Moderated Will the 2012 Olympic Games in London be held?

[Paul]

everyone is entitled to his or her beliefs and opinions, but no one is entitled to have his or her beliefs or opinions treated as if they were facts.

Agreed

I'm with Dawkins in the idea that religious beliefs deserve no special deference and should not be insulated from critical thinking.

Me too.

So, if you want to discuss them with other people, then you can't ask that they be afforded any special status.

Also agreed.


The point I was making is that it is needlessly aggressive and hostile to attack someone merely because they mentioned in passing that they have personal beliefs, especially if they are not promoting those beliefs or asking anyone else to agree with them.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

The point I was making is that it is needlessly aggressive and hostile to attack someone merely because they mentioned in passing that they have personal beliefs, especially if they are not promoting those beliefs or asking anyone else to agree with them.

You mean here on a skeptics forum?

Sorry, that sounds like you're saying that "personal beliefs" should be afforded some special status.

(Though I would make a very strong and stark distinction between attacking someone and attacking or challenging their beliefs, assertions or claims. There is no place for personal attacks.)

And frankly, in a way, I have more respect for people who really stand by their absurd religious beliefs (like PeaceCrusader) than people who espouse more mainstream (but equally absurd) religious beliefs but think they have a right to assert them without having them questioned, challenged or criticized.

[ETA: And I have the least respect for people who profess to have mainstream religious beliefs, including belief in all sorts of supernatural divine intervention in the natural world that happened centuries ago, or that happens in extremely select and subtle modern times--but who criticize someone like PeaceCrusader. There is no more or less reason to hold one set of irrational beliefs than another.]

Again, if they actually did keep their beliefs to themselves, the question is moot, since there is no such thing as mind reading.

IMO, the difference between a cult and a religion is mostly time.

 

[Astreja]

He's getting out the marrow in your backbone!

Aw, 'eck -- Now I have the "Apocalypse in 9/8" section of "Supper's Ready" by Genesis cued up and playing in My brain...

...Uh, wait a minute; I actually like that tune! Thanks, Jond!

 

[jond]

Aw, 'eck -- Now I have the "Apocalypse in 9/8" section of "Supper's Ready" by Genesis cued up and playing in My brain...

...Uh, wait a minute; I actually like that tune! Thanks, Jond!

There is never a bad time for that one to be stuck in your head. And, since Multivac started it, we should thank him/her profusely.

 

[dafydd]

Aw, 'eck -- Now I have the "Apocalypse in 9/8" section of "Supper's Ready" by Genesis cued up and playing in My brain...

...Uh, wait a minute; I actually like that tune! Thanks, Jond!

Long live sixth form rock!

 

[Explorer]

OK, can we please stop bashing Sabrina just because she holds personal spiritual beliefs.

Oh sorry, I must have joined the wrong website. I thought this was a skeptics forum.

I was addressing the argument not the poster, that is a rule that I adhere to. Unlike your trolling rather personal allegations against me.

Ho hum, there is always one on every forum.

 

[laca]

To put a slightly different spin on it: everyone is entitled to his or her beliefs and opinions, but no one is entitled to have his or her beliefs or opinions treated as if they were facts.

I'm with Dawkins in the idea that religious beliefs deserve no special deference and should not be insulated from critical thinking. So, if you want to discuss them with other people, then you can't ask that they be afforded any special status.

Of course, if beliefs really "remain private", the question is moot, isn't it?

How can they remain private when she claims to lead her life "the way my personal spiritual journey has led me"? I just don't see how.

 

[laca]

You mean here on a skeptics forum?

Sorry, that sounds like you're saying that "personal beliefs" should be afforded some special status.

(Though I would make a very strong and stark distinction between attacking someone and attacking or challenging their beliefs, assertions or claims. There is no place for personal attacks.)

And frankly, in a way, I have more respect for people who really stand by their absurd religious beliefs (like PeaceCrusader) than people who espouse more mainstream (but equally absurd) religious beliefs but think they have a right to assert them without having them questioned, challenged or criticized.

[ETA: And I have the least respect for people who profess to have mainstream religious beliefs, including belief in all sorts of supernatural divine intervention in the natural world that happened centuries ago, or that happens in extremely select and subtle modern times--but who criticize someone like PeaceCrusader. There is no more or less reason to hold one set of irrational beliefs than another.]

Again, if they actually did keep their beliefs to themselves, the question is moot, since there is no such thing as mind reading.

IMO, the difference between a cult and a religion is mostly time.

Good post, that's mostly how I feel about the issue as well.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

How can they remain private when she claims to lead her life "the way my personal spiritual journey has led me"? I just don't see how.

Exactly.

If the beliefs really remained private, there would be no question of attacking or challenging them. Such a thing would be impossible since mind reading doesn't exist.

 

[jond]

Long live sixth form rock!

Forever and ever. Amen.

 

[Explorer]

Thank you Paul. I appreciate your defense of my right to hold my own personal beliefs; it's nice to know that SOMEONE on this board accepts that.

Paul has suggested that I have been "Sabrina bashing". Please ignore him, as I have no interest in bashing you or anyone else, only your arguments, as I have tried to explain to him.

You are prefectly entitled to hold your personal beliefs, and I have no interest in them outside the context of Peace Crusader's posts. However, they have become public now on this forum, as you have used those beliefs to differentiate yourself from PC. Consequently, me or anyone else is entitled to quote your statements on your beliefs and make an argument.

If you choose to hold those beliefs that is your perogative. I do not share them, and on a skeptics site like this I will use them to illustrate a point, which I have done.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

As I said, I am only echoing what the Holy Spirit said. The prophecies are His and not mine.

7, 8 lay them straight

No. It is your claim that the Holy Spirit made this prophecy. You can't be so dishonest as to pretend this isn't your claim.

So again, when this proves to be wrong, will you simply admit that you were wrong? (Even in your terms, where the existence of a deity is unquestioned, you have claimed that an all powerful, all-knowing and all-compassionate deity made this prophecy, so if it fails, it couldn't possibly be the fault of the deity, right? It would have to be you who was wrong.)

 

[tsig]

Thank you Paul. I appreciate your defense of my right to hold my own personal beliefs; it's nice to know that SOMEONE on this board accepts that.

tsig, I've had no quarrel with you in the past, so I suggest this; why don't we drop this line of discussion, since it serves no purpose in the grand scheme of this thread, and move on, okay?

delete

 

[Akuma Tennou]

So your two thirds casualties includes the magic Chines super-army.

only if there's an equal proportion of men/women, as in the end there will be a man for ten women...
if the super-army is to be unleashed after the nuke war it will be the greatest fail in military history ever

 

[Paul]

Oh sorry, I must have joined the wrong website. I thought this was a skeptics forum.

It would appear that you misunderstood the meaning of sceptic, as well as leaving your manners behind.

I was addressing the argument not the poster, that is a rule that I adhere to.

Which would be why you insulted Sabrina, questioned her integrity, accused me of being a troll and played childish word games to try and insult my intelligence.

Unlike your trolling rather personal allegations against me.

Again with the accusations of trolling.

Ho hum, there is always one on every forum.

Still no addressing the argument, it must be hard to see from your high horse.

Paul has suggested that I have been "Sabrina bashing".

It's not all about you, it just happens to include you.

Please ignore him

"Oh sorry, I must have joined the wrong website. I thought this was a skeptics forum" where people could have their own opinions.

as I have no interest in bashing you or anyone else, only your arguments, as I have tried to explain to him.

Explain all you like, but please demonstrate as well.

I have no interest in them outside the context of Peace Crusader's posts.

Your posts make that seem decidedly disingenuous.

However, they have become public now on this forum, as you have used those beliefs to differentiate yourself from PC

That seems awfully like reaching for an excuse.

Consequently, me or anyone else is entitled to quote your statements on your beliefs and make an argument.

In context fine, but using them for blanket personal attacks is, at the very least, extremely rude.

If you choose to hold those beliefs that is your perogative.

That's awfully decent of you, I'm sure all people holding divergent views to yours will be duly relieved.

I do not share them, and on a skeptics site like this I will use them to illustrate a point, which I have done.

Illustrating a point that was needlessly antagonistic and unrelated to the actual thread.

 

[Paul]

only if there's an equal proportion of men/women

I hope you're not suggesting that the Chinese super radioactive zombie army has sexist conscription policies.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Six of one; half-a-dozen of the other.

I've lived in Hong Kong and Taiwan for 12 years before I moved to Thailand and have traveled extensively through China for more than 25 years. As such, I've probably read more about China than you've been able to find in Wikipedia or been told by some crazy blind woman.

Here try this one on for size.... the first legitimate article I found by googling. Note that it's from eight years ago. You can find hundreds of similar discussions of the count with all sorts of estimations. None agree with the official count of the government.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3993857.stm



And yet still more Christians than the entire population of the Philippines. And soon to probably surpass the Christian populations of all other countries, the way it's been growing.

You cite percentages when they're convenient and raw numbers when they'll suffice. The point we've been making is that your ridiculous romantic notion of a couple of persecuted individuals holding services in the Chinese version of The Catacombs is absurd. Fifty or seventy or ninety or one hundred thirty million is a huge number. And regardless of the number cited by various "experts", the one thing they all agree upon is that the Christian population is growing exponentially.



You found that on some website, right? It's word salad. You know nothing about China or the Chinese.

20120710.0555

@Foolmewunz, #1236

You call her a “crazy blind woman”? Did you know that she is in the Holy Bible? Matthew 24:41 says, “Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.” This is similar in Luke 17:35.

Who was taken? The Blessed Virgin Mary. When she “died”, Jesus took her body and soul to Heaven. It is called the Ascension. Then she assumed, called the Assumption, the title of “Queen of Heaven and Earth”. So she is in the spiritual world now. Who was left? It is this 73-year-old blind woman from Baliwag, Bulacan, Philippines who has been reincarnated. The first physical body where her spirit lived was called Reneliniyindi. Joan of Arc was one of them. It is her body that the Holy Spirit appropriates to talk to people. So what I believe is biblical.

Thank you for posting a link some eight years old. Do you think that the fast-growing 130,000,000 Chinese Christians are wrong? They may have grown under communist atheistic ideology. But look. The believers are growing in number, “exponentially” as you said. Something must be wrong in believing that there is no God, like in Confucianism and Taoism. That is why the Holy Spirit told us to pick out what is good and discard what is evil, using logic I guess.

I believe that the Chinese will be allowed to go out of China to kill by means of war. Then they will learn more about the Christian faith.

The Chinese call foreigners as barbarians - “outsiders” or “Lao Wai” as pointed out by Ms Chin-ning Chu. “The Asian Mind Game” is a book that I have. There is another term that the Chinese use to refer to these “barbarians”. Could you please help?

 

[dafydd]

. Could you please help?

Our kind of help is not the help that you need.

 

[Mojo]

32-20 Blues

Do you think that the fast-growing 130,000,000 Chinese Christians are wrong?

Yes.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

but you told that if the prophecy was to fail you'll be changing your allegiance. which of your lies should we pick up as the truth?
and no of course, the bible is the word of men y'know, nicene creed, 12 apostles only 4 gospels and stuff...

20120710.0705

@Akuma Tennou, #1235

I still believe that world peace can be achieved by believing in Jesus Christ. So if the prophecies of a nuclear World War III occurring on a Wednesday and the 2012 Olympic Games will not be held that the Holy Spirit revealed two months ago (2012-05) fail, I will remain as a Christian and continue to look for the only true Holy Spirit. And I will not forget apologizing to you that the prophecies were wrong. That is, if the prophecies fail. But I firmly believe that they will happen because they came from what I believe is the only true Holy Spirit.

You think that the Holy Bible is a lie? How did people know about the creation of the world and of man, about giants, about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? The only true God must have inspired those people who wrote Genesis and what Jesus said in the New Testament.

Who wrote the Nicene Creed? Men. The Holy Spirit taught us a correct version of it. Same with “Our Father”, “Hail Mary”, and “Glory Be”.

About the twelve apostles, the Holy Spirit told us that Jesus designated initially twelve of his followers as apostles. But one of them, Lebbaeus Thaddeus, lost faith in Jesus, so he quit. He was replaced by Judas son of James. They are two different individuals.