situazioni di paura e prescinde dall'incontro di persone mosse dal reciproco e libero sentimento (v. i fumetti sequestrati a Raffaele Sollecito e le dichiarazioni sulla visione di film che avevano attirato l'attenzione degli educatori del Collegio ONAOSI frequentato da Raffaele Sollecito), la prospettiva di aiutare Rudi nel proposito di soggiogare Meredith per abusarne sessualmente, poteva apparire come un eccitante particolare che, pur non previsto, andava sperimentato.

p. 397: Massei-Cristiani – among the other reasons which demonstrate multiple attackers - point out that the set of Meredith’s injuries are of very different kind and thus assume the other two did take part to the aggression also physically:

Numerose lesioni appaiono essere state causate da un'attività di afferramento; altre risultano essere state inferte con un'arma da punta e da taglio e si presentano tra loro diversissime per dimensione e lesività; inoltre, pur dirette contro la stessa regione corporea risultano aver attinto la vittima ora a destra e ora a sinistra. Ebbene, per sostenere l'unicità del soggetto agente occorrerebbe ipotizzare che la stessa persona abbia modificato di continuo la propria condotta lesiva e cioè abbia prima esercitato con le mani una forte pressione sulla vittima così da procurarle delle ecchimosi; si sia determinata poi a impugnare il coltello cambiando la natura della propria aggressione (condotta non più a mani nude ma utilizzando un'arma) e abbia colpito prima a destra (…) poi a sinistra

p. 403: Massei-Cristiani think that Amanda may have used the knife with the purpose to threat [scopo di mera minaccia] in order to carry on her actual purpose, a sexual violence on Meredith; and Massei-Cristiani agree with the prosecution even on the detail of thinking that Amanda was holding a knife:

E' inoltre del tutto plausibile che Amanda. tenendo tale coltello nella propria molto capiente borsa, quando insieme a Raffaele venne a trovarsi nella casa di Via della Pergola la sera tardi del 1 ° novembre, abbia potuto prendere tale coltello durante uno dei momenti in cui c'erano le avances di Rudi, la protesta di Meredith, la reazione di Rudi e questo può averlo fatto con lo scopo, inizialmente, di mera minaccia.

p. 402: The dynamic of the murder to Massei requires a second stabber, and the court thinks the second person carrying a blow with a knife was Amanda Knox:

Una dinamica che richiede la presenza di un secondo colpitore, di un secondo coltello. Questa Corte ritiene che tale secondo colpitore sia Amanda Knox e tale secondo coltello il reperto 36.

p. 400: Raffaele Sollecito pursued the same purpose of Rudy Guede, that is commit a sexual violence for lust [persegue con violenza lo stesso obiettivo di Rudy Guede], and he is the one who cut the bra strap after attempting to use force to open the clasp:

In relazione a quanto precede (Raffaele Sollecito presente attivamente sulla scena del delitto che, trovandosi alle spalle di Meredith sollecita con violenza il reggiseno fino a decidere di tagliarlo) deve affermarsi che Raffaele Sollecito non solo si trova sulla scena del delitto e persegue con violenza lo stesso obiettivo di Rudi Guede, ma vi si trova armato di un coltellino ben affilato (pericoloso e quindi capace di tagliare un tessu to resistente quale quello di un reggiseno (...)

p. 407: Massei-Cristiani point out that Amanda committed a sexual violence and they shared the same purpose [unico obiettivo insieme perseguito e insieme partecipato] and they carried it on together [insieme partecipato] with Rudy Guede. The purpose of Knox and Sollecito is to carry on a violent sexual game [situazione di violenza e di erotismo] to satisfy their sexual arousement [erotismo=sexual arousement]. And also that both Raffaele and Amanda physically caused Meredith’s injuries:

Anche Amanda, quindi, si trova sulla scena del delitto ed anche lei partecipa alle violenze su Meredith, accomunata a Raffaele e Rudi, dall'unico obiettivo insieme perseguito e insieme partecipato: soggiogare Meredith, consentire a Rudi di abusarne sessualmente, creare una situazione di violenza e di erotismo secondo quanto si è già osservato.
In questo contesto l'uccisione di Meredith, pur non costituendo la finalità diretta, diventava un' eventualità che facilmente si sarebbe realizzata per la regione corporea particolarmente vitale che veniva colpita (il collo); per la sicura idoneità dei mezzi utilizzati (coltelli capaci di procurare ferite profonde) e per la violenza esercitata sulla vittima: le mani portate a serrare la bocca e che impedivano la respirazione, i colpi ripetuti e violenti che cagionavano ferite profonde 4 e 8 centimetri.
(..)
Tale eventualità di morte, altamente probabile, veniva accettata e le azioni lesive poste in essere e proseguite sia da Amanda che da Raffaele i quali agivano perseguendo lo stesso obiettivo che li aveva accomunati a Rudi: sussiste pertanto la coscienza e la volontà di cagionare la morte nel contesto della violenza sessuale.

 

[Grinder]

Really, they weren't totally exculpatory??

C&V test conclusions
- The tests that we conducted to determine the presence of blood on item 36 (knife) and item 165B (bra clasps) yielded a negative result.

- The cytomorphological tests on the items did not reveal the presence of cellular material. Some samples of item 36 (knife), in particular sample “H”, present granules with a circular/hexagonal characteristic morphology with a cental radial structure. A more detailed microscopic study, together with the consultation of data in the literature, allowed us to ascertain that the structures in question are attributable to granules of starch, thus matter of a vegetable nature.

They concluded that what they found was starch not what Stefanoni found was starch. She said there was just enough material to do a test once and she concluded that it was Meredith's.

C&V disagreed with protocols followed and testing methodology. Clearly the ISC has said contamination must be proven and that the other experts must be considered so no they were not totally exculpatory.

Do you understand that the DNA found by Stefanoni could not possibly be found to have been starch?

 

[Grinder]

No, I believe Amanda and Raffaele. It's just that I know that some things are taken out of context or are incomplete. I believe Amanda when she said "she was there". But where "there" is different than where Vogt says "there" is.

She is interviewed by a friendly and clearly says the others had solid alibis and we didn't.

 

[acbytesla]

I regret that very major error, I have just corrected, in fact PQ claims a mere 5% believe they are innocent, though clearly a manufactured number.

Well Peter is not exactly a reliable source. He has been saying that he has "bleach receipts" for years.

 

[acbytesla]

They concluded that what they found was starch not what Stefanoni found was starch. She said there was just enough material to do a test once and she concluded that it was Meredith's.

C&V disagreed with protocols followed and testing methodology. Clearly the ISC has said contamination must be proven and that the other experts must be considered so no they were not totally exculpatory.

Do you understand that the DNA found by Stefanoni could not possibly be found to have been starch?

We'll never know what Stefanoni found. She hasn't proven herself to be either competent or credible.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Well Peter is not exactly a reliable source. He has been saying that he has "bleach receipts" for years.

He also said there was a legitimate contract. I'll leave that to insiders figure out .

 

[Bill Williams]

?



Hellmann & Zanetti were "undone" by the Supreme Court. Their decision doesn't exist.

(...)

Machiavelli - you fundamentally misunderstand the issue here. I am not claiming at all that Judge Massei did not convict. The reasons you list, are those reasons mainly that Judge Massei and/or Mignini invented out of thin air. There was no evidence at all to convict Amanda and Raffaele, other than the assertions made. There is no evidence at all to say that the knife seized at Raffaele's is even the murder weapon, let alone that Amanda welded one.

I am sure there is plenty at McCall's wiki that says otherwise. No one even knows who McCall is!!!

The issue is that Massei at best wrote a self-contradictory report. I have never said that Massei did not make claims that justified (in his mind, and apparently yours) conviction.

And yes, Hellmann's acquittals were undone by the ISC. But the reasons for which they came to that decision have themselves not been undone so far by the Nencini court. The Nencini court has so far simply sustained Hellmann's rationale, based on Aviello and the 36l DNA sample.

And also, you have completely ignored the things I posted which Massei also said. Of course you ignore them.

They go completely contrary to the claims you make. They demonstrate that Massei believed there was no motive, no psychopathology, and no animosity.

Give it up. Who else are you going to call an "approximate reporter"? Will you dump Mignini before dumping Andrea Vogt, like you've already dumped Barbie Nadeau and slandered John Kercher?

 

[Grinder]

Amanda is certain in her own mind that Rudy Guede murdered Meredith,she is not willing in anyway to make statements that might be construed as pointing the finger of accusation at any of her flatmates or Meredith's English friends,if only they had such honour,its not Amanda's job to check out Philomena's alibi and it's natural for her to believe she has one.

By the way Grinder if Sophie had become the object of Mignini's sadistic sexual obsession,what alibi has she got,all agree she was with Meredith a very short time before she was murdered,if you believe her she parted with Meredith on lonely city streets,yet she never made a phone call when she got home to check that Meredith did the same,which would be a natural thing to do,I do not know if she lived alone or has witnesses of her arrival home

Philomena's solid alibi statement just shows the nature of Amanda,despite Philomena doing her no favours in her testimony despite her knowledge of Perugia and Italy,Philomena never advised Amanda that she needed to talk to a lawyer for advice in the days after the murder,Philomena never visited her flatmate in Prison or as far as I know never wrote to her,yet despite the mindless cruelty she endured she is very careful not to say anything that could lead to problems for anyone else

You guys are a hoot.

Do you think that just maybe Filomena had a solid alibi?

You guys are completely convinced of her innocence and a conspiracy to convict her from day one so everything is viewed through that lens.

Until informed otherwise I will assume that Amanda knows what the alibis were from the officials and her lawyers.

I think Sophie not having any evidence at all in the whole cottage might her case and IIRC she was in a hurry to see a TV show that they probably asked her about and she knew what happened.

 

[acbytesla]

She is interviewed by a friendly and clearly says the others had solid alibis and we didn't.

Friendly or not, that doesn't mean it is complete

 

[Machiavelli]

As to your claim that Amanda Knox was a psychopathetic murderer, this is what Massei had to say on the issue of psychopathology......

Both defendants are very young, and were younger still at the time the events [took place]. The inexperience and immaturity characteristic of youth were accentuated by the situation in which both found themselves because it [the situation] was different from that in which they had grown up and did not have the usual points of reference(family, friends, acquaintances made through the years, one’s own country and town of origin) which might have served as a continual support, [point of] comparison and check in the decisions of daily life (...)

This is what Massei says about the mitigating circumstances. (!)
This is not about "the issue of psychopathology"

 

[acbytesla]

You guys are a hoot.

Do you think that just maybe Filomena had a solid alibi?

You guys are completely convinced of her innocence and a conspiracy to convict her from day one so everything is viewed through that lens.

Until informed otherwise I will assume that Amanda knows what the alibis were from the officials and her lawyers.
I think Sophie not having any evidence at all in the whole cottage might her case and IIRC she was in a hurry to see a TV show that they probably asked her about and she knew what happened.

Maybe she did, but if the prosecution didn't play games with the Time or Death or their computers, I think it is pretty clear that Amanda and Raffaele would have excellent alibis as well. But I have no idea what Amanda precisely knows about the alibis of her roommates.

T

 

[Grinder]

So I agree with Grinder...there is no reason to create non facts about this case when there are volumes of real facts that make it ridiculous and stupid and corrupt and incorrect and even dumb. Far more than the required beyond a reasonable doubt. What is becoming clear beyond a reasonable doubt is the the Italian judiciary has circled the wagons and have no intention of even attempting to pass this mess off as a fair trial.

So fine...the whole mess will come out at the appeal of extradition hearing in front of a USA judge. Ahhhh good luck with that one Italy.

Thanks Randy. I could write five pages of why I think the ILE screwed the case and how the evidence can't be viewed as credible but if I say the DNA wasn't starch and CD shouldn't have written that, that is all that people here seem to respond to.

I think this may well come down to the extradition though if the defense (both in and out of court) steps it up maybe there is still hope.

 

[acbytesla]

This is what Massei says about the mitigating circumstances. (!)
This is not about "the issue of psychopathology"

Those are mitigating circumstances? That they were away from home??

 

[Grinder]

The problem is several small and sometimes big fishes foolishly relied on Frank Sfarzo.
Franks Sfarzo - a jobless blogger - was paid by Gogery Marriott to act as a "source" for Candace Dempsey, and later he became a factual point of reference for Bruce Fisher, IIP people and several non-Italian reporters who had no clue about what was going on in the courtroom.

Could you provide some sort of proof? I think there may well be some truth in it but how do you know?