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WTC7 and the girder walk-off between column 79 and 44

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(I never did check if the "Mitral" is the valve on the suction side of the pump. :blush: )

Mitral valve = valve between left atrium & left ventricle.

So it's the outlet valve for the left atrium & inlet for the left ventricle.

Technically there isn't any "suction" side. The atria fill passively. The diastolic pressure (between beats) is positive.

It's always bewildered me why the atria do not have one-way inlet valves. It strikes me as pretty inefficient. There may well be a reason for this (unknown to me), but it might as well be a case of "perfection is the enemy of good enough."

[Technically there is one valve - the Eustacian valve - at the insertion of the Inferior Vena Cava into the right atrium, but it atrophies & doesn't do anything after birth.]

When I build my genetically enhanced super-soldier army, this may be the first modification that I make. (Well, 2nd mod. After the Daryl Hannah pleasure models...)

The veins below the heart do have one way valves in them. But they are a significant distance away from the heart (way down in the external iliac & femoral veins), and the inferior vena cava is a pretty compliant vessel. I'm sure that it swells up during atrial systole (contraction).

The veins above the heart don't have valves (all the way up to the brain), and the right atrium fills by gravity. This is may be why (my speculation) you feel such pressure in your head when you do a head stand, but not so much in your legs when you stand up.
 
BTW, I kinda liked my post #3124, above.

This is what I get for putting a little eye-candy after a good one...
:eye-poppi
 
Mitral valve = valve between left atrium & left ventricle.

So it's the outlet valve for the left atrium & inlet for the left ventricle.

Technically there isn't any "suction" side. The atria fill passively. The diastolic pressure (between beats) is positive.

It's always bewildered me why the atria do not have one-way inlet valves. It strikes me as pretty inefficient. There may well be a reason for this (unknown to me), but it might as well be a case of "perfection is the enemy of good enough."

[Technically there is one valve - the Eustacian valve - at the insertion of the Inferior Vena Cava into the right atrium, but it atrophies & doesn't do anything after birth.]

When I build my genetically enhanced super-soldier army, this may be the first modification that I make. (Well, 2nd mod. After the Daryl Hannah pleasure models...)

The veins below the heart do have one way valves in them. But they are a significant distance away from the heart (way down in the external iliac & femoral veins), and the inferior vena cava is a pretty compliant vessel. I'm sure that it swells up during atrial systole (contraction).

The veins above the heart don't have valves (all the way up to the brain), and the right atrium fills by gravity. This is may be why (my speculation) you feel such pressure in your head when you do a head stand, but not so much in your legs when you stand up.
Thanks. My motto was "never let facts get in the way of a joke..." :)

Yup - I knew the meaning of "130 over 95" which caused me a problem with Army Reserve promotion at age 36 till I got on the meds. Been under med control for 35 years now. But I can never remember which is systolic and which is diastolic.

As for "...why the atria do not have one-way inlet valves. It strikes me as pretty inefficient." probably God wasn't a Mech Engineer. ;)

Then if you are right about "... why (my speculation) you feel such pressure in your head when you do a head stand, but not so much in your legs when you stand up." why don't us Aussies (and the Kiwis) have the problem most of the time? Wrong end of the world unless you accept the revised map:
upover4.jpg

...I was born in Yorkshire - and yes I have a version with US labelled with the rhyming slang for "Yanks".
 
Long term dead loads inside a building are insignificant because they are expected and accounted for by most engineers that do their jobs properly.
What I have to ask of you, is are you suggesting this statement to be true as well in conditions where dead loads, dangerously elevated temperatures, and the resulting thermal expansion on constrained structural conditions on top of that? Does your statement envelope all of that? If so, I'd like you to explain this, because your claim here does two things; It way oversimplifies the conditions you're directly arguing in your subsequent points, and whether or not you take these conditions into account dramatically changes the credibility of your claims. This gamble of yours to try and simplify the situation doesn't work.

The word you're looking for is gambit.

:dl:

Tony. The dubunkers know that the WTC7 and the girder walk-off between column 79 and 44 is pure nonsense. Their protection of the OTC
makes them just as guilty as the MSM.



http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8102880&postcount=35



Originally Posted by Christopher7 View Post
1) they applied 4 hours of heat at 1100[/font]oF but the fires only burned for 20 to 30 minutes in any location
2) they heated the entire area all at once but that is not what happened in the actual fire.
3) They applied that 4 hours of heat in 1.5 seconds giving a false result.
That did not allow the beams to sag which they would have done because the bottom flange would be hotter that the top flange. It also did not allow for heat dispersal thru the slab and to other structural members.
4) They heated the beam but not the slab to get the shear studs to fail. That gave a false, excessive temperature differential.
5) they lied about the width of the seat.

These were not carried forward but they are worth mentioning because they are fraudulent
6) once the bolts on the seat and top clip had broken there would be no axial restraint on the beams on that end so they would not buckle.
7) they left out the three short cross beams between the exterior wall and the northmost floor beam as well a one more between that beam and the next. It would not have buckled sideways but downward.
 
Tony. The dubunkers know that the WTC7 and the girder walk-off between column 79 and 44 is pure nonsense. Their protection of the OTC
makes them just as guilty as the MSM.


Yea, everybody who isn't in your cult is "guilty" aren't they Clayton? It's almost as if you think that the rest of the world gives a crap about what you and Tony believe.
 
I was ready to drop all of this, but Clayton brought it up again.

… blah, blah, blah…

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8102880&postcount=35

Christopher7 said:
1) they applied 4 hours of heat at 1100[/font]oF but the fires only burned for 20 to 30 minutes in any location
2) they heated the entire area all at once but that is not what happened in the actual fire.
3) They applied that 4 hours of heat in 1.5 seconds giving a false result. That did not allow the beams to sag which they would have done because the bottom flange would be hotter that the top flange. It also did not allow for heat dispersal thru the slab and to other structural members.
4) They heated the beam but not the slab to get the shear studs to fail. That gave a false, excessive temperature differential.
5) they lied about the width of the seat.

These were not carried forward but they are worth mentioning because they are fraudulent
6) once the bolts on the seat and top clip had broken there would be no axial restraint on the beams on that end so they would not buckle.
7) they left out the three short cross beams between the exterior wall and the northmost floor beam as well a one more between that beam and the next. It would not have buckled sideways but downward.

Let's see.
1) false
2) false
3) false
4) false
5) false
6) false
7) irrelevant

Have not every single one of these idiot statements not yet been answered in full?

Has C7 not retracted or corrected them?

Tony, you CLAIM to have allegiance to the truth. I'd like to see you demonstrate that in a simple, clear exercise.

You got an engineering degree at some time in the past. This statement I believe to be true.
(I had to figure some way around saying "you're an engineer". A statement that I no longer believe to be true.)

You claim to have read NIST's NCSTAR1-9.

You would go a long way (in my book, anyway) towards proving your honesty & engineering reading comprehension by correcting your compatriot's list of error after error.

Care to demonstrate your good faith, Tony.

Or will you demonstrate your disdain for the truth and leave the corrections to me?

tk
 
...
1) false
2) false
3) false
4) false
5) false
6) false
7) irrelevant
...
Has C7 not retracted or corrected them?

Tony, ... I'd like to see you demonstrate that in a simple, clear exercise.
...
You would go a long way (in my book, anyway) towards proving your honesty & engineering reading comprehension by correcting your compatriot's list of error after error.

Care to demonstrate your good faith, Tony.

Or will you demonstrate your disdain for the truth and leave the corrections to me?

tk

Seconded.
 
Seconded.

And just for the fun of it, I'd wager money here that Tony will NOT touch even a single one of C7's seven claims and declare it right or wrong. 10 US dollars via PayPal. First taker only, under one condition: If Tony takes the bet, he takes precedence. Hey Tony, easy money for you! All you need to do and pick at least one of C7s claims, tell us if you think it's right or wrong, give us a reasoned explanation for your decision, and the money is yours!
 
And just for the fun of it, I'd wager money here that Tony will NOT touch even a single one of C7's seven claims and declare it right or wrong. 10 US dollars via PayPal. First taker only, under one condition: If Tony takes the bet, he takes precedence. Hey Tony, easy money for you! All you need to do and pick at least one of C7s claims, tell us if you think it's right or wrong, give us a reasoned explanation for your decision, and the money is yours!

I actually don't have time for this type of ninny nonsense. It would seem like TFK would as, judging from the length of his posts and the number of posts I see him make here and on the Internet at large, there is no way he can have a fulltime engineering job like I do.
 
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Tony,

Can you explain something to me please? You posted this quote below. I am particularly interested in what I bolded:
Oystein, it has clearly been shown that the collapse initiation mechanism proposed in the NIST report for WTC 7, of a lateral walk-off of the girder between columns 44 and 79 at floor 13, is an impossible situation and could not have occurred. It is also clear that those who don't want to recognize this here have no basis for what they are saying.

Then you post this:
I did start the calculations again yesterday and would like to do it in a very accurate way. I layed out the girder, column 79, the 2" x 14" support plate, and bearing seat to get the exact distance from the corner of the girder flange to the flange on column 79. It is 1.08 inches. I have to do the same with the column 44 side today. The 547.625 inch long girder will expand 3.22 inches at the 500 degree C temperature NIST says it is at, so that is 1.61 inches per side. If column 44 has about the same amount of minimum clearance then there is about 0.53 inches of interference per side at the elevated temperature and the girder will bow some.

I will give your theory a fair hearing. I am going to do a finite element analysis over the next several days. Be patient.

1. Are you saying that your previous calculations were NOT as accurate as you thought?
2. If you are still doing calculations as of right now, how can you make the statement I bolded in the first quote above?
 
I actually don't have time for this type of ninny nonsense. It would seem like TFK would as, judging from the length of his posts and the number of posts I see him make here and on the Internet at large, there is no way he can have a fulltime engineering job like I do.

Bah - spoil-sport :rolleyes:

It would have taken less time to type "Claim [n] is wrong," and you'd be $10 richer if you had.

Dave
Indeed;)
Except of course I would have expected some sort of "a reasoned explanation".





Tony, the point is, your credibility, and that of your pals and movement, is at stake. Tfk's point is that you are fundamentally incapable or unwilling to EVER criticize a fellow truther.

That is the mark of a cult united by dogma.

Thanks for making that point for us so quickly.
ETA: I am genuinly amused to see how scared Tony is by tfk's modest challenge, and how even money can't make him try to be objective just once :D
 
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Tony, the point is, your credibility, and that of your pals and movement, is at stake.

And I thought the understatement was a speciallity of the Brits.

What has become of this world... what's next? Germans becoming world famous for their sense of humour?

:faint:
 
Yea, everybody who isn't in your cult is "guilty" aren't they Clayton? It's almost as if you think that the rest of the world gives a crap about what you and Tony believe.

So is Clayton finally going the FatFreddy88 route of "Everyone who disagrees with my conspiracy really does actually believe in it, they're just deliberately lying to keep up the front?"
 
I actually don't have time for this type of ninny nonsense.

Yeah, didn't think you'd take up the challenge.

Nice to know that you consider "presenting accurate information" to be "ninny nonsense".

The next time that you claim to be driven by an allegiance to the truth, expect to be reminded of this reply of yours.

It would seem like TFK would ...

Yeah, as a matter of fact, I do. Because the mistakes are so blatant & trivial.

... as, judging from the length of his posts and the number of posts I see him make here and on the Internet at large, there is no way he can have a fulltime engineering job like I do.

LoL. Back to this strawman again, Tony..?!!!
:rolleyes:

I thought we already settled this in this post.

But, I guess, if it's your BESTEST argument...
:D
 
Tell ya what, Tony.

I'll take the first two, and give you a 2nd chance to try some of the others.

BTW, the answers to 3 of the other 5 are contained within this reply.

Here goes...
___

Thank you Oystein. Your comment rang true enough that it caused me to go back and check it out. I don't know how I missed the significance of this but yours and Marks comments got me to see it a different way than I had been interpreting it:

Oystein pointed it out to you, and you pointed it out to me.

That is the value of these discussions.

1-9 Vol.1 pg 353
This analysis demonstrated possible failure mechanisms that were used to develop the leading collapse hypothesis further. The failure modes in this model were incorporated into the 16 story ANSYS and 47 story LS-DYNA analyses

Yes, this is what NIST says. But you are reading it incorrectly.

There were THREE models constructed: a preliminary FEA, the ANSYS model & the LS-DYNA model.

1. the preliminary FEA model: a static thermal / mechanical model of a single floor of the Northeast corner only.

The ONLY PURPOSE of this model was to help build the second model accurately. The first simple model helped the engineers determine which failure modes were likely (not definite!), and which components needed to be modeled in detail and which could be simplified.

This very simplified model ran for only 4 seconds (real time), and all the data needed for it came out in the first 3.

None of the failure modes or temperatures or effects seen in this model made any appearance in the final failure theory or summary.

2. the ANSYS model: a dynamic thermal & mechanical analysis of 16 lower floors.

The purpose of this model was to help determine the initiating event.

This model started with fires beginning in the SW corner of the building. It took about 3 hours (real time) for the fires to work their way around to the SE corner, and the rest of the results that are reported in NCSTAR1-9 start from the 3 hour mark.

The temperatures of all the components were determined by the FDS simulation. Nothing burned for any artificially long time, or at any artificially high temperatures.

3. the LS-DYNA model: a dynamic mechanical model (the thermal component was only to get the material properties correct at FDS calculated temps) of the whole building's response that started at the moment that c79 was unsupported. Note that all column buckling was calculated in this model.

The purpose of this model was to track the failure progression thru the building.

This model used the mechanical collapse output of the 2nd model (& temp profile from the FDS) as input, and then calculated the mechanical response of the building to the initiating mechanical failures thru total collapse.

All of the above is exactly appropriate for each failure analyses.
___

Reading about the 1st two models should show you that the failure modes found in the preliminary analysis were not "incorporated" (as in "shoe-horned") into the ANSYS & LS-DYNA analyses.

Rather, the information gained in the preliminary analysis guided "what to look for", or "what options in the final analyses to enable".

It told them, for example, that in the ANSYS model, they had to model the studs independently (they couldn't assume them fixed to the concrete), they had to model the bolts & welds & connectors, and they had to allow the beams & girders to rotate & buckle.

These are all choices that are made in any FEA. And the more of these choices that you allow, the larger your degrees of freedom & the more complex & longer your analysis time.

The proof that this is true is that the ANSYS & LS-DYNA failure modes (girder pushed off seats, for example) were completely different from the preliminary analysis failure modes (torsional buckling of c44-c79 girder). Also the temperatures used in the ANSYS & LS-DYNA models were much lower than those used in the preliminary model.

However, I see a problem with GIGO in the subsequent analyses. There are numerous fraudulent aspects in the "rock to the east" analysis.

There are precisely zero "fraudulent aspect" of the preliminary model. There is merely your ignorance of how engineers perform failure analyses.

The preliminary analysis (i.e., "Rock to the east" model) is irrelevant to the final conclusions. It simply informed the engineers which issues were significant issues and which issues were insignificant.

Note that the preliminary analysis was INTENDED to highlight, to exaggerate the effects that were likely to occur in this specific structure. So they intentionally select conditions that were extreme, to see what broke & how it broke.

The final failure mode analysis, the ANSYS model, used the results of the first model to determine which components had to be modeled in detail & which components could be simplified.

This is standard engineering failure analysis.
It is "fraudulent" only to the clueless.

The preliminary model was NOT the basis for their conclusions.
The final (ANSYS) model was the bases for their conclusions.

As they say explicitly:

NIST said:
The boundary conditions and temperatures were selected to create maximum shear forces on the stud connectors and beam and girder connections. Note that, in the detailed finite element analyses of the 16-story ANSYS model (see Chapter 11), no boundary conditions were applied to the floor slabs, and the temperatures of both the steel and concrete were derived from a thermal analysis based on fire dynamics calculations.
NCSTAR1-9 vol 1, pg 349

1) they applied 4 hours of heat at 1100oF but the fires only burned for 20 to 30 minutes in any location

This statement is simply false.
Nowhere in any NIST analysis was any temp set at 1000°F & held for 4 hours. I find it incredibly difficult to believe at this late date that someone hasn't already called you on this error / fabrication.

You are, accidentally or intentionally, conflating two different analyses.

1. In the preliminary analysis (which contributed nothing to the final failure causes):

a) they ramped the temperatures up from room temp to max temp over the course of about 2.5 seconds & watched the effects for around 4 seconds. They were looking at static response of the components, not dynamic response, so this technique is completely valid. (NCSTAR1-9, Fig 8-25)

b) the max beam temps ramped to 600°C (1100°F) & girder temps ramped to 500°C (930°F). This was a short cut and they intentionally set the temperatures too high for this preliminary analysis.

b) they only needed to perform about 3 seconds of analysis time before they got the information that they were after. (See Table 8-2). None of the failure modes discovered here were included in the final "what caused the collapse" summary.

2. In the ANSYS model (which were the basis for the final failure summary):

a) the temps in all components were calculated, the result of their Fire Dynamics Simulator, based on many local conditions such as office contents, fuel load, oxygen flows, etc. These temps were not set to exactly 500° (beams) or 600°C (girders), but rather ranged between 150° to 700°C, depending on time, location & fire conditions.

b) the 4 hours was from the start of the fire (in the SW corner) to the buckling of col 79. The heating in the Eastern side of the building did not start until 3 hours into the simulation, when the fires in the SE corner were just starting.

2) they heated the entire area all at once but that is not what happened in the actual fire.

Wrong in both cases.
In the preliminary case, they ramped up the temp over 2.5 seconds. This was a static analysis so the ramp time does not matter.

In the ANSYS case, they ramped the temp UP & DOWN, locally & dynamically, as calculated by the FDS software. To the best of this software's ability, this is exactly how fast, how long & how hot the temperatures actually rose in each modeled component in the building. With a couple of simplifying assumptions that were verified thru detailed thermal analysis.
___

There ya go, Tony.
Not terribly hard, is it?


tom
 
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I actually don't have time for this type of ninny nonsense.

Given that C7's claims require the application of > 2000 "charges" (of some kind) in a heavily occupied building, ahead of time, and assuming that fires would break out in that building on 9/11, then I think you're wise to describe them as "ninny nonsense". Credit where credit's due, after all.
 
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