Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[acbytesla]

And I totally agree but it didn't turn out to be starch.

A perfect example of how you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

"Some samples (A-E-F-H-I) and in particular sample “H”, show granules with a characteristic circular/hexagonal morphology and a radial central structure. A more detailed microscopic study, along with a review of the data present in the literature, allowed it to be determined that the structures in question are attributable to starch granules: therefore material of a vegetable nature."

 

[Bill Williams]

A voice from up in the gallery.

So as for CD "lying" with the intent to mislead, I will let you return to your regular broadcast.

PS: Now maybe I misunderstand everything. Perhaps you are saying, in spite of my lay interpretation to the contrary, that CD intended her statement to mean that the very same sample containing DNA was retested and found to be wrong. Given that it is widely known that the original sample was used up or consumed, I don't know how she could have intended that.

My sentiments exactly. AK's and RS's liberty is on the line, in what amounts to a show trial in Florence, mandated by the highest court in the land, and some people want to vilify a Seattle blogger.

 

[acbytesla]

1 imitation combat knife
What is your source for this one?

What is your source for this one?

I'd like to know what the source is for this. If Raffaele had a combat knife, you would think that they would have collected it and possibly performed DNA analysis on it. But I know that they only performed DNA analysis on 3 knives. 2 of Raffaele's pocket knives and the cooking knife.

 

[davefoc]

...

No one has bashed Machiavelli - unless you call it "bashing" simply to ask him to post the documents he says he's reading to prove that Mignini never had such a theory.

I wouldn't call it bashing, but I thought in the interest of truth, the posters opposing what Machiavelli was saying might have conceded that they were not aware of a direct quote of Mignini where either he used the term, satanic rite, or a quote where Mignini put forth ideas that might have suggested he meant satanic rite using a narrow definition of the term.

 

[Bill Williams]

I wouldn't call it bashing, but I thought in the interest of truth, the posters opposing what Machiavelli was saying might have conceded that they were not aware of a direct quote of Mignini where either he used the term, satanic rite, or a quote where Mignini put forth ideas that might have suggested he meant satanic rite using a narrow definition of the term.

Again, the issue in 2013 is perhaps NOT to provide a direct quote from 2007-8 belonging to Mignini..... I mean, the press, Barbie Nadeau, even John Kercher are all claiming this, too....

The issue is why is this a line in the sand in 2013? If Machiavelli's "opponents" are so wrong, why not just laugh at us?

 

[Grinder]

I wouldn't call it bashing, but I thought in the interest of truth, the posters opposing what Machiavelli was saying might have conceded that they were not aware of a direct quote of Mignini where either he used the term, satanic rite, or a quote where Mignini put forth ideas that might have suggested he meant satanic rite using a narrow definition of the term.

Yes. The early reports had it as consensual sex perhaps with a boy she had met the night before. It quickly changed and the police were attributed with a statement that Meredith was completely innocent and was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. I believe this change occurred in part because Kercher was known to the tab writers.

The stories morphed into the orgy, sex game, satanic and satanic rite theories but I never saw anyone quoted on these characterizations.

I would say that Mach was attacked and bashed - what was the Mach 1 and the Mach 2 stuff and the implication that he and Vogt might be the same person.

Mach may have said he has access to the court transcripts and he maintains only official comments count. Because of that he says he has proof that Mignini never said satanic in those transcripts. I doubt they are in English and even if he provided them there would be no way for BW to know if anything had been redacted.

Bill needs more proof than Barbie and John Kercher said it. Barbie also said she talked with 9 forensic experts and they all said it was mixed blood. So I guess we have to believe that cause Barbie said so.

 

[moije2]

I wouldn't call it bashing, but I thought in the interest of truth, the posters opposing what Machiavelli was saying might have conceded that they were not aware of a direct quote of Mignini where either he used the term, satanic rite, or a quote where Mignini put forth ideas that might have suggested he meant satanic rite using a narrow definition of the term.

I have always wondered about the language used by the various attorneys for example in closing arguments (or the equivalent). My understanding had been that great fiery orations occurred and that Mignini in particular was credited with very forceful and effective speeches. So it would be nice to see him in action on this if that was true. As opposed to the rather sedate image we see in interviews.

I do agree that people should own up to what is known re the satanic references, but in light of the language and translation issues you can't be too narrow in the definitions. A little leeway must be allowed. I know that gives way to lots of argument, but certainly there is an argument to be made that context in usage of rite (riti?), Halloween, manga comics etc.

I don't think there can be any argument that the public perception was colored by the satanic references. Whether Mignini and company framed it is another thing. And as Bill Williams has said (I think?) the prosecutors didn't argue against it and I would say they certainly benefited by it in that it poisoned public opinion. I believe it has been said that the British tabloid coverage was not unique and that the Italian media had these references too. Will stand corrected if need be.

On this note, and as part of my interest in this, Nina Burleigh had given a link to an artist that had put together an art piece of sorts that used all of the nasty slut shaming phrases employed against AK. Not necessarily what happened completely in the court proceedings but certainly what can happen to a young woman in this circumstance. And of course RS is just an after thought just as in some films of a prurient nature... RS could show up to the court proceedings and would in my expectation garner minimal attention compared with the "real" star.

 

[Grinder]

Again, the issue in 2013 is perhaps NOT to provide a direct quote from 2007-8 belonging to Mignini..... I mean, the press, Barbie Nadeau, even John Kercher are all claiming this, too....

The issue is why is this a line in the sand in 2013? If Machiavelli's "opponents" are so wrong, why not just laugh at us?

Bill it's not an issue in 2013 except for you. They are laughing.

A much more important question is where is there evidence of a sex game?

Oh and Bill did I say I hate CD? If I did, that would have been wrong. I don't know her.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill it's not an issue in 2013 except for you. They are laughing.

A much more important question is where is there evidence of a sex game?
Oh and Bill did I say I hate CD? If I did, that would have been wrong. I don't know her.

Exactly. Massei even found none. For Massei the motive was purely and only Rudy's lust. Page 394.

And if they are laughing, that is the most sane thing I have heard from them in a long while. I happen to think you are wrong, but then I've said that.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I'd like to know what the source is for this. If Raffaele had a combat knife, you would think that they would have collected it and possibly performed DNA analysis on it. But I know that they only performed DNA analysis on 3 knives. 2 of Raffaele's pocket knives and the cooking knife.

This triggers a vague memory.

Several years ago, somebody on TJMK (SomeAlibi?) posted an article about a supposed combat knife replica that was mounted as a wall display at Raffaele's apt. They had a photo of it.

I went through the police files, including the video of his apt., and found nothing to corroborate this. Police seem to have collected only two folding pocket knives plus the big kitchen knife from Raffaele's apt.

Finally I saw some media photos and I realized what was going on. During the initial trial, somebody (I can't remember if it was prosecution or defense) brought a generic knife into the courtroom for a demonstration of some sort. That is what was shown in the TJMK photograph.

 

[Mary_H]

Again, the issue in 2013 is perhaps NOT to provide a direct quote from 2007-8 belonging to Mignini..... I mean, the press, Barbie Nadeau, even John Kercher are all claiming this, too....

The issue is why is this a line in the sand in 2013? If Machiavelli's "opponents" are so wrong, why not just laugh at us?

It is true that virtually all the media referred to Mignini talking, in one form or another, about Satanic rites. It is also true that, so far, no one has come up with a specific quote by Mignini himself actually using those words. Mignini wrote to the paper recently to say he didn't want Mario Spezi claiming he talked about Satanic rites. TJMK and other guilters have been denying the Satanic rite connection longer.

It is most accurate to say that it has been reported that Mignini talked about Satanic rites, and then just leave it at that. If Mignini and Machiavelli et al want to fight that, then let them do the legwork.

Even without the Satanic rite connection, the truth is bad enough. Matteini's report tells us why the defendants were suspected -- because of Raffaele's comic books, his blog and his shoes. It also tells us that Meredith was threatened and murdered with Raffaele's knife; that Patrick and Amanda set up a meeting by phone; and that the suspects spread blood everywhere at the cottage.

Machiavelli has given us plenty more to chew on about why they were suspected. A file of Amanda's psychological aberrations was kept. Amanda was sexually attracted to Meredith, and when Meredith did not return Amanda's affections, they killed her. Italy's culture is such that Mignini did not hesitate to assume group sex. Three towels at the scene of the crime tell us three people committed the murder.

So maybe Mignini didn't say Satan. He said a lot worse.

 

[acbytesla]

This triggers a vague memory.

Several years ago, somebody on TJMK (SomeAlibi?) posted an article about a supposed combat knife replica that was mounted as a wall display at Raffaele's apt. They had a photo of it.

I went through the police files, including the video of his apt., and found nothing to corroborate this. Police seem to have collected only two folding pocket knives plus the big kitchen knife from Raffaele's apt.

Finally I saw some media photos and I realized what was going on. During the initial trial, somebody (I can't remember if it was prosecution or defense) brought a generic knife into the courtroom for a demonstration of some sort. That is what was shown in the TJMK photograph.

Of course it had to be something like this. I love how so many things like this weave their way into the conversation.

 

[moije2]

I would say that Mach was attacked and bashed - what was the Mach 1 and the Mach 2 stuff and the implication that he and Vogt might be the same person.

I would agree that Machiavelli has taking some bashing. Some of it not called for. I enjoy his posts because whether I agree with him or not, I am getting information into the mindset and logic use by folks on his side of the aisle. I would think most agree that he is good purveyer of the prosecution view of things. I doubt anybody here thinks they are going to change his mind about this case. I will let him, should he chose, speak for himself on these things.​

Mach may have said he has access to the court transcripts and he maintains only official comments count. Because of that he says he has proof that Mignini never said satanic in those transcripts. I doubt they are in English and even if he provided them there would be no way for BW to know if anything had been redacted.

Transcripts: Machiavelli should share those things. Question: What is the situation regarding court documents and public access in Italy? Can I walk into court and ask to see the file? This can be done in the US, but what is the situation there? Transcripts of court proceedings are a different matter, and are not necessarily in the court file and need to be requested. In Italy how does it work? Even if they were in Italian that would pose little problem for relevant discussion IMO.​

Bill needs more proof than Barbie and John Kercher said it. Barbie also said she talked with 9 forensic experts and they all said it was mixed blood. So I guess we have to believe that cause Barbie said so.

So then we are left also just trusting Machiavelli on the use of satanic or equivalent term. This leaves us in this land of the unknown, just that many people have continued this reference. It is in that light understandable why speculations are made about his use. That is all that can be done without the hard copy direct references.​

I hope that my above comments come through interspersed...

 

[Bill Williams]

It is true that virtually all the media referred to Mignini talking, in one form or another, about Satanic rites. It is also true that, so far, no one has come up with a specific quote by Mignini himself actually using those words. Mignini wrote to the paper recently to say he didn't want Mario Spezi claiming he talked about Satanic rites. TJMK and other guilters have been denying the Satanic rite connection longer.

It is most accurate to say that it has been reported that Mignini talked about Satanic rites, and then just leave it at that. If Mignini and Machiavelli et al want to fight that, then let them do the legwork.

Even without the Satanic rite connection, the truth is bad enough. Matteini's report tells us why the defendants were suspected -- because of Raffaele's comic books, his blog and his shoes. It also tells us that Meredith was threatened and murdered with Raffaele's knife; that Patrick and Amanda set up a meeting by phone; and that the suspects spread blood everywhere at the cottage.

Machiavelli has given us plenty more to chew on about why they were suspected. A file of Amanda's psychological aberrations was kept. Amanda was sexually attracted to Meredith, and when Meredith did not return Amanda's affections, they killed her. Italy's culture is such that Mignini did not hesitate to assume group sex. Three towels at the scene of the crime tell us three people committed the murder.

So maybe Mignini didn't say Satan. He said a lot worse.

Thanks.

And by the time Massei's 2010 motivations report came out, a motivations report proported to demonstrate guilt, Mignini's footprints were nowhere to be seen. All this girl-on-girl lesbian homicide became, "Rudy's lust".

So.... "Satanic Rite" in 2013 is Mignini's fear of some blow back from the Spezi issue. That may be the ONLY way the two issues are connected.

 

[Mary_H]

I have never had any connection to any of the the writer/reporters in any form at any time. Specifically I have never heard of Dempsey before or had any connection.<snip>

However, to any readers that are not aware that many of those criticizing me have had or have contact with Dempsey and the FOA.

Nobody knew each other or had any connections before the case.

Charkie W helped found FOA according to his own post which I totally believe.

That's "Sharky."

<snip>To mischaracterize the key piece of evidence against Amanda, having been told about it specifically years ago is a purposeful act to mislead anyone she could. She feels like part of the PR effort. That's what I don't like.

It seems to me that anyone who writes in support of the case for innocence is part of the so-called PR effort. And no misleading is necessary.

The DNA was never shown to be starch. It has nothing to do with balanced. Lying about facts is never accurate. The DNA on the knife should never have been in because of how it was handled from start to finish, period.

I feel your frustration on this one, Grinder. Of course the knife and the bra clasp should never have been in. Unfortunately, that has not prevented them from being in, nor has the massive discussion of the facts about DNA and lab procedures.

Bottom line, though, didn't Conti and Vecchiotti say they found starch and no DNA?

I didn't try to ferret anything. I asked you to lay it out there for all to see. Don't you think connections should be known? Of course you do because that's been at the heart of your Vogt and Mach posts.

Good point. When I first started to think there might be a connection between Vogt and Machiavelli, I was taken aback, but then I remembered that there are lots of connections in both camps. That's kind of how the game is played.

I think Dempsey is a fraud and of all the writers involved became partisan the earliest and made a beeline to get a book deal to cash in. She continues to promote shamelessly and probably is trying daily to get a movie deal since she claims she wrote it as screenplay.

What makes her a fraud?

And why is it wrong to write a book, promote it and hope to get a movie deal?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Of course it had to be something like this. I love how so many things like this weave their way into the conversation.

I wondered at the time what the source of this might have been. My theory is that Quennell and his wacked-out minions were in contact with the authorities in Perugia, offering their services, and somebody decided to feed them this phony tidbit, realizing they would suck it up.

It wouldn't be incriminating even if it was true. But it's not true as best I can tell. It only shows how desperate team guilter is to protect their mythological constructs.

It's like the idiotic comic book, written for Japanese teenagers, that is Exhibit A-Z in their quest to show that Raffaele had a taste for violent pornography.

 

[Skind]

I'd like to know what the source is for this. If Raffaele had a combat knife, you would think that they would have collected it and possibly performed DNA analysis on it. But I know that they only performed DNA analysis on 3 knives. 2 of Raffaele's pocket knives and the cooking knife.

To my knowledge, it was collected and presented to Knox in court, as Raffaelle supposedly had it on display.

Of course, that could all be bumpf from SomeAlibi. The photo from TMoMK could easily be from a unrelated case. http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Sollecito's_Knives

It's amazing how edgy many pro-guilter get when talking about Sollecito's knives. I've been stabbed twice (agressively - I've been stabbed/stabbed myself accidentaly half a dozen times more) and I don't have as much as a nervous aversion as many of them do.

 

[davefoc]

...

I do agree that people should own up to what is known re the satanic references, but in light of the language and translation issues you can't be too narrow in the definitions. A little leeway must be allowed. I know that gives way to lots of argument, but certainly there is an argument to be made that context in usage of rite (riti?), Halloween, manga comics etc.

...

I agree a bit. When I heard the term used before this discussion I assumed it was used in the broad sense meaning that the murder occurred as some sort of violent occult related activities and not that the participants were engaged in a rite formally associated with Satan worship.

But when Machiavelli started to defend Mignini's letter with regard to the claim he had never used the term, Satanic Rite, I thought it would have been useful with regard to truth seeking to concede that there were no known direct quotes of Mignini using the expression. Further it would have been useful to acknowledge that Mignini never put forth any theories that were consistent with a narrow definition of Satanic Rite.

Machiavelli's also sought to limit Mignini's association with any of the salacious details of the crime that were being reported to only direct quotes of Mignini. He did this in the face of wide spread assumptions at the time that Mignini was behind the salacious theories that were being reported. He also strove to limit interpretations of what Mignini said to non occult interpretations. To me, it seemed like Machiavelli was almost functioning as a defense attorney with these arguments. The only thing admissible was that which could be reliably sourced and that didn't depend on hearsay or assumptions. FWIW, I thought Machiavelli demonstrated significant skills at argument with his approach. It also, appeared to me that intellectual honesty was not his goal. He was putting on the best defense possible for his client and a search for truth was not his goal.

When he was arguing in this mode I thought the most informative responses were those that attacked Machiavelli's arguments and not Machiavelli. I agree with Grinder that there were a lot of posts that related more to the poster's frustration at Machiavelli's approach than that were factually based counter arguments.

 

[Skind]

This triggers a vague memory.

Several years ago, somebody on TJMK (SomeAlibi?) posted an article about a supposed combat knife replica that was mounted as a wall display at Raffaele's apt. They had a photo of it.

I went through the police files, including the video of his apt., and found nothing to corroborate this. Police seem to have collected only two folding pocket knives plus the big kitchen knife from Raffaele's apt.

Finally I saw some media photos and I realized what was going on. During the initial trial, somebody (I can't remember if it was prosecution or defense) brought a generic knife into the courtroom for a demonstration of some sort. That is what was shown in the TJMK photograph.

Ah, I suspected something along those lines. I will revise my understanding accordingly.

Thank you.

 

[Dan O.]

PMF and TJMK have posted what they claim to be pictures of two of his knives. IIP and other PIP sites haven't countered with pictures.

The PGP pictures show knives that are more tactical ones than the old jackknives or pen knives.

If someone has pictures of the models or actual knives please share.

Dan O do you have them on your wiki?

Sorry, no pictures. I don't recall any besides the kitchen knife that came from reliable sources.

From Massei we learn that there were two knives seized from Raffaile's place on the 6th. One was of course the kitchen knife and the other a flick knife. Then there was the flick knife that Raffaele presumably carried with him to the interrogation. The widely reported combat knife was in fact a prop brought in by the defense. If there we're other knives they should have been mentioned in the trial.

2007-11-06 Finzi collected from Raffaele's kitchen drawer the double DNA knife (exibit 36) and from Raffaele's bedroom a knife with a total length of 18 cm and a blade length of 8 cm (Massei [99])
2007-11-12 Today will be examined by forensic of Rome, two knives and shoes seized Raffaele Sollecito (Republica (it))
​