Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

[Krikkiter]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_About_Radiation

 

[The Dark Lord]

Lol. Being a nuclear physicist was one on LRon's many lies about himself.

 

[pakeha]

I'd like to know more about E-meters, Fred.
I've asked about them before, perhaps my question got lost in the numbers.

And also, why are freezoners called 'squirrels'?

 

[tsig]

Didn't you read my post? And Dianetics was based on a lie about curing non-existent war injuries. What do you have to say about that?

The main thing I remember about "Dianetics" is an extraordinary fixation on mothers self aborting with coat-hangers.

 

[AdMan]

A religion? No chance.

Of course it's a religion.

It says so in the contract Scientology participants who enroll in their "religious services" have to sign:

2. This Contract is my statement of my personal, self-determined desire to participate in the Religious Services of the Scientology religion. By signing this Contract, I recognize, acknowledge and agree that:

a. Scientology is a religion, the Church is a church of the Scientology religion, and all the services and activities of the Scientology religion are exclusively religious in nature.

<snip>

I FULLY UNDERSTAND THAT BY SIGNING BELOW, I AM FOREVER GIVING UP MY RIGHT TO SUE THE CHURCH, ITS STAFF AND ANY OF THE HEREINABOVE REFERENCED RELEASEES FOR ANY INJURY OR DAMAGE SUFFERED IN ANY WAY CONNECTED WITH SCIENTOLOGY RELIGIOUS SERVICES.

Source (PDF)

Sounds reasonable, doesn't it?

 

[Krikkiter]

"Quote:
2. This Contract is my statement of my personal, self-determined desire to participate in the Religious Services of the Scientology religion. By signing this Contract, I recognize, acknowledge and agree that:

a. Scientology is a religion, the Church is a church of the Scientology religion, and all the services and activities of the Scientology religion are exclusively religious in nature.
<snip>

I FULLY UNDERSTAND THAT BY SIGNING BELOW, I AM FOREVER GIVING UP MY RIGHT TO SUE THE CHURCH, ITS STAFF AND ANY OF THE HEREINABOVE REFERENCED RELEASEES FOR ANY INJURY OR DAMAGE SUFFERED IN ANY WAY CONNECTED WITH SCIENTOLOGY RELIGIOUS SERVICES."

"This may be the first nonreligious moral code based wholly on common sense.
It was written by L. Ron Hubbard as an individual work and is not part of any religious
doctrine. Any reprinting or individual distribution of it does not infer connection
with or sponsorship of any religious organization. It is therefore admissible for
government departments and employees to distribute it as a nonreligious activity.
(Reprinting can be arranged with The Way to Happiness Foundation International.)"

"Educator Resource Kit"

This is quite confusing to me.

 

[xjx388]

1. Sure - In years past Ive heard of people using Scientology for years and never having set foot in a church. Nowadays there are courses one can take online for free and using the principles therein be a volunteer minister for life.

Define "using Scientology." Is this the same thing as actually practicing the religion?

To use the Catholic analogy again, is someone really Catholic if they don't participate in the Sacraments but just go to Mass and read the bible every now and then? Will their soul be saved? The priest I talked to says no: In order to actually practice the Catholic faith, one must actively take part in the Sacraments.

Couldn't we say something similar about Scientology and auditing?

2. But to be a fully ordained minister will take doing a course in a church.

Right. And that costs quite a bit of money, no? If the goal is to get as many people as possible to be ministers or up the bridge wouldn't it make sense to offer such services free or at very low cost? Of course, if the goal is to make money . . .

3. Approx 99.99 % of all of Mr. Hubbards writings are available to anyone to learn and apply.

I don't believe that's true. Sure, anyone can order the basic books. But is that really 99.9% of Hubbard's writings? And will that 99.9% lead to Clear and/or OT? I have every basic book that the Church sells (acquired on eBay). But even if I read every one of them, I wouldn't even have taken the first step on the Bridge. In order to start on the Bridge, I need auditing and auditing processes are not available in the books.

4. I supposes one could do most of the things mentioned above and never spend a dime. Seems a bit weird to me the idea that a parishioner would never contribute anything to his church but I think I get the point.

So one could get Scientology auditing for free or by donating $20 or so? I think not . . .

I agree that a parishioner should support his church to the best of his ability. How else is a church to survive? However, Scientology takes this too far by denying it's version of salvation to anyone who can't pay the exorbitant fees. This is the antithesis of a sincere ministry, IMHO. If the church truly believes that they have mankind's only hope for salvation, how can they justify denying it to anyone who can't pay for it or make themselves a slave to the church?

I have donated tons of my own time (and money) helping others and have never asked for anything in return. I'm willing to help most anyone. All they have to do is ask. That's pretty typical of most religions I would think.

But Scientology doesn't allow auditing except through its own network of auditors. People auditing New Era Dianetics or OT levels outside of the Church would be considered, at a minimum, squirrels, no?

I also have done many classes (course) at my church and have donated funds to do so. Happily I might add.

But what of the poor, who, if the benefits of the church are real, need the services the most? Can someone ask for auditing/training at a church and get it at little or no cost?

One could conceivable find a partner and and apply the counseling principles to another back and forth and never set foot in a church. I have no idea how affective this would be or how long it would take. You might not spend a dime but it will still take a significant investment in effort and time.

Would these people have access to the materials needed to go Clear and beyond? And again, the Church would consider those people squirrels at best or SPs at worst.

I've met people that have done that as well. Its actually a good question to raise and one that we are working on solving. How do we deliver the Subject of Scientology to all the peoples of Earth? We have huge translations project in place and I think we have finally made some serious inroads on translating some of the more fundamental scripture into chinese.

The solution is simple: Stop charging so much. Seriously. Should it really cost as much as $320/hr to audit? Make the material and services freely available like every other religion. People are more than happy to donate to a Church if they feel they get a benefit. If the goal is truly to "Clear the Planet!" and liberate as many people as possible then it should be as close to free as possible. Of course, if the goal is to make money, then . . .

New facilities we have put in place make producing lectures and books far cheaper than when they were originally recorded/written.

And yet, they are sold for far more money than ever before. The entire package of books and lectures goes for over $17,000. And this purchase does not even begin to scratch the surface on your progress up the Bridge.

Maybe a third to two thirds of the Scientology scriptures discuss the application of the subject to attaining the goal of Scientology as laid out above. As you can probably tell I really don't know the percentage.

It's not that hard. Going Clear and OT is 100% auditing in Scientology. You can't buy a book that gives you the processes necessary to go Clear or OT. You can't audit yourself up the bridge. You simply must purchase auditing or purchase courses and co-audit. Either way is prohibitively expensive for most people.

There are two ways to advance to the highest levels in Scientology: Pay big money or sell yourself as almost free labor to the church.

 

[tsig]

Define "using Scientology." Is this the same thing as actually practicing the religion?

To use the Catholic analogy again, is someone really Catholic if they don't participate in the Sacraments but just go to Mass and read the bible every now and then? Will their soul be saved? The priest I talked to says no: In order to actually practice the Catholic faith, one must actively take part in the Sacraments.

Couldn't we say something similar about Scientology and auditing?

Right. And that costs quite a bit of money, no? If the goal is to get as many people as possible to be ministers or up the bridge wouldn't it make sense to offer such services free or at very low cost? Of course, if the goal is to make money . . .

I don't believe that's true. Sure, anyone can order the basic books. But is that really 99.9% of Hubbard's writings? And will that 99.9% lead to Clear and/or OT? I have every basic book that the Church sells (acquired on eBay). But even if I read every one of them, I wouldn't even have taken the first step on the Bridge. In order to start on the Bridge, I need auditing and auditing processes are not available in the books.

So one could get Scientology auditing for free or by donating $20 or so? I think not . . .

I agree that a parishioner should support his church to the best of his ability. How else is a church to survive? However, Scientology takes this too far by denying it's version of salvation to anyone who can't pay the exorbitant fees. This is the antithesis of a sincere ministry, IMHO. If the church truly believes that they have mankind's only hope for salvation, how can they justify denying it to anyone who can't pay for it or make themselves a slave to the church?

But Scientology doesn't allow auditing except through its own network of auditors. People auditing New Era Dianetics or OT levels outside of the Church would be considered, at a minimum, squirrels, no?

But what of the poor, who, if the benefits of the church are real, need the services the most? Can someone ask for auditing/training at a church and get it at little or no cost?

Would these people have access to the materials needed to go Clear and beyond? And again, the Church would consider those people squirrels at best or SPs at worst.

The solution is simple: Stop charging so much. Seriously. Should it really cost as much as $320/hr to audit? Make the material and services freely available like every other religion. People are more than happy to donate to a Church if they feel they get a benefit. If the goal is truly to "Clear the Planet!" and liberate as many people as possible then it should be as close to free as possible. Of course, if the goal is to make money, then . . .

And yet, they are sold for far more money than ever before. The entire package of books and lectures goes for over $17,000. And this purchase does not even begin to scratch the surface on your progress up the Bridge.

It's not that hard. Going Clear and OT is 100% auditing in Scientology. You can't buy a book that gives you the processes necessary to go Clear or OT. You can't audit yourself up the bridge. You simply must purchase auditing or purchase courses and co-audit. Either way is prohibitively expensive for most people.

There are two ways to advance to the highest levels in Scientology: Pay big money or sell yourself as almost free labor to the church.

3. Kill the founder and take over.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I do answer with what I think.

To pick the first example I come across:

This is a line taken from the book "Scientology: The Fundamentals of Thought."

"The goal of Scientology is making the individual capable of living a better life in his own estimation and with his fellows and the playing of a better game."

So that's a pretty clear statement of the goal of the subject.

That's not answering what you think, that's parroting back something someone else has said. When someone asks you a question and you say that you're not going to paraphrase something but instead direct them to read books and websites, that's not telling people what you think, that's parroting back something someone else has said without even going to the effort of copy and pasting.

No, when someone asks you a question, they want to know what you think. Not what someone else has said.

 

[pakeha]

... Going Clear and OT is 100% auditing in Scientology. You can't buy a book that gives you the processes necessary to go Clear or OT. You can't audit yourself up the bridge. You simply must purchase auditing or purchase courses and co-audit. Either way is prohibitively expensive for most people.

There are two ways to advance to the highest levels in Scientology: Pay big money or sell yourself as almost free labor to the church.

Hi, another question for Fred.
How many hours of labour would it take to receive auditing up to Clear or OT?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I've just been reading some of Dianetics. Blimey does it ever go on. But what I found most significant was the number of times L. Ron Hubbard said that it was a science, and was therefore dealing in facts, rather than opinions. Leaving aside his obvious misunderstanding of scientific theories (including the definition of the word "theory), the simple question is - can anyone point to any scientific journals in which any of these claims have been published? Just one of them.

He claims that dianetics can restore eyesight and that people find themselves needing to buy several new pairs of glasses really quickly as their eyesight spontaneously improves. That seems like something there should be lots of empirical data for. Perhaps fredcarr or Justinian can point me to which scientific journal this data was published in? The book itself doesn't contain one single reference, which is highly unusual for a scientific work.

 

[pakeha]

http://askthescientologist.blogspot.com.es/2010/06/scientology-e-meter.html

Very early on, every new Scientologist is led to believe that they cannot keep any secrets from the e-meter. In session, when the auditor asks about their secrets, their bad actions, the meter reads. And the auditor won't stop until the meter stops reading, meaning the Scientologist has "told all".

In this way, the Church of Scientology can and does get all the person's crimes, sexual problems, secrets and so on. Every session starts with those questions. The church's files are quite full and quite complete. ...

Is this true, Fred?

Here's the second part of the article:
http://askthescientologist.blogspot.com.es/2010/06/more-on-scientology-e-meter.html

Is it true E-meters are only sold to Scientologists, Fred?

 

[Krikkiter]

Hi, another question for Fred.
How many hours of labour would it take to receive auditing up to Clear or OT?

My guess is gonna be....

Fred usual tactics to avoid direct questions are

1, Change the subject. 2. Make some innocuous remark that we can all agree on ( a particular CoS learnt tactic) 3. Direct you to read one of LRH's books or to a CoS "information" site.4. Say he doesn't care as it doesn't affect him, he's never seen/experienced it so can't comment.
5. Play the "you can't diss my religious beliefs" card so anyone who criticises CoS is just a bigot

 

[Justinian2]

Banzai Charge is the term used by the Allied forces to refer to Japanese human wave attacks mounted by infantry units. Impressed with how samurai were trained to commit suicide when a great humiliation was about to befall them, the government educated troops that it was a greater humiliation to surrender to the enemy than to die. (Some here would sacrifice the honor of their moniker than say "Thank you, I didn't know that". )

Note how government trained/educated the troops (their cult) to die rather than surrender. It seems a common characteristic of all governments that it's better to die than to lose. It's one of societies' brainwashing induced insanities. It was one of the efforts of Scientology to alleviate this type of insanity.

My premise: Until the majority can see in himself both the insanity and the brainwashing of their society, then society and the human race is doomed.

 

[calebprime]

My premise: Until the majority can see in himself both the insanity and the brainwashing of their society, then society and the human race is doomed.

My premise: Until the majority can see in themselves both the insanity and the brainwashing of their society, then the human race is doomed.


maybe just tighten it up a little, wordiness-wise.

 

[Justinian2]

My premise: Until the majority can see in themselves both the insanity and the brainwashing of their society, then the human race is doomed.


maybe just tighten it up a little, wordiness-wise.

Thanks.


I just got a picture of Mitt Romney in the mail. It's going to be put in the same place as my photo of Obama. Government propaganda really affects me.

 

[elbe]

Thanks.


I just got a picture of Mitt Romney in the mail. It's going to be put in the same place as my photo of Obama. Government propaganda really affects me.

You... you think political advertising is government propaganda?

 

[Justinian2]

You... you think political advertising is government propaganda?

People love to hear their candidate say: "God bless America, the greatest country on Earth!"

 

[elbe]

People love to hear their candidate say: "God Bless America, the Greatest Country on Earth!"

And you think that's propaganda? I'll be honest, I think you've got the entire scenario backwards: the politicians are pandering to what the masses want to hear, not what the government want them to think. The individual politicians are using the same amount of propaganda as the average actor submitting a headshot and resume for a new job; they're selling themselves.

 

[The Dark Lord]

Banzai Charge is the term used by the Allied forces to refer to Japanese human wave attacks mounted by infantry units. Impressed with how samurai were trained to commit suicide when a great humiliation was about to befall them, the government educated troops that it was a greater humiliation to surrender to the enemy than to die. (Some here would sacrifice the honor of their moniker than say "Thank you, I didn't know that". )

Note how government trained/educated the troops (their cult) to die rather than surrender. It seems a common characteristic of all governments that it's better to die than to lose. It's one of societies' brainwashing induced insanities. It was one of the efforts of Scientology to alleviate this type of insanity.

My premise: Until the majority can see in himself both the insanity and the brainwashing of their society, then society and the human race is doomed.

Cool story, bro.

Did LRon actually heal himself of war wounds that left him blind and crippled (wounds that never happened) using methods he invented and later described in Dianetics? Or did he just make the whole thing up?