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Janadele said:
The majority of comments which have been posted regarding the Book of Abraham are entirely inappropriate of Sacred matters and are in fact religious persecution. The Pearl of Great Price is official Scripture and therefore official Doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp?lang=eng
The Book of Abraham is a part of the Pearl of Great Price. "A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus."
(See History of the Church, 2:235–36, 348–51.)
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This is not Fast and Testimony Meeting. This is the JREFF, a skeptic's forum, and we'll treat your ridiculous religion and its false texts with all the seriousness they deserve.

Any answer as to the anachronisms of the BoM by any chance? We're nearly to page 100 and still haven't got that one hashed out.
 
Janadele said:
A reminder that the topic of THIS thread is LDS, not "anti-Mormon" or "whatever". Those who have no interest in the actual Doctrines and Teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints should state their beliefs in a more appropriate thread.
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This IS the appropriate thread. If you state "I believe A" to begin a thread in a forum such as this, it is exactly, completely and thoroughly on topic for others to say "I do not believe A, and here's why." If you don't get that, you don't get anything.
 
Janadele said:
Try to keep to what has actually been posted rather than incorrectly commenting and embellishing. "Are lying when they say" being the key words responded to of the following:
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I am addressing what has been posted. You were asked if you thought that Egyptologists were lying about the Book of Abraham and you responded, "Of course". That is just crazy. You are implying that the entire field of Egyptology as an elaborate lie concocted to discredit Joseph Smith. If the papyri really say what Smith claimed they say, then the entire ancient Egyptian written language was fabricated as part of an international conspiracy against Mormonism.

But seeing as the fraud of the Book of Abraham is but one problem facing the LDS, we can also infer that you also must think that geneticists are lying when they point out that the aboriginal Americans and Pacific islanders are not descended form Jewish stock. Linguists must by lying when they say there is no evidence of any Hebrew origin in any of the many languages claimed by Smith to be the descendants of Jewish immigrants to the Americas, etcetera.

If Egyptology is an anti-Mormon lie, then so is virtually every other field of research that contradicts the "history" related by Smith.
 
Janadele said:
A reminder that the topic of THIS thread is LDS, not "anti-Mormon" or "whatever". Those who have no interest in the actual Doctrines and Teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints should state their beliefs in a more appropriate thread.
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We are discussing the LDS and its doctrines and teachings. If you don't like seeing these critically examined, perhaps you should be posting in a more appropriate forum. This is a forum for questioning ideas and arguing their merits, not a forum for preaching.
 
Janadele said:
Once again,try to keep to what has actually been posted, rather than incorrectly commenting and embellishing. A question was asked by pakeha:
"Of course" was the answer given to the question as framed. The question of "were they mistaken" was not asked.
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Yes, we know. You said that Egyptologist are liars. As Egyptology, including the ancient Egyptian written language, are a major area of scholarly study around the globe, this means that you regard the whole thing as part of a sham created to discredit Joseph Smith. Does this not strike you as sounding rather silly?
 
Janadele said:
The majority of comments which have been posted regarding the Book of Abraham are entirely inappropriate of Sacred matters and are in fact religious persecution.
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Give us a break. Saying, "I don't believe you" and offering reasons why we think you are wrong isn't even remotely near to "religious persecution". Your histrionics are an insult to anyone who has ever faced persecution because of their religious beliefs, including members of the early Mormon church. Please remember that you came to this forum and opened this discussion. If the disagreement of others regarding your beliefs is so offensive to you that you feel persecuted, then perhaps you should leave.


The Pearl of Great Price is official Scripture and therefore official Doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp?lang=eng
The Book of Abraham is a part of the Pearl of Great Price. "A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus."
(See History of the Church, 2:235–36, 348–51.)
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The Book of Abraham is a work by Joseph Smith. The overwhelming evidence of its fraudulent nature bears relevance to his credibility regarding the Book of Mormon.
 
pakeha said:
Thanks for answering, Janadele.
Just to be clear, you ARE saying Egyptologists are lying when they say Smith's Book of Abraham bear no resemblance to the papyrii he claimed to translate?

And this is official LDS policy?
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I don't think she knows, and that is very sad.

She's demanded the thread discuss only LDS doctrine and scriptures and only in a positive light, yet she seems to fall short in her own understandings. Every religion has its mind-numb sychophants, I suppose, but here we have an extreme case. From what I have read of Mormon apologetics, the spin-doctoring though not particularly convincing is a whole lot more thoughtful and reasoned than anything Janadele has spewed.
 
Janadele said:
Of course.

A Prophet, Seer and Revelator, as was Joseph Smith, has far superior knowledge and inspiration... plus Revelation, from the Lord God and creator of this earth. His words are the truth.
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I have been following this thread since the beginning and, although I have found it very interesting and informative, I have not felt the urge to contribute - up til now.

I am a professional field archaeologist and I take great exception to your accusation of lying by myself and my colleagues in this field of study. Although I am not an egyptologist (not many Egyptians in the south west of England, lol!) your comment does implicate me and my friends - or is it only those that study ancient Egyptians that lie?

I studied for years to be able to do my job and I work hard, all year round and in all weathers, in order to find out the truth about our ancestors and the way they lived their lives, and you have the audacity to just hand wave that away and say "oh they are liars"!

I really couldn't give a mummy's curse what drivel you want to believe, but when you dismiss the hard work and dedication of a whole professional body of people who dedicate their lives to finding the truth about our past and origins in favour of a con man telling obvious lies, then Madam, you offend me mightily!!

Sorry for the rant guys, that comment just made my blood boil! :mad:

D
 
Cheezey D said:
I have been following this thread since the beginning and, although I have found it very interesting and informative, I have not felt the urge to contribute - up til now.

I am a professional field archaeologist and I take great exception to your accusation of lying by myself and my colleagues in this field of study. Although I am not an egyptologist (not many Egyptians in the south west of England, lol!) your comment does implicate me and my friends - or is it only those that study ancient Egyptians that lie?

I studied for years to be able to do my job and I work hard, all year round and in all weathers, in order to find out the truth about our ancestors and the way they lived their lives, and you have the audacity to just hand wave that away and say "oh they are liars"!

I really couldn't give a mummy's curse what drivel you want to believe, but when you dismiss the hard work and dedication of a whole professional body of people who dedicate their lives to finding the truth about our past and origins in favour of a con man telling obvious lies, then Madam, you offend me mightily!!

Sorry for the rant guys, that comment just made my blood boil! :mad:

D
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Well said!
 
I found Wiki helpful on the subject of the BofA. Note that there are Mormon and Non-Mormon professionals who have agreed on the essentially bogus nature of the Smith translations.

Those who have not been exposed to the atmosphere of the world of the scientist or major universities cannot understand the gravity of the repercussions of "lying" in their research efforts can produce. The penalties are quite onerous. It is certainly not worth losing one's career over trying to discredit a religion by telling falsehoods. To claim this is just silly.

Source

In November 1967 the LDS church asked Hugh Nibley, a professor of ancient scripture at Brigham Young University (BYU), to study the fragments. Nibley was a linguist, but not an Egyptologist, and subsequently studied under John A. Wilson and Klaus Baer in an attempt to learn enough about the Egyptian characters to translate them himself.[74] The LDS church published sepia photographs of the papyri in its magazine "The Improvement Era" in February 1968, although a translation was not provided at the time.[75] The editors of an independent quarterly journal Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, arranged a translation of the papyri from the photographs by three American Egyptologists; John A. Wilson (University of Chicago, Oriental Institute), Klaus Baer (University of Chicago, Oriental Institute), and Richard A. Parker (Director of the Department of Egyptology, Brown University).[76] Their translations were published in Dialogue in the summer and autumn of 1968.


Other translations and analyses have been performed at various times since 1968 by Mormon and non-Mormon scholars, including Michael D. Rhodes (BYU),[77] John Gee (BYU),[78] and Robert K. Ritner (University of Chicago).[79] The translations among all of these scholars are consistent.
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The claim that any hard science disagreements with the LDS scripture are lies seems to be something only the most fundamentalist sects adhere to, since my LDS acquaintances were nearly all university types, and none of them was anywhere near this view. This thread is reminiscent of the "Noah's Ark" or "Shroud of Turin" arguments for authenticity.
 
:thumbsup:

Cheezey D, there are many non-scientists who appreciate the hard work put into contributing to understandings of the way our ancestors lived their lives. Thank you!
 
Let us read again the quote responded to:
pakeha said:
Are you saying that the entirety of the Egyptologists are lying when they say what Smith passed off as a 'translation' bears no resemblance to the truth?
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"mistaken" would have been a better choice of word for pakeha to have used when framing the question. However, the plain and simple fact is, that this statement/question posed by pakeha:
"when they say what Smith passed off as a 'translation' bears no resemblance to the truth" ... whoever "they" may be, are most certainly incorrect, mistaken, and making a statement which is not the truth.
 
Janadele said:
The majority of comments which have been posted regarding the Book of Abraham are entirely inappropriate of Sacred matters and are in fact religious persecution. The Pearl of Great Price is official Scripture and therefore official Doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp?lang=eng
The Book of Abraham is a part of the Pearl of Great Price. "A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus."
(See History of the Church, 2:235–36, 348–51.)
Click to expand...

Because it has been shown that LDS is founded on a fraud by a conman and serial liar who couldn't keep it in his magic underpants, anything which attempts to say otherwise is off topic for this thread about the LDS. Links to virulently pro-mormon sites are spam.
 
Janadele said:
Let us read again the quote responded to:
"mistaken" would have been a better choice of word for pakeha to have used when framing the question. However, the plain and simple fact is, that this statement/question posed by pakeha:
"when they say what Smith passed off as a 'translation' bears no resemblance to the truth" ... whoever "they" may be, are most certainly incorrect, mistaken, and making a statement which is not the truth.
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Pakeha specifically asked if Egyptologists were lying. You replied "Of course." If you don't like the fall-out from that, too bad. You don't get to go back and claim Pakeha should have said something else. She said what she said, and you responded to it. It was a revolting response, and insulting to all scientists in any relevant field.
 
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