The Power of Prayer.

[Navigator]

Trying to justify prayer...

There is no need for me to justify Prayer.

 

[JoeMorgue]

There is no need for me to justify Prayer.

Errr if you say so. But that's not really how a discussion works.

I mean I have this idea where you tell me why you think certain things and I tell why I think certain things and we compare and contrast our various ways of looking at how the universe works and we learn and we grow intellectually and we get closer to the truth. I swear it's gonna catch on one of these days.

 

[tsig]

That is it in a nut shell.

Same as:
The wooists will never convince the whop-de-doists
The whop-de-doists will never convince the wooists
....Republican - Democratic...Russians - Americans etc...etc...

...all memes engaged in significantly non appropriate use of intelligence...fortunately there is the path between extremes which is somewhat more sensible because it is not clouded by the labels and bias to which these oppositions are associated with and adhere to...and that which walks such a path is more able to focus on the real concerns of Human Consciousness to which I have and will continue to point to as a good thing to focus upon.
While the 'sides' battle it out, the world turns. Those engaged in the battle are missing the signs of peace.

You keep using that word but I don't think it means what you think it means.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

There is no need for me to justify Prayer.

No just provide any evidence at all it works.

 

[tsig]

No just provide any evidence at all it works.

Cue another three paragraphs of evidence free assertions.

Navigator, you're driving down the road and you have a flat, you have a spare, a jack and everything you need. Do you 1.) start changing the tire or 2.) pray that the flat fixes itself?

 

[Arcade22]

Or:
Explain that Prayer is inspired by 'magical' thinking and self helpful as a tool for personal growth and development of nurturing qualities in relation to personal life experience, purpose and of the wonder of Human Consciousness and its tiny little place in the Galaxy and the supportive qualities which arise from such 'magical' thinking - and while there may well be other tools which can do the job with equal intensity and secure the same results, to argue any one of them to be better than the rest is to argue which 'brand' of tool to use, which is a manufacturers prerogative when trying to sell the tool, but has no real bearing on actually getting the same job done.

So no. You have no evidence at all. Nothing.

Thank you.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Navigator, you're driving down the road and you have a flat, you have a spare, a jack and everything you need. Do you 1.) start changing the tire or 2.) pray that the flat fixes itself?

1. Pray for the flat tire to get fixed.
2. Get out the spare and jack and change the tire yourself.
3. Go "See! Prayer works!"

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Mark.
By ‘it’ I can presume you mean “Prayer?
As a system, prayer works something like:

Prayer in relation to the individual is itself a ‘personal request’ which involves the manipulation of events outside of ones own ability to effect in a way which ‘makes it happen’.

This does not signify that the person is not necessarily a part of that ‘make it happen’ process but that there are aspects involved which are outside of their ability to effect yet are necessary in order for the event to happen.



Personal prayers - :
Furthermore, my personal understanding is this:

I have never been disappointed at the results although I can also say that the prayer may not have been answered in any specific way that I may have personally visualised, it does nonetheless show itself to be connected to my request and always shows itself to be a better – more well adjusted and useful – unfolding than any I may have imagined.

This is to say, while I can identify an answered prayer, it does not always manifest in the way I thought it might. The underlying power of this though, is that it allows opportunity for the individual to think/ponder/focus/wonder about how the answer manifested in relation to quite a number of things to do with the individuals’ growth, maturity, sense of self identity and purpose, and with this the opportunity to adjust behaviour accordingly as necessary.



I can only speculate on ‘what’ that is.
For now I will say, I speculate that what answers them might be exactly that which prompts them to be asked in the first instance.

I apologise if my questions were ambiguous, or my intent not clear but you have spectacularly failed to answer them.

I wanted to know what sort of prayers work. Like, if I lose my keys and pray to find them, will that work?

If I pray for a pay rise at work, will that work?

If I pray for my mother to recover from cancer, will that work?

If I pray for World Peace, will that work?


If you think any, most or all of those would be things that can be achieved through prayer, how do you think they would be answered?


How do you think that your version of prayer, without a concious deity or being to pray to and effectively boils down to clap your hands if you believe works?

Considering the vastness of the universe what in it do you think responds to these prayers?

 

[Aepervius]

I cetrainly prayed for the shround authenticity thread to end ---- to no avail in one year.

 

[Dissolution]

There is no need for me to justify Prayer.

Yes, there is.
You've repeatedly made claims about prayer working, despite being given plenty of evidence that it doesn't.

Just because people think it works, that doesn't actually mean that it does.

 

[Navigator]

You keep using that word but I don't think it means what you think it means.

I think the same about when you are using the word prayer.

It does not mean what you think it means.

Not just you of course...there are a few showing in their expressions that they believe prayer means only one thing.

Post 114 for example

 

[Navigator]

One such example is right here:

Cue another three paragraphs of evidence free assertions.

Navigator, you're driving down the road and you have a flat, you have a spare, a jack and everything you need. Do you 1.) start changing the tire or 2.) pray that the flat fixes itself?

Are you serious?

(yes you are)

I call up the man and he comes and fixes it.

 

[Navigator]

So no. You have no evidence at all. Nothing.

Thank you.

Evidence for what?

 

[Mister Earl]

If prayer actually worked, the population of the world would jump up by about a fifth overnight. Barren women would suddenly have children, and every teenaged boy would suddenly be living with a playboy model.

 

[Navigator]

1: If I lose my keys and pray to find them, will that work?

2: If I pray for a pay rise at work, will that work?

3: If I pray for my mother to recover from cancer, will that work?

4: If I pray for World Peace, will that work?

5: How do you think that your version of prayer, without a conscious deity or being to pray to and effectively boils down to clap your hands if you believe works?

6: Considering the vastness of the universe what in it do you think responds to these prayers?

1: You could try. It might work.
When I misplace something, (like keys) I understand that I will have the information as to where they are and have a specific method which usually works and which is part of the Praying process. I most often quickly find the missing item.

2: You could try. I would incorporate it in with other things related.

3: I doubt it.

4: I doubt it.

5: I have my speculations on how it works. It is a bit like my computer though - I don't know the ins and outs of how it actually works, but I am glad that it does.


6: A mindful thing.

 

[Navigator]

Yes, there is.
You've repeatedly made claims about prayer working, despite being given plenty of evidence that it doesn't.

Again - I do not have to justify that prayer works for me.

I have been given NO evidence that it doesn't.

 

[Navigator]

I had an interesting weekend and thought more on the subject of prayer and think it is another thing which – while coming from religion, like ‘spirituality’ it doesn’t belong to any religious Meme.

And like spirituality, prayer is not so easily ‘pigeon-holed’

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9352023&postcount=53

The conversation went something like this:

Me: I’m on this skeptic forum. I started this thread topic called ‘the power of prayer’.

He: The power of prayer?

Me: Yes. Have you ever prayed?

He: What – you mean like to a deity?

Me: Yes – but not necessarily. Just doing something you might think of as praying.

He: Well yes.

Drummer: Yes me too. Quiet a lot. I still do.

The conversation carried on and I was quiet surprised that they were happy to talk about something which ordinarily is associated with religious practices and involved deities and from that discussion it was pretty obvious that prayer can be considered as something one ‘puts out’ there and certain things happen to which the individual can identify with the prayer which was thought about.

Later on I asked the base player what he thought of the idea of praying for his leg to grow back as this had been mentioned on the forum.

He laughed.
I said that the way some people think about prayer is that you should be able to ask for these really ridiculous things and if prayer really worked then these ridiculous things should happen, like legs growing back.

He said he didn’t think prayer worked like that.

 

[Pup]

Later on I asked the base player what he thought of the idea of praying for his leg to grow back as this had been mentioned on the forum.

He laughed.
I said that the way some people think about prayer is that you should be able to ask for these really ridiculous things and if prayer really worked then these ridiculous things should happen, like legs growing back.

He said he didn’t think prayer worked like that.

That seems pretty typical. For prayer to be enticing as a concept, it has to offer something that other avenues don't, which is usually the promise of a solution for a problem when the outcome is otherwise uncertain. But for it to survive as a concept, there has to be a simple and believable excuse for when it doesn't work, so people can keep believing and therefore derive the comfort from the promise.

An obvious example of an excuse that allows a person to keep believing in the efficacy or prayer is the common religious quip: "God answers all prayers. Sometimes the answer is no." Or less snappy, "Not my will but thine be done."

 

[Navigator]

That seems pretty typical. For prayer to be enticing as a concept, it has to offer something that other avenues don't, which is usually the promise of a solution for a problem when the outcome is otherwise uncertain. But for it to survive as a concept, there has to be a simple and believable excuse for when it doesn't work, so people can keep believing and therefore derive the comfort from the promise.

An obvious example of an excuse that allows a person to keep believing in the efficacy or prayer is the common religious quip: "God answers all prayers. Sometimes the answer is no." Or less snappy, "Not my will but thine be done."

The general idea I am getting is that different people have different ideas about what prayer (and spirituality) are about and how they should work.

 

[Mister Earl]

Again - I do not have to justify that prayer works for me.

I have been given NO evidence that it doesn't.

Confirmation bias. You remember all the time the magic happens, and don't remember all the times it doesn't. If there is a god, and he's got this perfect plan, what sense does it for that god to become your servant, willing to change the universe to fit YOUR particular whims any time you feel like it?

"To heck with the plan. I've got another old lady praying for a Mercedes Benz."

#EDIT: Just to be fair, there's exactly the same amount of evidence that praying to Zeus, or Thor, or Shiva, or a plate full of brussel sprouts "doesn't work" in that context.