My anecdotal claims

[slingblade]

When you wake up from a dream, how do you know that you aren't simply wrapped in another dream?

When you exit Plato's cave, how do you know that you aren't simply entering another cave? One big enough for the stars..?

You asked about the relevance of the Matrix. It's simple. The Matrix is based on the Monomyth pattern which is in turn derived from the universal mystic pattern. As a result The Matrix is a mystical metaphor. Neo is a mystic, by sloppy Hollywood analogy.

The Hero With a Thousand Faces is a standard part of Hollywood, thanks in part to Lucas. So as a result many movies are mystical metaphors but people don't really realize it.

Ya know, if we were face-to-face right now, my tone of voice would be inflected so as to make you sit up, take notice, and hopefully feel a little trepidation.

You aren't the only one who has studied Campbell. You seem, however, to be one of the few who think you've stumbled onto a little-known, esoteric, and mystical secret.

So let me take a little wind out of your sails:

The Monomyth is present in 99% of all the stories humans tell, and have ever told. It's been "present in Hollywood" ever since Hollywood was a scrubby patch.

It wasn't at all "thanks to Lucas." He had not a damned thing to do with it.

Have you never seen the Wizard of Oz? Do you have no notion that Dorothy is a perfect Hero archetype? And that the film was made five years before Lucas was even born? Never mind how much older the books themselves are...

Professor Campbell was in no way a High Priest of the Mythical. He was an excellent mythologist. But he wasn't creating and forming his own religion for mass consumption.

You make a mockery of what the man spent his life studying. You try to cast him as an L. Ron Hubbard-type of mass-produced commercial messiah.

You cheapen his legacy.

You need to stop.

 

[tsig]

When Neo was first freed from the Matrix, how did he know that he was not simply wrapped up in another Matrix?

That was fiction, just like the books you're pushing.

Apparently the ability to tell fact from fiction is not one that mystics have.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Thank you, sling. Bravo.

 

[tsig]

Limbo
I've tried asking people on other forums what a 'higher level of consciousmness is', but no answers have been forthcoming. I wonder if you could have a go at explaining it, even though, as far as I have seen reading this thread, you have not actually mentioned it by name?

One of the effects of experiencing a higher level of consciousness is that you can't explain what it is. It fills your mind with multisyllabic words that you throw around without any regard to their meaning. It also increases your ego to the point that you think you know more than every expert in every field.

 

[tsig]

Limbo:

I'd like to ask you two questions.

1. Why did you start this thread?
2. Do you really understand why skeptics always ask for evidence?

Because we're limited, stunted materialists with no imagination who have never experienced love?

 

[tsig]

I like Bertrand Russell's quote on fools, don't you? “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.”

By that reckoning I am the wisest poster on the forum

It is apparently the activity of the crown chakra, the thousand petal lotus. One's mind becomes a stage for the development of awareness of the synthesis of archetypes, amongst other things.

You sure about that?

 

[dafydd]

It is apparently the activity of the crown chakra, the thousand petal lotus. One's mind becomes a stage for the development of awareness of the synthesis of archetypes, amongst other things.

And then women start looking at you in the street? 'One's mind becomes a stage for the development of awareness of the synthesis of archetypes, amongst other things', delicious gibberish. How often does your mind synthesize archetypes?

 

[slingblade]

Thank you, sling. Bravo.

Well, and thank you, and thanks, Ron Tomkins, too, very much.

It just makes me angry, honestly, What Professor Campbell did was, by any standard, brilliant. I make no bones about that. But it doesn't elevate him into a figure of worship, and I wonder if he'd be put out by the notion.

And don't get me wrong: deliberately using THJ as your blueprint is pretty clever, too. Lucas wasn't stupid. If he introduced anything to Hollywood, it was that deliberateness. Which, if done heavy-handedly, could backfire, too.

But honestly; the reason Campbell could identify the Monomyth was its very presence in most of our stories. I'd say that after a time, it'd be pretty hard to fail to recognize such a persistent series of patterns. Literary analysis can reveal some interesting things; things even the author might not realize he's incorporated. In-depth and long-term analysis of myths over decades has to reveal that pattern, eventually. And once you see it, you can't help but recognize it, or significant bits of it, in all the other stories we tell, as well. Believe me; I now see it almost everywhere, myself.

Frankly, by this point, not using it in your story is either feckless or avant garde brilliant. It would indeed be a much better trick to write a successful story that doesn't use it.

 

[Mudcat]

Limbo, I am going to put aside such posted-to-death questions like "is X testable" or "is Y falsifiable?" and ask an even more relevant question: Does you experiences or 'information' you have gained present any practical knowledge?

 

[Brian-M]

Heh. Wrong.

Mind explaining why?

The sound of one hand clapping must logically be the sound produced when a single hand claps.

Clapping is normally the sound of two hands slapping together, but the hands can be offset. The fingers of one hand slapping against the palm of the other still counts as clapping.

So clapping can be done by slapping fingers against the palm.
One hand is capable of slapping it's fingers against the palm.
This would be one hand clapping.
The noise produced is therefore the sound of one hand clapping.

Where is my error?

Perhaps the purpose of riddles is to keep mystical knowledge out of the hands of the uninitiated?

So in other words, the purpose of riddles it to prevent revelation to the average person? In which case my question still applies.

Why can't you have revelation without riddles?

 

[dafydd]

Limbo talks Jimmy Riddles. That one is for the rhyming slang fans.

 

[Limbo]

Limbo
I've tried asking people on other forums what a 'higher level of consciousmness is', but no answers have been forthcoming. I wonder if you could have a go at explaining it, even though, as far as I have seen reading this thread, you have not actually mentioned it by name?

A higher level of consciousness is what you get when you use mystical disciplines, such as Yoga, successfully. Your consciousness becomes altered.

Mystical (higher) states of consciousness are not day-to-day states that people are familiar with and so they are difficult to describe.

Transpersonal psychologists study them. Mystical disciplines, such as Yoga, elicit them and help the body to endure their harsh demands.

 

[zooterkin]

I like Bertrand Russell's quote on fools, don't you? “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.”

I'm sure I've seen that somewhere...

An encapsulation of what is also now known as the Dunning-Kruger effect. (There's a variant quoted on that wikipedia page: "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision", and a version from Charles Darwin, "ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge".)

 

[Brian-M]

Yeah, I achieved some profound insights. I verify them by testing and breaking the limits of reality.

How do you independently verify you've actually broken the limits of reality? Do you have witnesses, video recordings, instrument readings, ect?

I verify them by studying comparative religion, comparative mythology, and comparative mysticism.

You verify something by studying unverified claims?
In that case, how do you verify your verification?

It sounds like perfect conditions for confirmation bias to me.

I did abandon my ego. When I became God.

Some people might argue that genuinely believing that you literally became God, as well as genuinely believing that you were picked by a goddess as her champion to battle and defeat an evil tyrant god on another plane of existence, are both extremely egotistical delusions.

I can tell you how to become your own damn Buddha so you can see for yourself what a fool you are right now.

From our perspective you're trying to tell us how to make fools of ourselves by fostering the delusion that we've become our own damn Buddha.

Your understanding of the universe is in conflict with ours. Given that our understanding of the universe is heavily based on independently verifiable empirical evidence, while yours is based heavily on personal experience, it seems to us that it's much more likely that you are simply deluded than the bearer of some special knowledge.

Until you can demonstrate that you're not merely deluded, why should we endeavor to become more like you?

 

[dafydd]

, why should we endeavor to become more like you?

Perish the thought.

 

[Brian-M]

A higher level of consciousness is what you get when you use mystical techniques, such as Yoga, successfully. Your consciousness becomes altered.

Altered consciousness can also be achieved much more quickly by ingesting mystic substances such as Salvia divinorum, popular with Mazatec shamans.

It can also be the achieved through meditation, LSD, sleep deprivation, illness, standing on your head, oxygen deprivation... etc. Anything, really.

Mystical (higher) states of consciousness are not day-to-day states that people are familiar with and so they are difficult to describe.

Why do you keep calling them higher states of consciousness? How can you be sure that they're not actually lower states of consciousness, or equal alternate states of consciousness, or dream-like states of semi-consciousness?

 

[Mudcat]

Altered consciousness can also be achieved much more quickly by ingesting mystic substances such as Salvia divinorum, popular with Mazatec shamans.

It can also be the achieved through meditation, LSD, sleep deprivation, illness, standing on your head, oxygen deprivation... etc. Anything, really.

None of which is any good for you or serves any practical use.

 

[Hokulele]

Heh. Wrong.

Perhaps the purpose of riddles is to keep mystical knowledge out of the hands of the uninitiated?

Good grief, you need to go back and study a little more comaprative religion, in this case, Zen Buddhism.

A koan is not a question with a right answer (or even any wrong ones). The fact that you obviously do not know this is a clear indication that you really do not have the knowledge to which you lay claim.

 

[Limbo]

This book is cheaper than the others you recommended, some of which are over $100 used. I am willing to read it on the chance that in my 20 years on a spiritual path I missed something.

As far as tutorials, can you maybe provide suggestions that the skeptics here can use that don't involve the expense of a book? A brief meditation exercise over a few days, say? Something with which one can see results without a book or a lengthy investment of time?

Hmm. I'll give it some thought.

I have meditated and dreamed and journeyed and yet I have still turned into a skeptic. I suppose I had all the wrong teachers. I have never been God, though.

This is a good idea. Tell this.

I think you have yet to achieve a full kundalini awakening. How good is your physical condition?

 

[dafydd]

Good grief, you need to go back and study a little more comaprative religion, in this case, Zen Buddhism.

A koan is not a question with a right answer (or even any wrong ones). The fact that you obviously do not know this is a clear indication that you really do not have the knowledge to which you lay claim.

That became obvious a while ago. He keeps forgetting that is not the only one who has read Eastern Philosophy.