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The majority of comments which have been posted regarding the Book of Abraham are entirely inappropriate of Sacred matters and are in fact religious persecution. The Pearl of Great Price is official Scripture and therefore official Doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp?lang=eng
The Book of Abraham is a part of the Pearl of Great Price. "A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus."
(See History of the Church, 2:235–36, 348–51.)
 
Pointing out that a particular document is a clumsy fake is not religious persecution, no matter what some gullible people may have chosen to believe about it. Trying to prevent those who do not share your beliefs from stating proven facts, however, ...
 
Janadele said:
The majority of comments which have been posted regarding the Book of Abraham are entirely inappropriate of Sacred matters and are in fact religious persecution. The Pearl of Great Price is official Scripture and therefore official Doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp?lang=eng
The Book of Abraham is a part of the Pearl of Great Price. "A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus."
(See History of the Church, 2:235–36, 348–51.)
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This would be the position taken by any Mormon, then.

And those catacombs of Egypt?
Where are they, exactly?

As for the idea that pointing out the bogus nature of the Book of Abraham is religious persecution, of course you'll explain why stating the truth is falls into the category of religious persecution.
 
pakeha said:
I beg to differ, O Sideroxylon of the lovely avatar, as I've never had any difficulty with those assembly instructions.
Still, not even the shop assistants believe when I tell them this as they try to steer me gently away from the more complex items.
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Thank you for the compliments. Akhenaten and Zax are the artistic talents behind much of it. Oh, and back at you. :)

Perhaps IKEA instructions were not the clearest example for reasons you have pointed out. If someone from a far-removed time and culture took an everyday contemporary document (like flat-pack furniture instructions) and tried to impose their own interpretation on it, while filling out some missing pieces with their own intuitions and fantasies, it would be obvious to us. I imagine an ancient Egyptian familiar with the religion and burial practices of her time might be amused or offended at Smith's interpretation of their burial documents. We don't have any ancient Egyptians* to ask about such matters but we do have people who have dedicated their academic lives to understanding this culture and language. These people have described Smith's work as blatant misrepresentation.

ETA: *Apologies to Akhenaten for this grave oversight.
 
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Wow. According to Janadele, Egyptologists are "lying" when they translate hieroglyphics correctly, and to point out that hieroglyphics are widely understood now and JS was wrong is "religious persecution". That mindset is so divorced from reality, it is a sad thing to read.
 
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Janadele said:
The majority of comments which have been posted regarding the Book of Abraham are entirely inappropriate of Sacred matters and are in fact religious persecution. The Pearl of Great Price is official Scripture and therefore official Doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp?lang=eng
The Book of Abraham is a part of the Pearl of Great Price. "A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus."
(See History of the Church, 2:235–36, 348–51.)
Click to expand...

If an alleged holy text clearly makes a claim of fact that contradicts well established facts about the world and someone points it out, is that persecution? If this conversation was going on unwanted in your workplace then persecution would be a fair description. This however is a sceptics' forum, Janadele. Whether the claims are homeopathy, telekinesis or divine revelation they will, by definition of this concept, be subjected to doubt. If you really care about the truth you could consider such critique a valuable test of your worldview, strengthening what passes muster and allowing you to jettison or modify what fails.
 
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Janadele said:
The majority of comments which have been posted regarding the Book of Abraham are entirely inappropriate of Sacred matters and are in fact religious persecution.
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​

Or to put a finer point on it, which posts are factually incorrect?

Don't include the ones made by yourself or skyrider - those are a given.


Janadele said:
The Pearl of Great Price is official Scripture and therefore official Doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
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The fact that the LDS considers such a clumsy and transparent fabrication as the Book of Abraham to be exempt from criticism carries no weight in the real world, Janadele.

You can proclaim it to be the most sacred and holy document ever to have entered into human experience for all I care; it's certainly not going to keep me from pointing out that it's total bollocks.


Janadele said:
The Book of Abraham is a part of the Pearl of Great Price. "A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus."
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Except that that's not what it is at all.

Well, it's obviously part of the POGP thingy, but it's no more a translation of anything Egyptian than the Valaquenta is a translation of the ancient Valar tale of the origins of Arda.

What makes this thread so delicious though is that your refusal to even consider the overwhelming evidence that this is the case is doing far more harm to your cause than a hundred "anti-Mormon" websites could ever hope to acheive.

Please carry on.
 
Janadele said:
The majority of comments which have been posted regarding the Book of Abraham are entirely inappropriate of Sacred matters and are in fact religious persecution. The Pearl of Great Price is official Scripture and therefore official Doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp?lang=eng
The Book of Abraham is a part of the Pearl of Great Price. "A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus."
(See History of the Church, 2:235–36, 348–51.)
Click to expand...

They "fell into our hands" for $2,400. I wouldn't trust scripture that you can buy form a traveling sideshow barker.

(Probably the best deal the barker made in his life)
 
Sideroxylon said:
If an alleged holy text clearly makes a claim of fact that contradicts well established facts about the world and someone points it out, is that persecution? If this conversation was going on unwanted in your workplace then persecution would be a fair description. This however is a sceptics' forum, Janadele. Whether the claims are homeopathy, telekinesis or divine revelation they will, by definition of this concept, be subjected to doubt. If you really care about the truth you could consider such critique a valuable test of your worldview, strengthening what passes muster and allowing you to jettison or modify what fails.
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It's an odd persecution that has to actively seek out the persecutors.

It's just another attempt to dominate the conversation.
 
zooterkin said:
Will Wilbur's lady friend be putting in an appearance, I wonder? Wilma? Wilhelmina?
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Wilma.jpg


Wilma sounds good, I reckon.

:)
 
Janadele said:
Once again,try to keep to what has actually been posted, rather than incorrectly commenting and embellishing. A question was asked by pakeha:
"Of course" was the answer given to the question as framed. The question of "were they mistaken" was not asked.
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I am not sure what you think your point is. Paheka posted:

pakeha said:
Are you saying that the entirety of the Egyptologists are lying when they say what Smith passed off as a 'translation' bears no resemblance to the truth?
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(emphasis added)

...to which you replied:

Janadele said:
Of course.

A Prophet, Seer and Revelator, as was Joseph Smith, has far superior knowledge and inspiration... plus Revelation, from the Lord God and creator of this earth. His words are the truth.
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...to which I replied:

Slowvehicle said:
How...charitable...that your knee-jerk response to the vast array of scholars who have presented evidence from multiple disciplines (Egyptology, archaeology, history, anthropology, genetics, metallurgy, agriculture, animal husbandry, and psychology, to name but a few) that the BoA is not in any way a "translation" of the Book of Breathing fragment reproduced in the illustrations, but a fraudulent fiction; is that they are, not mistaken, but "lying"...
Do you realize how telling that defensive reaction is?
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Here is your chance to clarify. If you believe that Egyptologists who point out that all of the evidence indicates that the BoA is not in any way a "translation" of the Book of Breathing fragment reproduced in the illustrations, but a fraudulent fiction, are "mistaken", please say so, and present and explain the practical, empirical, real-world evidence (from neutral sources) that indicates their mistake.

The "of course" you posted (in response to Paheka's "Are you saying that the entirety of the Egyptologists are lying..." seems to indicate that you do,in fact, think that they are lying. If that is not your opinion, please feel encouraged to demonstrate what is.

To what in my post is it that you object? Are you now going to say that "of course" the Egyptologists are lying, but that you think that all the other scientists are merely mistaken? Be so kind as to explicate.
 
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Janadele said:
The Book of Abraham is a part of the Pearl of Great Price. "A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus."
(See History of the Church, 2:235–36, 348–51.)
Click to expand...


MaccasGlyph3.jpg


Would you like fries with that?​
 
Janadele said:
The majority of comments which have been posted regarding the Book of Abraham are entirely inappropriate of Sacred matters and are in fact religious persecution. The Pearl of Great Price is official Scripture and therefore official Doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp?lang=eng
The Book of Abraham is a part of the Pearl of Great Price. "A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus."
(See History of the Church, 2:235–36, 348–51.)
Click to expand...

...you do realize that you are on a forum specifically dedicated to skeptical inquiry, right?Be so good as to explain how presenting real-world, practical, empirical, demonstrable evidence as to the provenance of a fraudulent piece of fiction is "religious persecution".

No one has told you you may not believe as you choose.

You, on the other hand, keep preaching that we should all accept your beliefs as true on faith. Who is "persecuting" whom? (Even ignoring,for the sake of argument, your offering of glurge pap as an alternative to scholarship...)
 
Akhenaten said:
[qimg]http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/MaccasGlyph3.jpg[/qimg]

Would you like fries with that?​
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Well I looked at my stone in a hat* and it tells me that the proper translation is:

Try the veal.


*to cross check I used the Corn Gods Transform and got:

take two small cows by mouth as the stomach turns




which I take to mean the same thing.
 
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