The Power of Prayer.

[JoeMorgue]

You're confusing hopes and aspirations with magic, for some reason, Navigator.

He's not confusing anything.

He's purposly and intentionally conflating two things to try and justify woo.

We've done this dance before a hundred times in this subforum.

 

[Navigator]

Navigator;

Are you positioning 'prayer' practices as psychological feedback systems that implant implicit imperatives into the subconscious which increase the chances of cognitive acquisition?

When I was a little child my mother said I used to love going outside when it was windy and she would watch me playing with the wind.
I would laugh and hold my hands in the air and wave them around as if I was actually playing with the wind, and I would talk excitedly about the wind, and wonder where it was when it wasn’t around.

I cannot consciously remember doing this, but I have a feeling about it which is more part of my Subconscious aspect and this leaks through into my Conscious aspect as specific feeling.

In this it was no doubt my first experience at having an invisible friend and as a very young child I knew no different. I had no way of differentiating something I could feel and interact with which moved as if alive – with living things which did the same, but were visible and I most likely had some kind of communion with the wind which was different with ordinary interactions.
I did not know that the wind was not alive.

The concept of prayer came later and had to do with learning to understand that there was an invisible thing which you could talk to and ask things like ‘blessing the food’ and ‘thanking for the nice day and for providing parents and loved ones.’

Later this incorporated someone in front of a congregation who said ‘let us pray’ and then went ahead and prayed on behalf of the congregation.

Then there was the break from these methodologies as adolescence and disappointment and the usual things one goes through leading up to, through and beyond puberty.

It is not that the impulse to pray fell by the way, but that it subtly changed until it was no longer recognized as 'praying’ because there was no ‘invisible friend’ anymore. Like Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny and other such things, these were shown to be handed down concepts which amounted to nothing much more than deceptions designed to bring the Child out of its little make believe world and into the hard certainty of the real would which had nothing to do with Childish belief systems.

But there was more to come...

 

[Navigator]

You're confusing hopes and aspirations with magic, for some reason, Navigator.

Someone hoping that getting the right qualifications will help them to get a job that they want is not doing the same thing as someone praying that they'll get that job.

Dissolution - I can hear what you are saying here, but I don't believe in magic, as a real thing which actually happens. I see magic as that which magicians do and have trouble associating what they do with hopes and aspirations, which I find quite easily associated with prayer, even be that there is no actual god concept which is being called upon to help make those hopes and aspirations come to fruition.

The process is still pretty much the same in regards to hope and aspirations even that there is personal responsibility involved, which often is ignored by the critics who understand prayer as being some wooish rubbish like 'growing legs back' and such.

Even your example relating to work - not even necessarily work which demands qualifications - there are those who do indeed pray to a god concept in relation to 'doing their studies' or finding a job they will enjoy and having this confirmed in their unfolding experience.

It would be nigh impossible to convince these that they had no assistance or that it was simply coincidence, especially when it happens frequently.

Although my own studies on what is occurring have changed the way I see and use prayer, these were learned in part from my first believing that some outside god had something to do with it, and it is the same for how Human Consciousness has also evolved in its continuing search for self identity and purpose.

One example related to getting work which happened over 30 years ago involved moving to a town where unemployment was at the nations highest in that town.
Previously I had worked very hard for a year on a Sheep Station and decided I would have 3 weeks break before going out and looking for a job.

My cousin had been unemployed for many months and I was told I shouldn't have moved to this town because there just weren't any jobs.
I was mostly through my adolescence stage but had already reverted back to praying to a god concept and getting results, and I was happy enough to tell those who were concerned that 'god would provide me with a job.'

The first day out looking, at the very first place I went into ask for work, I was asked how soon I could start and said I could start the very next day and was told to turn up, which I did and there you go.

Some did not react kindly to me getting a job because I gave credit to my god concept for having helped provide it.

Nonetheless, that is what happened, and if this were just a one off incident and such things did not present themselves in relation to my life experience on a regular basis, I could easily be persuaded to believe it was simply coincidence.

The only thing which has significantly changed for me since then in regard to this process is that I no longer think I am praying to any god and I don't necessarily recognize only 1 type of method (say - speaking aloud) as being the only way this interaction is achieved.

 

[Dissolution]

All you are doing is providing anecdotal evidence that prayer has worked for you and claiming that others with similar evidence would also continue to believe, despite any evidence to the contrary, Navigator.
I'm not sure what use that information is supposed to have for anyone.

The actual scientific evidence, which you don't want to address, suggests that you're wrong and probably falling prey to confirmation bias and/or wishful thinking.

 

[JaysonR]

I think that most folks in the thread are perhaps looking in the wrong direction regarding this subject.

The concept in play is whether prayer has any affect upon consciousness.
We can actually state that it does impact our brain neurologically at this point, thanks to the hard work of Dr. Andrew Newberg; a neuroscientist who analyzes the brains of people during spiritual experiences such as prayer and meditation.

His findings, over the past decade or so, continue to show that prayer changes the neurological paths and processing of the individual.

Here's his wiki page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_B._Newberg

Here's his publication page:
http://www.andrewnewberg.com/pub.asp


Regarding the context of prayer:
"The more you focus on something — whether that's math or auto racing or football or God — the more that becomes your reality, the more it becomes written into the neural connections of your brain,"

"You can sculpt your brain just as you'd sculpt your muscles if you went to the gym. Our brains are continuously being sculpted, whether you like it or not, wittingly or unwittingly."


Essentially, what he asserts from his findings is that prayer or meditation, even done mildly, alter neurological routing and change the way an individual perceives reality; especially socially.

For instance, in many types of extreme prayer and meditation formats where individuals focus on praying for others or being one with their god, or - in the meditative form - meditating on the 'eternal now' or 'universal oneness of no-self' (things of this nature), the parietal lobe goes completely dark; it just shuts off.

That's really interesting, because the parietal lobe is a primary area of the brain that is related to sensory information and helps us form our sense of self; as separate from any other given thing or identity.

Essentially, in these types of prayers and meditations, the practitioners are forcing their brain to shut off the portion that governs divisional self identity by shear force of focused will.


So we may state that it's only wishful thinking and confirmation bias, but that misses the actual analytical portion of what's going on and instead focuses on arguing about whether or not some supernatural force is real or not.

It doesn't matter if there are supernatural forces or not; what does matter is that we can quantify and state that prayer and meditation do have "power" in that they can radically reshape how we think - both subconsciously and consciously.

 

[Dissolution]

So a more concise summary would be "Focusing on things is effective"?

 

[JoeMorgue]

So a more concise summary would be "Focusing on things is effective"?

"Obvious truism reworded to shoehorn it into a religious concept, therefore God!"

There I just saved everyone the trouble of reading about half the posts in this subforum.

 

[Navigator]

All you are doing is providing anecdotal evidence that prayer has worked for you and claiming that others with similar evidence would also continue to believe, despite any evidence to the contrary, Navigator.
I'm not sure what use that information is supposed to have for anyone.

The actual scientific evidence, which you don't want to address, suggests that you're wrong and probably falling prey to confirmation bias and/or wishful thinking.

I can appreciate your point of view on what might be occurring Dissolution but you are using words such as "I am falling prey to" and "I am wrong" even based upon only one or two anecdotes I have shared, without understanding the sheer number of similar interactions which altogether make up my understanding in relation to my lief experience and spanning a large percentage of the years of that experience.

In regard to the study you mention, I did give a small opinion on what that was about - in another post - but it could easily have been missed.

The study itself is only concerned with a certain well define type of prayer which sits within a certain type of belief structure and which I find quite misleading because of that in the same way that I find it misleading for individuals to claim that I should be able to pray for a persons leg to grow back and it should.

It doesn't work that way in reality. That is the wooish version of it and should be considered mis-information rather than serious "this is what prayer is." in order that others might say "now let us prove scientifically that it is useless."

To get a better idea of the processes involved requires a broader definition of exactly what prayer is and a broader scientific study therein.

The same can be said in relation to say, the ideomotor effect, which has its focus primarily on 'Ouija' and the wooism associated with that.
P&T do a 'scientific' exercise on that, but it cannot be considered truly scientific and the 'results' were quite bias due to the focus on the woo.

The point being is that to simply focus on the woo aspect regarding the use of such things as prayer and ideomotor effects and thus somehow 'prove scientifically' that these things are bogus, is not really the way science is best used - it is kind of sleight of hand, picks its specimens from the ranks of the woo and proves not that the effects of the process are themselves delusional but that there are delusional individuals who use those effects to remain fixated in their delusions.

This video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykvd__Wv9po

Does not expose the falseness of the ideomotor effect but rather the falseness of people. It does not suggest that the participants are being mislead by their understandings about what is going on, but that the ideomotor effect itself is false and useless as something to study more indepth, because IT ( ideomotor effect) is hocus pocus.

People though, mistake this kind of thing for real science, rather than simple misleading entertainment.

 

[JaysonR]

To be clear, I'm not claiming "therefore god", or therefore any supernatural claim (I don't think Navigator is either, but perhaps I'm wrong?).

And yes, in a sense, focusing on things is effective.
However, it is not merely focusing, as both of these families of practices equally involve a deep amount of technique in their functional application.

These practices involve attaching to a concept of some kind which guides the focus overall.
This means to gain the same way, you have to emotionally connect to whatever concept it is that you are using, and then use that to evoke the focus mixing with a variety of different approaches (different meditation methods, prayer methods, etc...)

These methods can be used in secular function, and are now being implemented as such in some places.

Even meditating for a few minutes a day over a few weeks increases an individual's capacity for focus outside of the practices.

For the extreme levels where individuals practice for multiple hours per day for years, we can show neurological divergences between their brains and someone who does not practice in such a way.

Part of what evokes the focus is the reverence the practitioners give to the concepts they are interacting with when praying or meditating.

To be clear as to what I mean by all of this:
Examination of people's brains who are atheist, who just come in and pray and meditate for the study, do not show the same neurological divergences in their brain function; even over time.

By that, it indicates that you can't just meditate and pray empty of some devotional focal point in concept because we aren't stupid; we can determine if we are being sincere or not within our brain and that changes the neurological motive.

This is why I was stating that you have to have some reverent conceptual imperative to evoke the focal point through; be that humanism, the cosmos, the dichotomic methods of Plato, some god, or whatever is actually deeply of value for you and something you firmly believe can give you controlling power.

You can't pretend; you have to actually be convinced to generate the larger net augmentations.

However, mild net gains are still possible without the conviction.

Or, as Dr. Newberg puts it, referring to the perception of the reality of supernatural spiritual experiences by adherents:
"...it [the results of the studies over the years] helps us to understand that at least when they [religious people] are describing it to us, they are really having this kind of experience... This experience is at least neurologically real."

 

[zeggman]

For instance, in many types of extreme prayer and meditation formats where individuals focus on praying for others or being one with their god, or - in the meditative form - meditating on the 'eternal now' or 'universal oneness of no-self' (things of this nature), the parietal lobe goes completely dark; it just shuts off.

That's really interesting, because the parietal lobe is a primary area of the brain that is related to sensory information and helps us form our sense of self; as separate from any other given thing or identity.

Essentially, in these types of prayers and meditations, the practitioners are forcing their brain to shut off the portion that governs divisional self identity by shear force of focused will.

"Turn off your mind, relax, and float downstream
It is not dying
It is not dying
Lay down all thought, surrender to the void
It is shining
It is shining"

So when you pray intently, your brain is no longer firing on all cylinders.

Seems plausible.

"Look Ma, I'm sculpting my brain."

I'm reminded of the old joke about how to sculpt a statue of an elephant. Just start with a block of rock, and chip away everything that doesn't look like an elephant.

If you start with a functioning brain, and chip away everything that looks like critical thinking, I guess you get something that extols the virtues of "the power of prayer".

 

[tsig]

I think that most folks in the thread are perhaps looking in the wrong direction regarding this subject.

The concept in play is whether prayer has any affect upon consciousness.
We can actually state that it does impact our brain neurologically at this point, thanks to the hard work of Dr. Andrew Newberg; a neuroscientist who analyzes the brains of people during spiritual experiences such as prayer and meditation.

His findings, over the past decade or so, continue to show that prayer changes the neurological paths and processing of the individual.

Here's his wiki page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_B._Newberg

Here's his publication page:
http://www.andrewnewberg.com/pub.asp


Regarding the context of prayer:
"The more you focus on something — whether that's math or auto racing or football or God — the more that becomes your reality, the more it becomes written into the neural connections of your brain,"

"You can sculpt your brain just as you'd sculpt your muscles if you went to the gym. Our brains are continuously being sculpted, whether you like it or not, wittingly or unwittingly."


Essentially, what he asserts from his findings is that prayer or meditation, even done mildly, alter neurological routing and change the way an individual perceives reality; especially socially.

For instance, in many types of extreme prayer and meditation formats where individuals focus on praying for others or being one with their god, or - in the meditative form - meditating on the 'eternal now' or 'universal oneness of no-self' (things of this nature), the parietal lobe goes completely dark; it just shuts off.

That's really interesting, because the parietal lobe is a primary area of the brain that is related to sensory information and helps us form our sense of self; as separate from any other given thing or identity.

Essentially, in these types of prayers and meditations, the practitioners are forcing their brain to shut off the portion that governs divisional self identity by shear force of focused will.


So we may state that it's only wishful thinking and confirmation bias, but that misses the actual analytical portion of what's going on and instead focuses on arguing about whether or not some supernatural force is real or not.

It doesn't matter if there are supernatural forces or not; what does matter is that we can quantify and state that prayer and meditation do have "power" in that they can radically reshape how we think - both subconsciously and consciously.

I can shut off parts of my brain by drinking lots of alcohol. Is that prayer?

 

[Navigator]

So a more concise summary would be "Focusing on things is effective"?

The interaction between individual Consciousness and what is most commonly referred to as 'subconscious' is how I have come to understand it so far and the focus has to do with learning to understand that interrelationship - how it works and what the individual can do in relationship to it that it can be effective...something of an enhancement to the individual if permitted to be.

Ordinarily ignored, or thought of as something that cannot really be understood by the Conscious awareness.
I get the impression it is something which is acknowledged as somehow part of the mind, but not an essential part of the individuals overall self - as if it has no function or relevance to 'the real world'.

A mysterious thing.

 

[JaysonR]

"Turn off your mind, relax, and float downstream
It is not dying
It is not dying
Lay down all thought, surrender to the void
It is shining
It is shining"

So when you pray intently, your brain is no longer firing on all cylinders.

Seems plausible.

"Look Ma, I'm sculpting my brain."

I'm reminded of the old joke about how to sculpt a statue of an elephant. Just start with a block of rock, and chip away everything that doesn't look like an elephant.

If you start with a functioning brain, and chip away everything that looks like critical thinking, I guess you get something that extols the virtues of "the power of prayer".

No, as much fun as this is to write (I assume), that's not really the entirety of the neurological findings.

Only one specific method of prayer/meditation shuts off the parietal lobe; not all forms.

I used that example to show how powerful of an effect these practices can have on a brain.

The practices don't make someone ignorant or stupid inherently.

Many of the other forms of these same practices increase the frontal lobe activity beyond normal ranges; rather than retard processing.

 

[JaysonR]

I can shut off parts of my brain by drinking lots of alcohol. Is that prayer?

No.

Only one specific form of prayer/meditation accomplishes parietal lobe shut down temporarily and therefore causes the individual to reduce their sensation of separate identity from other people or things.

Drinking, on the other hand, affects the brain through chemical inhibition that slowly damages the brain over time.

This is rather different than altering our neurological paths through educational, mental, or emotional/spiritual exercises.

It may be fun to belittle people who believe in false ideas, but it's another thing to belittle the science of studying what's going on in their brains as a result of their behavior surrounding their practices.

The latter can be examined and studied to learn how the human brain works, and how we can use it to our advantages as we wish.
The former is simply beliefs that have no real bearing on anything other than the conviction of the adherent.

 

[zeggman]

Only one specific method of prayer/meditation shuts off the parietal lobe; not all forms.

Many of the other forms of these same practices increase the frontal lobe activity beyond normal ranges; rather than retard processing.

Would those other forms be considered "praying"? If so, what would these prayers typically consist of?

It may be fun to belittle people who believe in false ideas, but it's another thing to belittle the science of studying what's going on in their brains as a result of their behavior surrounding their practices.

I didn't see anyone belittling the science of studying brains.

The latter can be examined and studied to learn how the human brain works, and how we can use it to our advantages as we wish.
The former is simply beliefs that have no real bearing on anything other than the conviction of the adherent.

We could scientifically study the brains of those who practice voodoo, doing functional MRIs of people sticking pins into effigies and FMRIs of people whose effigies are being pierced. This study would tell us something about the changes in brain state when people practice voodoo. It would not validate "the power of voodoo" as anything other than something that happens in the minds of people who have lost touch with reality (and not in a good way).

I say "not in a good way" because being transported by a symphony or some other artistic expression is also losing touch with reality (in a good way), as is creating such expressions. I don't regard prayer and voodoo as artistic expressions; you may feel differently.

 

[JaysonR]

Would those other forms be considered "praying"? If so, what would these prayers typically consist of?

There's a wide range of practices.
Depending on which study, different prayers and meditations were tested.

If you go to that page of publications I cited before, they state which practice per each study.

I didn't see anyone belittling the science of studying brains.

I perceived the comment differently.

We could scientifically study the brains of those who practice voodoo, doing functional MRIs of people sticking pins into effigies and FMRIs of people whose effigies are being pierced. This study would tell us something about the changes in brain state when people practice voodoo. It would not validate "the power of voodoo" as anything other than something that happens in the minds of people who have lost touch with reality (and not in a good way).

I say "not in a good way" because being transported by a symphony or some other artistic expression is also losing touch with reality (in a good way), as is creating such expressions. I don't regard prayer and voodoo as artistic expressions; you may feel differently.

This appears to be a rushed conclusion to assume that prayers and meditations are "not in a good way".

This would be a conclusion that should reside in the study and not just our personal opinions of whether or not we like religious ideas or not.

For example, A Preliminary Study of the Acute Effects of Religious Ritual on Anxiety in 2007 found the following results:
"A significant reduction in anxiety was observed in subjects reciting the Rosary compared to the group of subjects watching the video."

The video was a religious video.

The same study found the following conclusion:
"These preliminary results suggest that ritual itself may be a significant contributor to the effects of religious practices on psychologic well-being."

There was also a more detailed study in 2011 titled Effects of an 8-Week Meditation Program on Mood
and Anxiety in Patients with Memory Loss.
The conclusions of this study were the following:

"In this study, several neuropsychologic and neurophysiologic changes were observed, and the results suggest that the intervention may be useful for some of the mood and quality-oflife issues that often are associated with cognitive decline. These observations are consistent with a growing literature base of other meditation practices such as mindfulness meditation, which has been shown to reduce anxiety, depression, and psychologic distress in a variety of populations including those with chronic medical conditions.
Likewise, a pilot study of mantra meditation with veterans found that a 5-week program significantly reduced symptoms of stress and anxiety and improved feelings of spirituality and well-being. Mantra meditation is similar to KK practice in that it involves the repetition of certain words or phrases either out loud or silently.
Neuroimaging studies have started to illustrate the neurobiologic correlates of meditation, highlighting brain regions that regulate attention control and affect. While studies utilizing positron emission tomography, SPECT, and functional MRI (fMRI) have all demonstrated specific changes in cortical and subcortical structures when subjects were actively meditating, the evidence suggests that different meditation practices lead to different
neuropsychologic outcomes."

As such, the studies do not inherently support a conclusion that religious rituals and practices are negative variations of non-religious lateral comparisons.


Also, none of these studies examine the external "power" of any such practices (e.g. whether or not prayer for another heals that other person being prayed for), nor do these studies assume that such is in merit for examination.

These are neurological studies regarding these human behaviors' affects the brain.

In that context, the "power" of these rituals and practices are rather potent; and not in some negative manner that can be considered damaging to the individual's psychological welfare or neurology.


Now, I asked Navigator:
"Are you positioning 'prayer' practices as psychological feedback systems that implant implicit imperatives into the subconscious which increase the chances of cognitive acquisition?"

His answer was essentially in the affirmative.

Which means, he's referring to the power these practices have upon consciousness, and this means we can look at the neurological studies to determine the answer of the "power" of prayer/meditation because what is being asserted is that such practices affect the brain of the individual which alters their perception; which would be altered through neurological means.

This assertion [that prayer, "works – even be that it is a subjective realisation"] is so far supported by neurological studies.

 

[zeggman]

There's a wide range of practices.
Depending on which study, different prayers and meditations were tested.

If you go to that page of publications I cited before, they state which practice per each study.

Which of the practices "increase the frontal lobe activity beyond normal ranges" and which publications on the page of publications discuss that claim?

 

[JaysonR]

Regional Brain Activation During Meditation Shows Time and Practice Effects: An Exploratory FMRI Study as well as Cerebral blood flow changes associated with different meditation practices and perceived depth of meditation focus on this effect, though it should be noted that according to Dr. Newberg, this effect of general increased activity in the frontal lobe is typical of generally any prayer or meditative practices by adherents due to the increased level of focus involved in the ritual.

Pretty much, any of the studies that use an fMRI will address regions of the brain in some context since it's neuroscience.


An example:

3.2. CBF responses during meditation tasks
Compared with the control, the first meditation task elicited
significantly increased CBF in the medial prefrontal cortex (MPFC) and
left caudate (LCau), while decreased CBF was observed in the left
superior occipital and inferior parietal cortex, as well as in the right
inferior occipital cortex (RIOC) (see Fig. 2A). The MNI coordinates and
Z scores of detected clusters are listed in Table 1. The second
meditation task, relative to the control condition, induced profound
CBF activation in several limbic and paralimbic structures, including
the left insula/amygdala/hippocampus (LIn/Amyg/Hip), right insula
(RIn), left hippocampus and parahippocampus (LHip/PHip), right
parahippocampus (RPHip), and left superior temporal cortex. CBF
reduction was observed in the left occipital/angular gyrus/superior
parietal cortex (LO/AG/SPC), right middle occipital cortex, and left pre
and post-central gyrus (LPCG) (see Fig. 2B). The above results suggest
that the two meditation tasks primarily activated forebrain areas (e.g.
MPFC and caudate) and deeper limbic/paralimbic structures (e.g.,
hippocampus, insula and amygdala), respectively.

 

[zeggman]

For example, A Preliminary Study of the Acute Effects of Religious Ritual on Anxiety in 2007 found the following results:
"A significant reduction in anxiety was observed in subjects reciting the Rosary compared to the group of subjects watching the video."

The video was a religious video.

I'm sure "a significant reduction in anxiety" could be observed in subjects reciting the lyrics to "Row, Row, Row your boat", or pounding plastic moles with a plastic mallet, or playing the kazoo.

The same study found the following conclusion:
"These preliminary results suggest that ritual itself may be a significant contributor to the effects of religious practices on psychologic well-being."

I would expect the "ritual" aspect may be so significant that the "religious" aspect could be jettisoned without any negative consequences.

As such, the studies do not inherently support a conclusion that religious rituals and practices are negative variations of non-religious lateral comparisons.

Sounds like they don't support a conclusion that they're positive variations either, which would seem to corroborate my expectation that the "religious" aspect is superfluous.

In that context, the "power" of these rituals and practices are rather potent; and not in some negative manner that can be considered damaging to the individual's psychological welfare or neurology.

The damaging aspect is the adoption of false explanations where true explanations are available. Carrying around an internal representation of reality which varies significantly from the external reality in which one must daily make one's way is likely to lead to trouble sooner or later.

An athlete whose rituals involve wearing his lucky socks for every game will operate with the same confirmation bias and selective memory as your hypothetical prayer practitioner. Such magical thinking is likely to have negative outcomes eventually.

This assertion [that prayer, "works – even be that it is a subjective realisation"] is so far supported by neurological studies.

Lucky Socks work too.

 

[zeggman]

Regional Brain Activation During Meditation Shows Time and Practice Effects: An Exploratory FMRI Study as well as Cerebral blood flow changes associated with different meditation practices and perceived depth of meditation focus on this effect, though it should be noted that according to Dr. Newberg, this effect of general increased activity in the frontal lobe is typical of generally any prayer or meditative practices by adherents due to the increased level of focus involved in the ritual.

I wouldn't consider breath awareness meditation to be prayer.

Was there something in that article that suggested to you that this was testing brain changes which resulted from prayer?

Your second paper says that focused attention on a mathematical problem will lead to increased blood flow to the prefrontal cortex.

"Thinking about stuff makes blood flow to different areas of the brain. We can see it." How is this an endorsement of prayer?