Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[TheL8Elvis]

You mean besides the victim?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/16/george-zimmerman_n_1676729.html

Now, where's the evidence that Trayvon Martin was a burglar? Any accusers? Any physical evidence?

Did you miss this?

No, I missed the part where unproven allegations from an anonymous person magically morphed into "evidence."

Again, I invite you to explain why there never were and still are not any charges filed for this egregious act, if so much "evidence" exists.

 

[Unabogie]

No, I missed the part where unproven allegations from an anonymous person magically morphed into "evidence."

Again, I invite you to explain why there never were and still are not any charges filed for this egregious act, if so much "evidence" exists.

You think the police don't know her name? It's in their files. So it's only anonymous to the public.

But certainly a named witness who claims she was assaulted by George over a DECADE counts as evidence?

I don't know why it wasn't charged. Do you?

Still, compared to a school record in which no one was charged and no one alleges any criminality? No charges there either. Another double standard from you? No charges means no crimes, except here they don't?

Especially since Trayvon can't defend himself, him being murdered and all.

 

[Mumbles]

No, I missed the part where unproven allegations from an anonymous person magically morphed into "evidence."

Again, I invite you to explain why there never were and still are not any charges filed for this egregious act, if so much "evidence" exists.

The accuser is not actually anonymous, you know - the state has withheld her name from the public, but her identity is known to them. This is actually fairly common in sexual assault cases, as you likely know already.

And in any event, the point being made is pretty obvious. Regardless of how anyone "feels" about it, the claim that Martin was looking for houses to rob at the time Zimmerman saw him is entirely without evidence, and based solely on Zimmerman's claim that Martin was looking around him as he walked home and talked on the phone - an entirely unremarkable claim, since looking around is a very common activity when walking, and often recommended in order to ensure you don't walk into a hole, in front of a car, and so forth.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You think the police don't know her name? It's in their files. So it's only anonymous to the public.

And not even, since we all know it's his cousin.

But certainly a named witness who claims she was assaulted by George over a DECADE counts as evidence?

Sure, it counts as evidence as much as GZ claims of what happened with TM.

I don't know why it wasn't charged. Do you?

Nope, but I will guess lack of evidence that it actually happened. What other reason would there be ?

Still, compared to a school record in which no one was charged and no one alleges any criminality? No charges there either. Another double standard from you? No charges means no crimes, except here they don't?

Especially since Trayvon can't defend himself, him being murdered and all.

How are you privy to TM school or criminal (if any) records ? How can you claim there are no charges, or even convictions ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The accuser is not actually anonymous, you know - the state has withheld her name from the public, but her identity is known to them. This is actually fairly common in sexual assault cases, as you likely know already.

And in any event, the point being made is pretty obvious. Regardless of how anyone "feels" about it, the claim that Martin was looking for houses to rob at the time Zimmerman saw him is entirely without evidence, and based solely on Zimmerman's claim that Martin was looking around him as he walked home and talked on the phone - an entirely unremarkable claim, since looking around is a very common activity when walking, and often recommended in order to ensure you don't walk into a hole, in front of a car, and so forth.

Just in case you missed it.

I didn't think it was worth denouncing.

No, I don't think he was burglarizing the neighborhood. There is nothing even remotely indicating that he was.

 

[johnny karate]

No, I missed the part where unproven allegations from an anonymous person magically morphed into "evidence."

Sure, it counts as evidence as much as GZ claims of what happened with TM.

Kind of answered your own question there, didn't you?

How are you privy to TM school or criminal (if any) records ? How can you claim there are no charges, or even convictions ?

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html

Trayvon was not disciplined because of the discovery, but was instead suspended for graffiti, according to the report. School police impounded the jewelry and sent photos of the items to detectives at Miami-Dade police for further investigation.

...

Trayvon, who was a junior at Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School, had never been arrested, police and the family have said.

“We think everybody is trying to demonize him,” Crump said.

No evidence ever surfaced that the jewelry was stolen.

Martin receive absolutely no disciplinary action for possessing the jewelry, despite the fact that it was supposedly evidence of a potential felony.

Again, I invite you to explain why there never were and still are not any charges filed for this egregious act, if so much "evidence" exists.

I guess Zimmerman's cousin isn't alone in her unwillingness to press charges for serious crimes.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Kind of answered your own question there, didn't you?

Not really.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html

Martin receive absolutely no disciplinary action for possessing the jewelry, despite the fact that it was supposedly evidence of a potential felony.

What exactly is this article supposed to prove ? Do you believe that is the extent of TM juvenile and/or school record ?

If not, then what is the point ?

I guess Zimmerman's cousin isn't alone in her unwillingness to press charges for serious crimes.

Except that rape and stolen rings aren't exactly the same class of "serious crimes" and unlike the jewelry people, the cousin knew exactly who to press charges against. If anything illegal actually happened outside of her imagination.

 

[Unabogie]

If anything illegal actually happened outside of her imagination.

Just a prime example of confirmation bias. You can hear her testimony on tape. You really listened to that and thought she made it all up about her own family member, even though none of the Zimmerman family members called her a liar?

Don't you find that telling?

 

[Skeptic Tank]

And his act of rape is exactly the same as the Ohio football players who just got convicted.

Aren't you forgetting the small matter of the Ohio girl being unconscious at the time?

Oh and the fact that thousands of text messages and several eye witnesses substantiate what happened to her?

Oh and that they were convicted in a court of law?

As compared to the word of one person... which hasn't lead even to so much as a charge, let alone a conviction.

A person who herself admits that on the final occasion, and seemingly the only one where he was legally an adult, and she was not... she willingly climbed into bed at his behest, and what transpired then was NOT anything which would be considered a rape. The only actions she claims which could fit those parameters seem to be said to have happened when they were both minors, and both much younger.

I think the timing of when she decided to say something to authorities about this, is fishy. I think when someone's being demonized on national scale, people come out of the woodwork to pile on.

That said, what she claims may be entirely true. I don't know. I'm not here advancing the idea that George Zimmerman is some sort of candidate for sainthood.

What I'm saying is that the evidence we have of the night of Feb 26th points strongly toward a self-defense shooting, and that it is consistent with Zimmerman's account well beyond the level needed to establish at least reasonable doubt as to his guilt.

As for the Trayvon burglar angle? I have no idea if he had burglarized Zimmerman's neighborhood or not. What I do know is, if the Miami School Police report is accurate... and he really was caught with 12 pieces of real jewelry, and a screwdriver... and claimed it was a friend's but he "couldn't remember" who that friend was... well then, although I cannot achieve 100% certainty, I also wasn't born yesterday.

My conclusion would be the same that the Officer came to.

 

[This is The End]

What's with you and this bizzare insistence that being knocked down and not getting up after precludes someone from moving? At least two people actually saw Zimmerman during the course of the struggle - both of them saw him on the ground. No one saw Zimmerman on his feet. Zimmerman clearly claims to have tried to slide out from Martin during the very first interview but never estimates or is asked about the distance covered.

Read the statement for crying out loud:

There's also the written statement:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/06/22/us/21george-zimmerman-transcript.html?_r=0

"The suspect punched me in the face. I fell backwards onto my back. The suspect got on top of me."

Why do you even try and convince yourself that they "slid" or "scooted" the entire distance...

 

[Unabogie]

Aren't you forgetting the small matter of the Ohio girl being unconscious at the time?

Oh and the fact that thousands of text messages and several eye witnesses substantiate what happened to her?

Oh and that they were convicted in a court of law?

As compared to the word of one person... which hasn't lead even to so much as a charge, let alone a conviction.

A person who herself admits that on the final occasion, and seemingly the only one where he was legally an adult, and she was not... she willingly climbed into bed at his behest, and what transpired then was NOT anything which would be considered a rape. The only actions she claims which could fit those parameters seem to be said to have happened when they were both minors, and both much younger.

I think the timing of when she decided to say something to authorities about this, is fishy. I think when someone's being demonized on national scale, people come out of the woodwork to pile on.

That said, what she claims may be entirely true. I don't know. I'm not here advancing the idea that George Zimmerman is some sort of candidate for sainthood.

What I'm saying is that the evidence we have of the night of Feb 26th points strongly toward a self-defense shooting, and that it is consistent with Zimmerman's account well beyond the level needed to establish at least reasonable doubt as to his guilt.

As for the Trayvon burglar angle? I have no idea if he had burglarized Zimmerman's neighborhood or not. What I do know is, if the Miami School Police report is accurate... and he really was caught with 12 pieces of real jewelry, and a screwdriver... and claimed it was a friend's but he "couldn't remember" who that friend was... well then, although I cannot achieve 100% certainty, I also wasn't born yesterday.

My conclusion would be the same that the Officer came to.

If that was his conclusion why were no charges filed?

 

[This is The End]

I've been following and discussing this case (extensively) from days after it happened, and more than a year.

Trayvon getting up after shot and stumbling accounts for a bit more.

Trayvon got UP after being shot?

Are you implying that's impossible? I assure you it's not.

You should be aware that you saying that possibly happened proves that your first statement is not true. You can't have been "following and discussing this case (extensively) from days after it happened, and more than a year" if you think that it is possible Trayvon got up and moved around after being shot.

Well, either that or you are being disingenuous.

 

[Unabogie]

Question: if Witness 8 is really the star witness for the State, and her credibility was shot over the hospital issue, and the defense has now deposed her, when will we see them file for an immunity hearing, do you all think?

 

[Unabogie]

A person who herself admits that on the final occasion, and seemingly the only one where he was legally an adult, and she was not... she willingly climbed into bed at his behest, and what transpired then was NOT anything which would be considered a rape. The only actions she claims which could fit those parameters seem to be said to have happened when they were both minors, and both much younger.

So let's back up. You first claimed it all took place when they were both children. That's obviously not true. It took place over ten years. When she was 18, "at his behest" she climbed into his bed but claimed he bullied her (hmm, where have we heard that one before?), but hey, that's not rape, so just because he allegedly raped her over 10 years since the final incident didn't result in rape, it's all good? By the way, do you have a link to that last part?

Am I following this correctly? Because it sounds an awful lot like post hoc rationalization of a sex assault to me.

 

[Noztradamus]

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis
If anything illegal actually happened outside of her imagination.

Just a prime example of confirmation bias. You can hear her testimony on tape. You really listened to that and thought she made it all up about her own family member, even though none of the Zimmerman family members called her a liar?

Don't you find that telling?

Also, when in her early 20s she confronted GZ with the matter in the presence of other familiy members. From the pathetic nature of his response she may have decided he wasn't worth the effort of stomping on and got on with her life.
And she appears to now have a pretty good life and George is the same loser he's always been.

So the only question remaining is why George has her name tattooed on his body?

 

[Skeptic Tank]

If that was his conclusion why were no charges filed?

Because, if the report is accurate, Trayvon said what he needed to say to both prevent personal accountability for the items, and prevent the investigation from continuing by not providing a name.

And, because the jewelry didn't match any stolen jewelry reports with Miami PD. Jewelry, however, doesn't have serial numbers and I'm guessing Miami PD has a pretty massive catalog of stolen jewelry reports, and I'm also guessing the vast majority of them don't have any pictures for comparison associated with them. Probably just basic descriptions of the jewelry (materials, basic design) - the odds of matching it in a municipality like that... would be very poor.

The same may be true of trying to match it to reports in Sanford PD's catalog, though surely less so. However, I do think it would be very interesting if the victims of burglary in Retreat at Twin Lakes were given the opportunity to look directly at the items themselves. If any of them reported stolen jewelry that is... something I'm sure will never happen, but just saying it would be interesting to see the results of that.

Am I following this correctly? Because it sounds an awful lot like post hoc rationalization of a sex assault to me.

No, it sounds like what it is. Dealing with her accusations as what they are, not as what you wish them to be in order to facilitate turning George Zimmerman into some sort of inhuman bogeyman in your mind.

If what she claims is all true, I find the behavior utterly vile. It would also reflect VERY poorly on Zimmerman's character as a person.

But in order for him to have shot in self-defense on Feb 26th, 2012, he needn't be a saint. He needn't even be a halfway decent person, though I do feel there is more compelling and substantial evidence of him being that, than of him being a raping monster.

The reason I find the stuff about Trayvon and the jewelry more interesting than I find the Zimmerman cousin story, is because I can see how the jewelry thing could relate very directly to things about that night. Such as establishing that Zimmerman wasn't totally nuts to think Trayvon might be casing houses, rather than just looking around in a normal fashion. Or helping explain his reactions to being monitored.

The person who implied Zimmerman might have had a sexual interest in Trayvon wasn't being serious, doesn't actually believe that, and knows it's an absurd claim. Even if it were true, having bad reasons for keeping an eye on someone doesn't entitle them to beat you to their heart's content.

 

[Rare Truth]

Question: if Witness 8 is really the star witness for the State, and her credibility was shot over the hospital issue, and the defense has now deposed her, when will we see them file for an immunity hearing, do you all think?

Not gu'nah 'appen.

 

[Unabogie]

Also, when in her early 20s she confronted GZ with the matter in the presence of other familiy members. From the pathetic nature of his response she may have decided he wasn't worth the effort of stomping on and got on with her life.
And she appears to now have a pretty good life and George is the same loser he's always been.

So the only question remaining is why George has her name tattooed on his body?

That's a joke, right?

 

[Unabogie]

Not gu'nah 'appen.

I was going to guess 12th of Never, but that date is taken for a Bar Mitzvah.

 

[Unabogie]

Because, if the report is accurate, Trayvon said what he needed to say to both prevent personal accountability for the items, and prevent the investigation from continuing by not providing a name.

And, because the jewelry didn't match any stolen jewelry reports with Miami PD. Jewelry, however, doesn't have serial numbers and I'm guessing Miami PD has a pretty massive catalog of stolen jewelry reports, and I'm also guessing the vast majority of them don't have any pictures for comparison associated with them. Probably just basic descriptions of the jewelry (materials, basic design) - the odds of matching it in a municipality like that... would be very poor.

Fascinating. So the fact that no charges were files, no jewelry was reported missing, and nothing ever came of this supposed event, just proves that Trayvon Martin was a burglar even MORE.

And we can rule out other possible explanations, like maybe he bought the jewelry from someone. Maybe it didn't belong to him and someone else stole it. Maybe it was given to him. Maybe it was costume jewelry not worth crap. Nope, we must jump to the conclusion that Trayvon was an accomplished burglar. Nice. Remind me of this whole burden of proof and innocent until proven guilty thing? Because it seem to only go one way around here.