Truther responses to Millette WTC Dust paper

[chrismohr]

Re Oystein's post 104, I am in contact (at least unilaterally) with most of the signatories to the WTC dust study. I'm both informing them of our progress and asking for information etc. from many of them. Not all have responded, obviously. They certainly know what is going on as Oystein said.

 

[plague311]

I can't say I agree with Oystein, Sunstealer, and so on because of the technical aspect. I read it, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me until Oystein puts it in brothel terms. However, I agree with them on the grounds that I don't see anything that is done to make any difference.

I remember someone telling me that twoofers, on an average, have around a high school education. I, also, have a high school education. I will openly state a lot of this stuff is over my head, but I take time to research it. I just despise school so never decided to pursue higher education. Living in North Dakota provides you with plenty of jobs that you can make a great living at, some higher than 4 year degrees, with absolutely no secondary education.

Meaning, most twoofers coming here have no idea what's going on. They don't care to learn, and that's painfully obvious. I have no belief or faith that, no matter what the final outcome of this might be, a twoofer will care. Just my 2 cents

 

[chrismohr]

I'd like to see a qualified critique of the Harrit paper published as well. Truthers thus far are not aware of the paper's weaknesses - one of the reasons they keep insisting on a DSC from Dr Millette.

When I ask Jim Millette about about the DSC tests, he kind of agrees that if he does anything in this regard, it's to get an independent analysis of what Harrit et al have done first. From a scientific point of view, he doesn't see a point to the DSC tests, but I keep telling him that ignoring it is not a good idea; there needs to be some explanation or way of dealing with the inevitable negative response that will come from not dealing with it at all.

The whole exercise of looking for thermitic material is letting the "truthers" set the terms for the debate, which I know many people oppose. I've always done that anyway, and so far I've done it well, I think. I'm saying if we do this at all, let's do something about the DSC and the iron microsphere issues too. Maybe not a test, but at least not ignoring it completely.

 

[Oystein]

When I ask Jim Millette about about the DSC tests, he kind of agrees that if he does anything in this regard, it's to get an independent analysis of what Harrit et al have done first. From a scientific point of view, he doesn't see a point to the DSC tests, but I keep telling him that ignoring it is not a good idea; there needs to be some explanation or way of dealing with the inevitable negative response that will come from not dealing with it at all.

The whole exercise of looking for thermitic material is letting the "truthers" set the terms for the debate, which I know many people oppose. I've always done that anyway, and so far I've done it well, I think. I'm saying if we do this at all, let's do something about the DSC and the iron microsphere issues too. Maybe not a test, but at least not ignoring it completely.

If you want an expert opinon, the best could come from nanothermit experts Tillotson and Gash: If we had a PUBLIC statement from them that

• The didn't perform their DSC test under air
• It would be singularly STUPID to do it under air, since the samples contain 10% (real nt by T&G) and 70% (red layer of chips) hydrocarbons that burn in air

that would show the world once and for all that

• Farrer, Harrit, Jones are LIARS because they claimed they asked Tillotson when in fact they didn't
• DSC under air is NOT a competent test to prove thermite
• Their interpretation of the DSC curves as basically the same pattern as T&G's is dead WRONG

You seem, they say they did the DSC like T&G because they think it is a competent way of characterizing nanothermite.

Under air, it isn't.



So if I were you, I would call Alex Gash.

 

[ozeco41]

...The whole exercise of looking for thermitic material is letting the "truthers" set the terms for the debate, which I know many people oppose. I've always done that anyway, and so far I've done it well, I think. I'm saying if we do this at all, let's do something about the DSC and the iron microsphere issues too. Maybe not a test, but at least not ignoring it completely.

I am one of those who hold to the opposing view. However I have from the outset respected your right to choose the path you will follow and supported you in taking it. You have done an excellent job of advocacy and the inevitable nit-picks and shifting goal posts have emerged. From the expected parties.

That much said the difficulty will be in "drawing the line" and declaring "finis".

Because the truthers who count in this sort of debate will not let it go. No matter where you try to set the line the goalposts will be erected another leap further into trivia - most likely irrelevant minutiae. We have seen the whole thermXte debate arise as a degree more trivial debate than the real issue of claims of CD. Then iron microspheres another order more remote as a trivialising offshoot of thermXte. I have caricatured "where will the next leap take us -- into debating the colour of the left side of a microsphere?"

The trend is inexorable once we yield the choice of ground to the "enemy". I use that word because the other terminology and the inherent lessons come from the military. Don't fight on ground chosen by the enemy. Sound tactics.

Now in this situation it is not so "fatal". Not just the obvious reasons but the reality is that the evidence is overwhelmingly on "our side". The truthers are never going to win the main technical questions. There was no demolition at WTC. It was that plane at the Pentagon and the Shanksville crash was not a shoot down.

Drawing the line after DSC may be a reasonable choice. But expect to see the goalposts shift and make the big decision now "I/We will not chase the next set of goal posts." It will be easier to make that choice now when it is not clear where the goal posts will shift to. It will not be so easy once those goal posts are revealed and it is "just a little bit further so let's take that next little step - it's only a little bit further."

None of the foregoing should be seen as discouraging those who want to pursue the scientific issues for their inherent interest. The problem is that pure scientific pursuits in the setting of this forum tend to give the appearance of credibility to the claims of the truther/trolls.

 

[chrismohr]

If you want an expert opinon, the best could come from nanothermit experts Tillotson and Gash: If we had a PUBLIC statement from them that

• The didn't perform their DSC test under air
• It would be singularly STUPID to do it under air, since the samples contain 10% (real nt by T&G) and 70% (red layer of chips) hydrocarbons that burn in air

that would show the world once and for all that

• Farrer, Harrit, Jones are LIARS because they claimed they asked Tillotson when in fact they didn't
• DSC under air is NOT a competent test to prove thermite
• Their interpretation of the DSC curves as basically the same pattern as T&G's is dead WRONG

You seem, they say they did the DSC like T&G because they think it is a competent way of characterizing nanothermite.

Under air, it isn't.



So if I were you, I would call Alex Gash.

This is a great idea, and I will pass this on to Jim Millette.

 

[Miragememories]

"Well, my main interest, as I have already pointed out, is the vain prospect of getting our my theory confirmed. Incidentally, proving the LaClede theory destroys most of Harrit's theory."

Formatting fixes are mine. I just wanted it to be clear about the motivational issue.

"Well let's see, there's one sincere 9/11 truth activist who has written to me wondering if he's been wasting his time. The Czech guy Ivan referred to is a second. I don't know of any others. And by the way, the AE911 rebuttal is at least on a higher level than Kevin Ryan's pre-release ad hominem attacks.

The AE911 thing does convince me I need to keep pushing the DSC issue with Dr. Millette before he releases his final study. I agree it is not a scientific necessity once the chemical determination of no thermite is made, but it may be necessary just as a way of doing parallel research to the Harrit study."

Hmm. I thought that was what was promised from the beginning?

"Here are some things that came up in my most recent conversation with Dr. Jim Millette, who is already well along in his study of the WTC dust:

1.) His intention is to replicate the tests done in the Bentham study.

9.) The basis of science is to do research and have someone reproduce that research, which he will do with the Harrit paper. He will be following what Niels Harrit et al says he believes these chips have.

I have asked him everything people have asked me to ask, unless I forgot something."

"I would also point out that NIST did a Differential Thermal Analysis (DTA), which sems to be similar to DSC, and it also showed an exothermic peak around 400ºC.

(NIST NCSTAR 1-3C Appendix D)"

Meanwhile months later;

"When I ask Jim Millette about about the DSC tests, he kind of agrees that if he does anything in this regard, it's to get an independent analysis of what Harrit et al have done first. From a scientific point of view, he doesn't see a point to the DSC tests, but I keep telling him that ignoring it is not a good idea; there needs to be some explanation or way of dealing with the inevitable negative response that will come from not dealing with it at all.

The whole exercise of looking for thermitic material is letting the "truthers" set the terms for the debate, which I know many people oppose. I've always done that anyway, and so far I've done it well, I think. I'm saying if we do this at all, let's do something about the DSC and the iron microsphere issues too. Maybe not a test, but at least not ignoring it completely."

This DSC testing which Chris deceptively lead us to believe would be performed as part of Dr. Millette's initial investigation, now appears to be a Pandora's Box.

MM

 

[GlennB]

This DSC testing which Chris deceptively lead us to believe would be performed as part of Dr. Millette's initial investigation, now appears to be a Pandora's Box.

There was no "deception". Millette established it would have been a waste of time, and this has been discussed in depth already. Perhaps Chris simply didn't anticipate that Millette would come up with what he did and in what order?

Meanwhile you're making it 100% of current Truther residents here who are clutching at any straw, no matter how small, in a desperate effort to keep your beliefs afloat.

 

[Tezro]

Formatting fixes are mine. I just wanted it to be clear about the motivational issue.



Hmm. I thought that was what was promised from the beginning?





Meanwhile months later;



This DSC testing which Chris deceptively lead us to believe would be performed as part of Dr. Millette's initial investigation, now appears to be a Pandora's Box.

MM

MM-
If you think Chris' statements were deceptive, I wonder if you'd give your opinion on this quote from the Active Thermitic Materials paper:

The Gash report describes FTIR spectra which
characterize this energetic material. We have performed
these same tests and will report the results elsewhere.

Did they perform the tests or not, and where are the results, 3 years later?

Also, duly noted that you cast aspersions on Oystein's motivations, (which he himself acknowledges), without in the least engaging with the substance of his criticisms of Farrer's DSC testing.

 

[Oystein]

Not a truther, but while googling for something else, by coincidence I stumbled about this post at LiveLeak, which extensively copied a post I made somewhere here:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=015_1330900552

 

[ozeco41]

Not a truther, but while googling for something else, by coincidence I stumbled about this post at LiveLeak, which extensively copied a post I made somewhere here:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=015_1330900552

Your fame is spreading. Don't let it go to your head. Remember us lesser mortals.

 

[fourtoe]

James B. ("Brainster" at JREF, if I am not mixing things up), already wrote a short reply: http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2012/03/something-left-unsaid.html

Here I can fill in my expertise: James B is James Bennett who is JamesB on this forum. Brainster is the poster Pat at SLC...I would not be surprised if there was a CT out there already claiming that they are both the same NWO operative though .

I don't know how realistic that is. I can say that among the Truthers of the Ron Paul Revolution, some of whom are AE9/11T members and supporters, not one has breathed a word about this. I doubt almost any of them are even aware of this debate. I doubt almost any of them will ever become aware of the debate. Over on the Let's Roll Forum, an attempt to get discussion of these results going by a member using the name TruthMakesPeace (by the way, I'm wondering if you know TruthMakesPeace in the real world) has had almost no response.

Again it seems like the only Truthers I might be able to discuss this stuff with will be online and not in irl. It seems like the only thing I have to talk about with Truthers irl is whether or not the Jews are in on it.
le sigh.

This DSC testing which Chris deceptively lead us to believe would be performed as part of Dr. Millette's initial investigation, now appears to be a Pandora's Box.

This to me shows how desperate Truthers are now, Chris Mohr is an ****** saint! The only criticism I would give him is that he is too nice, though that still didn't effect his devastation of Richard Gage in their debate oh so long ago.

I just want to be clear, you're gonna donate money to help fund the DSC testing, right? I know another Truther on this board is going to, have you already stated that you are as well, guy?

 

[Scott Sommers]

Again it seems like the only Truthers I might be able to discuss this stuff with will be online and not in irl. It seems like the only thing I have to talk about with Truthers irl is whether or not the Jews are in on it.
le sigh.

You mean they're not talking about what's going on now that they now there was no thermite used? It's too bad they're missing out on the biggest news to hit Truth World since Tracy Blevins found a rock in an elevator shaft.

 

[NoahFence]

MM's got nothing left in him but character assasination.

Chris Mohr would do well just to put that child on ignore and forget he even exists. He's got nothing of substance to add to the discussion.

 

[Oystein]

Just for your information: I have a new blog post for you to persuse concerning Mark Basile's "confirmation" of Harrit e.al.:

How Mark Basile confirms that red-gray chips are not thermitic

I think it is appropriate to advertise this here as part of the general truther reactions to any criticism of Harrit e.al. is "but Mark Basile confirmed it!"


If you want to discuss this, you can do that in the appropriate thread, where I added a bit of summary:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8121557#post8121557

 

[Poetry Hound]

Mainstream media cover-up

How do truthers explain the mainstream media's cover-up of Jim Millette's study?

1. Everyone's waking up and the MSM is slowly switching to the truther side.

2. The MSM wants to keep ANY discussion of 9/11 conspiracy theory under wraps.

3. The Jews haven't yet given the go-ahead to the MSM.

 

[GlennB]

How do truthers explain the mainstream media's cover-up of Jim Millette's study?

1. Everyone's waking up and the MSM is slowly switching to the truther side.

2. The MSM wants to keep ANY discussion of 9/11 conspiracy theory under wraps.

3. The Jews haven't yet given the go-ahead to the MSM.

A mysterious post indeed. But welcome to the forum

The MSM don't give a flying fart about the whole business, Harrit et al onwards. If they did look into it, they'd laugh.

 

[NoahFence]

How do truthers explain the mainstream media's cover-up of Jim Millette's study?

1. Everyone's waking up and the MSM is slowly switching to the truther side.

2. The MSM wants to keep ANY discussion of 9/11 conspiracy theory under wraps.

3. The Jews haven't yet given the go-ahead to the MSM.

I'll ask you, as I've asked quite a few folks in recent weeks:

What happened that caused you to return to JREF?

Haven't posted in over a year, before then, over a year, before then, a year and a half.

Very curious posting history.

 

[Sunstealer]

GlennB and NoahFence - I think you haven't spotted that Poetry Hound's post is tongue in cheek.

 

[carlitos]

Seconded. We have a handful of long-time posters that mostly lurk. I read that as sarcastic. And funny.