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Truther responses to Millette WTC Dust paper

ref: As for AE911Truth, you are right: they will not change at least their "official opinion", since they cannot. This is a kind of business for them, among others.
But in the case of other, more sincere truthers, it seems to me that Jim Millette study has already started to have some influence on them. They look quite confused now (at least some of them):cool:
 
This is a nice periodic table to use as reference in EDX. It lists the K,L and M peaks of all elements(though not their relative intensity):
http://www.edax.com/literature/periodic.aspx

The K peaks of Sr do show at 14.1 and 15.8 KeV (I guess you will need 30 or more KeV). But you should be able to see the L peaks in the 1.8 - 2.2 region

ETA: If you don't, maybe the concentration is just too low to be seen.

Hey Julio, as Ivan pointed out, the Sr-peak at 1.81 keV is masked by the much higher Si-peak at 1.74 keV. I illustrated exactly how in my thread:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8115313&postcount=2174

Thanks for the link to that periodic table! Nice to have it on one page.
I usually look up Edge levels on http://csrri.iit.edu/periodic-table.html which is also missing intensities. But I have the McCrone Particle Atlas Vol. III on my desk, it has a table with intensities, and additionally a reverse lookup table (Edge energies sorted by energy instead of by atomic number).
 
ref: As for AE911Truth, you are right: they will not change at least their "official opinion", since they cannot. This is a kind of business for them, among others.
But in the case of other, more sincere truthers, it seems to me that Jim Millette study has already started to have some influence on them. They look quite confused now (at least some of them):cool:

Really? I'm surprised to hear that anyone is left with this impression. Honestly, how many verified cases of this 'confusion' do you have? Two? Three? Fifty? I'm not following this very carefully, but why do you say this?
 
Hi Ivan, I know about your bizarre hobby :)

My comment was mainly directed to Oystein, who on SLC wrote: "Someone needs to tell Richard Gage, Kevin Ryan and all the good men at ae911t that there is NOT ONE WTC PRIMER BUT AT LEAST TWO!"

I just wanted to point out once more, that no matter who tells those people what, it doesn't affect them at all. It is of no use then to even point out where they have mistaken, or whre they have taken a wrong approach, because they just don't care. Neither should us. :)

Well, my main interest, as I have already pointed out, is the vain prospect of getting our theory confirmed. Incidentally, proving the LaClede theory destroys most of Harrit's theory.

Now, we do notice already that they are reading this very thread: SnowCrash (according to Ivan a main guy behind 911blogger?) has quoted us, and he has carried some questions directly to Frank Legge and Steven Jones. I know Chris is in contact with Richard Gage and Kevin Ryan, and at least writing to Jeff Farrer. Others I know are talking personally with Niels Harrit. So we know for a fact that the message arrives there - it will by the end of this month have reached at least 5 of the 9 authors of the Bentham and the leader of their primary business outfit, AE911T. This time we can document it: They must be keenly aware of the evidence, and of the inevitable conclusions, and yet they ignore it.

I think this is not without consequences: More and more of ae911t's have growing suspicions about the Harrit paper. Even Niels Harrit himself has recently called their paper "a mere footnote", indicating that he considers its relevance to be minimal. Steven Jones has made it clear that he no longer intends to defend it. I think "Active Thermitic Material..." will eventually get abandoned by these people, never to be resurrected.

At the same time, we observe how Gage and Ryan are desperately trying to find new audiences to sell their woo to, even turning to such blatantly non-professional and woo-prone groups like Nation of Islam - and even there they fail! Look at the active "Juggernaut" thread: With every quarter year that passes, with ever month even, support for ae911t decreases, as measured by fewer and fewer new signatures, and failure to reach even modest financial goals through donations.

It filled me with glee to see they pulled back a post by ScootleRoyale about the Millette report at Debunking the Debunkers shortly after I gave it a sound smackdown earlier in this thread. See, they are reading, and probably notice how foolish they must sound.


Perhaps we need not do anything, perhaps they'll sink into even greater obscurity without us. But it sure is one hell of fun to try and help it along :p
 
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Hey Julio, as Ivan pointed out, the Sr-peak at 1.81 keV is masked by the much higher Si-peak at 1.74 keV. I illustrated exactly how in my thread:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8115313&postcount=2174

Thanks for the link to that periodic table! Nice to have it on one page.
I usually look up Edge levels on http://csrri.iit.edu/periodic-table.html which is also missing intensities. But I have the McCrone Particle Atlas Vol. III on my desk, it has a table with intensities, and additionally a reverse lookup table (Edge energies sorted by energy instead of by atomic number).

You should at least see a peak broadening. A proper fitting would reveal it. On the other hand, you still have some other L lines closer to 2 KeV. Problem is I don't know their relative intensities respect to L alpha, so I guess they are just too weak to be seen.
 
Really? I'm surprised to hear that anyone is left with this impression. Honestly, how many verified cases of this 'confusion' do you have? Two? Three? Fifty? I'm not following this very carefully, but why do you say this?
Well let's see, there's one sincere 9/11 truth activist who has written to me wondering if he's been wasting his time. The Czech guy Ivan referred to is a second. I don't know of any others. And by the way, the AE911 rebuttal is at least on a higher level than Kevin Ryan's pre-release ad hominem attacks.

The AE911 thing does convince me I need to keep pushing the DSC issue with Dr. Millette before he releases his final study. I agree it is not a scientific necessity once the chemical determination of no thermite is made, but it may be necessary just as a way of doing parallel research to the Harrit study.
 
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The AE911 thing does convince me I need to keep pushing the DSC issue with Dr. Millette before he releases his final study. I agree it is not a scientific necessity once the chemical determination of no thermite is made, but it may be necessary just as a way of doing parallel research to the Harrit study.

I still advise strongly against it, as long as they don't understand that

- Harrit, Jones, Farrer analysed several different kinds of chips
- Millette has severaly different kinds of chips
- There are several different kinds of primers in the towers
- Farrer gave us no idea just what material he put in the DSC

I suggest we promise to try and do a DSC test only on the condition that at least one of the main authors concedes all four of these points. Otherwise, it is clear already how they will react:
  • If Millettes results are different: "Millette studies the wrong material, it's irrelevant" Or "Millette is a fraud"
  • If Millettes results are similar: "Debunkers confirm thermitic nature of chips!"
Don't you agree?

Only if they agree first, in writing, that they concede that they may have looked at different kinds of chips, and (!!!) that they don't know (or have kept secret!!!) which kind they measured in the DSC, then it will be clear that it doesn't matter if Millette's results are different or same - Millette will be the first who does the DSC test right.
 
I would also point out that NIST did a Differential Thermal Analysis (DTA), which sems to be similar to DSC, and it also showed an exothermic peak around 400ºC.

(NIST NCSTAR 1-3C Appendix D)
 
You should at least see a peak broadening. A proper fitting would reveal it. On the other hand, you still have some other L lines closer to 2 KeV. Problem is I don't know their relative intensities respect to L alpha, so I guess they are just too weak to be seen.

And you do see - just follow the link I provided:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8115313&postcount=2174

I would also point out that NIST did a Differential Thermal Analysis (DTA), which sems to be similar to DSC, and it also showed an exothermic peak around 400ºC.

(NIST NCSTAR 1-3C Appendix D)

Yes, but that as done on weld metal, not on paint, and apparently involves energies much lower than those from chemical reactions.
See Table D-6 (page 158 of PFD), and accompanying text om page 435 / page 149 of the PFD file.
 
Well let's see, there's one sincere 9/11 truth activist who has written to me wondering if he's been wasting his time. The Czech guy Ivan referred to is a second. I don't know of any others. And by the way, the AE911 rebuttal is at least on a higher level than Kevin Ryan's pre-release ad hominem attacks.

The AE911 thing does convince me I need to keep pushing the DSC issue with Dr. Millette before he releases his final study. I agree it is not a scientific necessity once the chemical determination of no thermite is made, but it may be necessary just as a way of doing parallel research to the Harrit study.

I'd like to see a qualified critique of the Harrit paper published as well. Truthers thus far are not aware of the paper's weaknesses - one of the reasons they keep insisting on a DSC from Dr Millette.
 
I'd like to see a qualified critique of the Harrit paper published as well. Truthers thus far are not aware of the paper's weaknesses - one of the reasons they keep insisting on a DSC from Dr Millette.

I am in the process of writing a series of blog posts that each focus on one particular weakness of ATM (Harrit e.al.). The critique of the DSC test alone will be lengthy as there is not just one or two things wrong with it, but many.
 
The AE911 thing does convince me I need to keep pushing the DSC issue with Dr. Millette before he releases his final study. I agree it is not a scientific necessity once the chemical determination of no thermite is made, but it may be necessary just as a way of doing parallel research to the Harrit study.
I echo Oystein's thoughts on this.

We know that Millette's chips with EDX spectra identical to samples a-d in the Harrit et al paper are primer paint.

We know samples a-d are primer paint. 3 years ago I did the analysis and came to the conclusion that kaolin was present and that the gray layer was steel.

If you read the truther responses you will see that some of them consider Millette's work to actually debunk the primer paint hypothesis simply because his chips that match Harrit's chips are not Tnemec Red 99.

We already know that both sets are not Tnemec Red 99. Truthers do not seem to understand this. Truthers do not even acknowledge that LaClade joist primer paint was used even though we have shown the relevant documentation. Here it is again

picture.php


Truthers think that only one red paint was used in the whole of the WTC complex.

These are simple ideas that have been explained over and over and over yet they still refuse to acknowledge the fact that more than one red primer paint was used in the WTC.

Truthers believe that this

picture.php


is the same as this

picture.php


They will quote this as proof

Prior to soaking the chip in MEK an XEDS spectrum was
acquired from an area of the red-layer surface. The resulting
spectrum, shown in Fig. (14), produced the expected peaks
for Fe, Si, Al, O, and C. Other peaks included calcium, sulfur,
zinc, chromium and potassium. The occurrence of these
elements could be attributed to surface contamination due to
the fact that the analysis was performed on the as-collected
surface of the red layer. The large Ca and S peaks may be
due to contamination with gypsum from the pulverized wallboard
material in the buildings.
Harrit et al page 17.

even though it's wrong. You will be able to see particles of contaminant on the surface using the SEM. Truthers don't understand how a SEM works and what it's capable of achieving.

When you show them this (Fig 14, Harrit et al v Tnemec Red 99 from Jones)

picture.php


they run and hide.

Secondly as Oystein points out, we have no idea which chips Farrer used in the DSC tests. Harrit et al considered ALL red chips to be the same material even though their own data shows this is not correct.

There is absolutely no point in performing DSC on Millette's chips (which match samples a-d) unless we know what the hell we are comparing them with!

We all know what will happen if the DSC curve for Millette's samples isn't an exact match for the 4 curves in Harrit et al. Truthers will scream until they are sick that the curves don't match and that this is proof that Millette is a shill/fraud/liar, that Jones did have super nano-thermite, that the JREFers were afraid of the test and the glorious knights of the truth movement outed them all, etc etc.

Stop allowing the truthers to dictate.

We, as well as the truthers, know that Harrit et al carried out FTIR but did not include the results in the paper. Why not?

We know that Harrit et al carried out TEM XRD studies but have not published the data. Why not?

It's time for the truthers to apply the same level of criticism to Harrit et al as they do to Millette's work. Why aren't the truthers doing more to get Harrit et al to release their FTIR and TEM data?

I suggest you forget about DSC until further data from Harrit et al is forthcoming. The ball is in their court.
 
Otherwise, it is clear already how they will react:
  • If Millettes results are different: "Millette studies the wrong material, it's irrelevant" Or "Millette is a fraud"
  • If Millettes results are similar: "Debunkers confirm thermitic nature of chips!"
Don't you agree?

Exactly. Try to bear this in mind, Chris. Moreover, the similar "results" can be expected in the case of these "iron-microspheres" in the red chips ash after burning:
- If Millette does not find microspheres: "Millette studies the wrong material, it's irrelevant" Or "Millette is a fraud"
- If Millettes finds microspheres: "Debunkers confirm thermitic nature of chips!"

Enough is enough. Idiots, who are not able to understand that kaolinite REALLY can not be active "substitute" of elemental aluminum in thermites, does not deserve any more research:rolleyes:
If you want, gather some more money, Chris, but truthers should pay for those additional DSC experiments and analysis.
I am willing to pay only for the proof of strontium now:cool:
 
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Well let's see, there's one sincere 9/11 truth activist who has written to me wondering if he's been wasting his time. The Czech guy Ivan referred to is a second. I don't know of any others. And by the way, the AE911 rebuttal is at least on a higher level than Kevin Ryan's pre-release ad hominem attacks.

The AE911 thing does convince me I need to keep pushing the DSC issue with Dr. Millette before he releases his final study. I agree it is not a scientific necessity once the chemical determination of no thermite is made, but it may be necessary just as a way of doing parallel research to the Harrit study.

I'm not sure that an estimate of the number of Truthers touched by this discussion is a topic worth pursuing. But I presume the implication of this post is that the 2 names you are able to supply are just the tip of some growing iceberg of influence.

I don't know how realistic that is. I can say that among the Truthers of the Ron Paul Revolution, some of whom are AE9/11T members and supporters, not one has breathed a word about this. I doubt almost any of them are even aware of this debate. I doubt almost any of them will ever become aware of the debate. Over on the Let's Roll Forum, an attempt to get discussion of these results going by a member using the name TruthMakesPeace (by the way, I'm wondering if you know TruthMakesPeace in the real world) has had almost no response. And n the meantime, regular members of the forum are continuing with their posts about how actors were pretending to be firefighters and here or how no one really jumped from the burning WTC towers.

While this may be a great chance for our local JREF experts to polish up their thermite game, the only place I see anyone talking about this is here.
 
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...
We, as well as the truthers, know that Harrit et al carried out FTIR but did not include the results in the paper. Why not?

We know that Harrit et al carried out TEM XRD studies but have not published the data. Why not?

It's time for the truthers to apply the same level of criticism to Harrit et al as they do to Millette's work. Why aren't the truthers doing more to get Harrit et al to release their FTIR and TEM data?

I suggest you forget about DSC until further data from Harrit et al is forthcoming. The ball is in their court.

Exactly.

In addition, I think a necessary prerequisite for any "repitition" of the DSC tests ids that we get, in writing, from at least one of the major authors of the Bentham paper (Jones, Harrit, Farrer or Ryan), that he acknowledges all of the following points:
  1. There was at least potentially more than one kind of red-gray chips in their Bentham paper(1)
  2. There very probably are different kinds of red-gray chips in Millette's study
  3. There is not only one, but at least two (and quite likely more) red steel primers on major compoments of the WTC structural steel, and that therefore, Harrit's correct proof that chips (a)-(d) are not Tnemec does NOT imply these chips are not primer - they could be LaClede Standard primer(2), or some other paint.
  4. They did not know, or kept secret, the chemical signature of the four chips on which they published DSC data. Unless they tell us the chemical signature of these chips, it is impossible to repeat the test, as point 2. shows that there is almost certainly more than one candidate.
At the very least, we need to get them to acknowledge that they are aware of these claim, each one of them. I think they'll even avoid that modest level of honesty.

Chris, I think it is vitally important that you understand why a repetition of an such experiment is useless, when you don't know which stuff to do it upon(3). The result, whatever it is, cannot possibly be compared, and no conclusion can possibly reached, without first knowing the details of what they actually did in the first place. If you just go ahead and do something, then I will bett you $1000 that the result will be spun, and you will have gained nothing(4).



-------------
Footnotes:
(1) See my blog: Why red-gray chips aren't all the same
(2) See my blog: Another primer at the WTC: LaClede Standard Primer
(3) Let me try to illustrate this with an analogy: Suppose Jeff Farrer had gone to 666 Bourbon Street in New Aeleans and slept with a very attractive (not to a magnetm but to men) red-headed woman. He writes a paper and explains that this red-headed woman will orgasm after about 430 seconds, he has tried that four times and measured it with a stop clock. And he claims that this somehow proves this women is from a secret Kibbuz in Israel, because he has read somewhere about another lady who was from Israel and orgasmed after 540 seconds. An argument ensues, we doubt that this woman is Israeli. How can we check this? For starters, watching a stop clock during sex is not a competent method to determine the nationality a woman. But Farrer's friends insist that it is and you are only too wimpy too try it yourself. So you travel to New Aeleans (costs you money!), and you find that 666 Bourbon Street is a brothel (costs you more money) and that they have several red-headed ladies on offer! Farrer must have been unaware that he was in a brothel and perhaps thought there was only one red-head. So, unfortunately, Farrer forgot to write down his lady's name or any other information you could have used to identify her (other than that she is red-headed and attracted to men). So what will you do: Sleep with any random red-head? Or sleep with all red-heads that happen to be in the house as you visit? What will you do with the results? Suppose you find a lady who also has (or rather fakes) an orgasm after 7 minutes - is she then the same Farrer slept with? If your lady orgasms sooner or later or not at all, does that mean that Farrer's lady is from Israel, or not?
(4) For once, this bet is not meant serious. Not because I am not sufficiently convinced I would win, but because the criteria to tell who has won can't be described precisely enough. Where does "spin" start, and what constitutes "gain"? Such criteria are necessarily subjective, and cannot be the object of an honest bet
 
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(3) Let me try to illustrate this with an analogy: Suppose Jeff Farrer had gone to 666 Bourbon Street in New Aeleans and slept with a very attractive (not to a magnetm but to men) red-headed woman. He writes a paper and explains that this red-headed woman will orgasm after about 430 seconds, he has tried that four times and measured it with a stop clock. And he claims that this somehow proves this women is ... whatever, under 5'6" tall. An argument ensues, we doubt that this woman is under 5'6" tall. How can we check this? For starters, watching a stop clock during sex is not a competent method to determine the height of a women. But Farrer's friends insist that it is and you are only too wimpy too try it yourself. So you travel to New Orleans (costs you money!), and you find that 666 Bourbon Street is a brothel (costs you more money) and that they have several red-headed ladies on offer! Farrer must have been unaware that he was in a brothel and perhaps thought there was only one red-head. So, unfortunately, Farrer forgot to write down his lady's name or any other information you could have used to identify her (other than that she is red-headed and attracted to men). So what will you do: Sleep with any random red-head? Or sleep with all red-heads that happen to be in the house as you visit? What will you do with the results? Suppose you find a lady who also has (or rather fakes) an orgasm after 7 minutes - is she then the same Farrer slept with? If your lady orgasms sooner or later or not at all, does that mean that Farrer's lady is taller or shorter than 5'6"?

Yes...yes...this is exactly the problem. It is the problem I was referring to in the statement that jaydeehess now uses in his signature (and by the way jay, thank you very much),

That Truthers go about 'measuring' things without any system that would allow comparison points to their failure in performing formal operations. In a way, it's a kind of folk science of the events of 9/11. Without any way to produce data that's comparable either with scientific data or with the data of other Truther so-called 'scientists', it appears upon a systematic inspection to be just a mass of statements connected by a rhetoric.

And now these guys are pretending to do experiments? Who cares what they say they've found? It's all a big joke. Anyone who can believe this 9/11 Truth stuff - at any level - doesn't need evidence to believe anything. They don't need properly conducted experimentation. They don't need proper control or real measurement. They just have belief. Jones and Harriat or Jim Millett, the science involved is beyond almost anyone here, so what was it that they believed in the first place? And why would another bunch of statements that they can't understand change their mind? At least Phil Jayhan at Let's Roll is consistent that he doesn't believe anything he can't understand. Too bad he's so stupid.
 
Some threads on Above Top Secret:

ATS: WTC Dust Study Confirms: No Thermite!
ATS: Finally there is an independent investigation, and not a word about it on ATS?


Dang, I thought I had more, but ... have to run...

I went through some of these posts when they were referred to in an earlier post here about how positively these findings were being received by conspiracy advocates. I did not find this to be the case. Many of the comments that are accepting of Millett's findings came from conspiracy critics, either from the JREF or elsewhere. I saw no evidence at all of Truthers being concerned by these results. Admittedly I have not really looked at this very diligently, but as far as I can tell, the only Truther troubled by all this is Chris Mohr's personal friend.

I know we're not supposed to talk like this; it ruins all the fun. This whole idea that you can sort this 9/11 conspiracy out with an experiment is weird. The idea makes no sense and there never was any reason to believe in it - in its thermite version or any other way. It wouldn't matter to me if Jim Millette came back and said "Holy carroly Batman, that WTC dust is full of thermite." The WTC towers were brought down by airplanes and fire, and that's all.

I know this opinion is shared by many of the people here on the JREF and by scientists all over the world. But as I have said before, I am left with the impression that if that had happened, Chris Mohr might be the next new member of AE9/11T.

I suspect that for many Truthers, this whole charade has only fortified their belief in the Jones & Harriat fiasco. The idea that a legitimate scientist is "replicating" their study means that the original study must have been done correctly. I know nothing about thermite, but Oystein's words on this certainly don't surprise me. In my life, I have never imagined such a pile of crap as 9/11 Truth. I suppose Holocaust denial is even a bigger pile of crap - but just barely.
 
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This seems like a lot of trouble for the truthers to go through, considering that the best they can hope for is that their beliefs will be viewed as "mostly nonsense" rather than "complete and utter nonsense".
 

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