Vaccines: how do I talk to my anti-vac wife about it?

[excaza]

I said the cause not a cure.

No difference.

 

[excaza]

Hey, if you believe that the world's medical community can't figure out the cause of a chronic condition to a segment of the WORLD'S population as immobile and protected as toddlers, you'll believe anything you're told.

For shame.

Hey, if you believe that the world's medical community can't figure out the cause of a chronic condition to a segment of the WORLD'S population as immobile and protected as toddlers our precious, lovable elderly, you'll believe anything you're told.

For shame.

 

[Tatyana]

There is plenty of evidence against MMR.



http://www.whale.to/vaccine/yazbak1.html

Let's look at this logically.

Wakefield had this hypothesis he thought would win him a Nobel prize, of autistic enterocolitis.

His hypothesis is that enterocolitis, caused by a measles infection in the gut from the MMR jab, not measles from a single jab or from catching measles, caused autism.

Does this make sense?

No.

There is also another major problem with the whale presentation of the Andrew Wakefield paper and research: It was faked.

A summary:
http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347.full

How the link was fixed

The Lancet paper was a case series of 12 child patients; it reported a proposed “new syndrome” of enterocolitis and regressive autism and associated this with MMR as an “apparent precipitating event.” But in fact:

Three of nine children reported with regressive autism did not have autism diagnosed at all. Only one child clearly had regressive autism

Despite the paper claiming that all 12 children were “previously normal,” five had documented pre-existing developmental concerns

Some children were reported to have experienced first behavioural symptoms within days of MMR, but the records documented these as starting some months after vaccination

In nine cases, unremarkable colonic histopathology results—noting no or minimal fluctuations in inflammatory cell populations—were changed after a medical school “research review” to “non-specific colitis”

The parents of eight children were reported as blaming MMR, but 11 families made this allegation at the hospital. The exclusion of three allegations—all giving times to onset of problems in months—helped to create the appearance of a 14 day temporal link

Patients were recruited through anti-MMR campaigners, and the study was commissioned and funded for planned litigation

As well, a study of twelve children is not 'plenty of evidence'.

Let's look at this logically as well.

If a pharmaceutical company released a new drug or vaccine and said 'we know it is safe, we have plenty of evidence, we tested it on twelve children', would you be satisfied?

No.

 

[laca]

Saying that the modern medical community, with the education and technology available to it, cannot determine the cause is criminal.

Why? They haven't found out what causes the degree of mental retardation that's a requirement for anti-vaxxers either.

 

[excaza]

Why? They haven't found out what causes the degree of mental retardation that's a requirement for anti-vaxxers either.

Vaccines.

Haven't you been paying attention?

 

[BadBoy]

Wake up. What would the odds be that a infectious dose of measles, mumps, and rubella would enter the body in the same way as a tetanus infection?

Other than vaccine I'd hazard never in the history of the world.

The OP is about a mans wifes reluctance to vaccinate her and his children me ol mucker.

So, from your response I guess you are saying that vaccines are ok as long as they are given separately ?

 

[laca]

Vaccines.

Haven't you been paying attention?

Oh noes! Does that mean that I'm the one with the terminal Dunning-Kruger and mental retardation beyond repair due to having been given all scheduled vaccines and seasonal ones on top, instead of the anti-vaxxers that seem so to me?

 

[Segnosaur]

I stand corrected

Actually your link doesn't work, but I did some searching and found he's been active in one of the Holocaust denier conspiracy threads. Not a place I normally browse though. (As foolish as most anti-vaxers are, usually they're not normally holocaust deniers.)

Hey, if you believe that the world's medical community can't figure out the cause of a chronic condition to a segment of the WORLD'S population as immobile and protected as toddlers you'll believe anything you're told.

Errr... not really.

I will not "believe anything that's told". I will accept as true (or likely true) anything that A: has supporting evidence, and B: is logically consistent.

The fact that I don't believe our medical community is composed of omnipotent gods capable of magically detecting the cause of a disease is not a failing on my part, but on yours.

Given the fact that we didn't discover single celled organisms until the 17th century, and up until the 19th century bloodletting was still a common practice I'd say we've done pretty good.

.the 1994–2003 U.S. increase was associated with declines in other diagnostic categories, indicating that diagnostic substitution had occurred.

The fact that we have super-duper technology does not mean that our medical experts are omnipotent. We have MRIs and PET scans, but we can't cure Alzheimers. We have new radiation and chemical treatments, but cancer continues to kill millions.

I said the cause not a cure.

Not sure what your point is.

First of all, I did give a reason for the cause of the autism increases.

Secondly, it seems like your complaining that I used the phrase 'cure' (as in "can't cure Alzheimers".) My argument would have been almost the same if I used the word "cause"... we don't know all the factors that cause Alzheimers or cause many cancers as well.

 

[Estellea]

You want the truth? Honestly? Pinkie swear?

How in hell can the cause of such an astronomical, pretty much world wide, increase of autism to toddlers be a freaking mystery?

Saying that the modern medical community, with the education and technology available to it, cannot determine the cause is criminal.

First, there is no astronomical rise in autism as you understand it; that's just a rallying cry of the Age of Autism groupies. Autism did not spring into existence when Bleuler and Kanner put a name to it, it's been with us all along and a number of factors explain the apparent rise in autism prevalence. Diagnostic criteria has changed in the last few decades to include more children that were otherwise diagnosed or even not at all. Children with mental retardation or emotionally disturbed, for example have decreased and instead labelled with an ASD (autism spectrum disorder) diagnosis. Furthermore, most children and adults on the spectrum are not severely autistic, most are higher functioning (my apologies to those who dislike this nomenclature). That explains most, but not all of the increase in ASD prevalence.

There are numerous publications involving autism aetiologies if you care to look for those instead of reading drek on whale.to. You can visit PubMed and Clinical Trials.org. Several papers identifying both inherited and de novo genetic mutations, infectious agents (rubella) and in utero influences can be perused. Given the complexity of the disorder, it isn't surprising that it is taking so long to elucidate the aetiology. A good analogy and dissimilarity at this juncture is to look at the height gene collaboration studies; first of all, this huge group identified over 180 gene loci involved with height determination. Height is also heavily influenced by environmental factors and this was an enormous undertaking by several institutions.

If that many gene loci are involved with a phenotype, imagine what the complexity of brain structure must be like. Autism research is also very fractured compared to the height collaboration so it isn't surprising that multiple avenues are being simultaneously explored. Good research takes labour, money, patience and replication; you don't get to make things up out of whole cloth like the people you idolise do. Now if you are really interested and genuinely curious then you will get your nose out of whale.to and go to a university library to access the primary literature; the former is cheap, lazy and above all, dishonest. If you want to discuss a valid study, then this is as good as any place to do so.

Este

 

[Tatyana]

I live in a small town of 9,000.

Wal-Mart Pharmacy
Eckerd
CVS(2)
Rite-Aid
SuperFresh
Acme


All do prescriptions.
Greed? Huge profits?

All are 20 minute walk or less.

As I've said before. Can you imagine how much insurance companies save by insisting on the MMR rather than single vaccines?

Wakefield was all about the greed and big money.

He created companies based on promoting a single vaccine on an out-dated method called 'transfer technology'. He filed this patent a year before he did his research.

He also started another company to detect the measles virus in all bodily fluids. He estimated a yearly turnover in the US and the UK of several million pounds.

All of this is documented, even his business plans stating this are scanned an on-line at briandeer.com.

He was nearly half a million pounds to do the research by a lawyer who was trying to prove the case that the MMR jab had caused autism in their children.

Don't fool yourself, Wakefield was, and still is, all about the money.

http://briandeer.com/mmr/lancet-summary.htm

As well, I do have to make this observation, just because things work a certain way in the US does not mean that the rest of the world operates in similar manner.

 

[Clayton Moore]

The OP is about a mans wifes reluctance to vaccinate her and his children me ol mucker.

So, from your response I guess you are saying that vaccines are ok as long as they are given separately ?

Pretty much, yes. My son and his wife, both Special Ed teachers, have decided to do that. And that is without any input from me.

 

[Tatyana]

Originally Posted by Estellea View Post


Este




Good catch.


You want the truth? Honestly? Pinkie swear?


How in hell can the cause of such an astronomical, pretty much world wide, increase of autism to toddlers be a freaking mystery?

Saying that the modern medical community, with the education and technology available to it, cannot determine the cause is criminal.

What is criminal is that so much research money has been spent proving to the public that the issue is not vaccination.

I do find a lot of your statements quite odd. You are all over the shop. Science BAD and WRONG. No, science should really sort this out, but faster.

Human pathologies are often really complicated and multi-factorial.

That YOU think that this should be sorted right now is irrelevant. Science often takes time.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21156395
Environ Health Perspect. 2011 Jun;119(6):873-7. Epub 2010 Dec 13.


Residential proximity to freeways and autism in the CHARGE study.

BACKGROUND:
Little is known about environmental causes and contributing factors for autism. Basic science and epidemiologic research suggest that oxidative stress and inflammation may play a role in disease development. Traffic-related air pollution, a common exposure with established effects on these pathways, contains substances found to have adverse prenatal effects.

OBJECTIVES:
We examined the association between autism and proximity of residence to freeways and major roadways during pregnancy and near the time of delivery, as a surrogate for air pollution exposure.

METHODS:
Data were from 304 autism cases and 259 typically developing controls enrolled in the Childhood Autism Risks from Genetics and the Environment (CHARGE) study. The mother's address recorded on the birth certificate and trimester-specific addresses derived from a residential history obtained by questionnaire were geocoded, and measures of distance to freeways and major roads were calculated using ArcGIS software. Logistic regression models compared residential proximity to freeways and major roads for autism cases and typically developing controls.

RESULTS:
Adjusting for sociodemographic factors and maternal smoking, maternal residence at the time of delivery was more likely be near a freeway (≤ 309 m) for cases than for controls [odds ratio (OR)=1.86; 95% confidence interval (CI), 1.04-3.45]. Autism was also associated with residential proximity to a freeway during the third trimester (OR=2.22; CI, 1.16-4.42). After adjustment for socioeconomic and sociodemographic characteristics, these associations were unchanged. Living near other major roads at birth was not associated with autism.

CONCLUSIONS:
Living near a freeway was associated with autism. Examination of associations with measured air pollutants is needed.

 

[Tomblvd]

Pretty much, yes. My son and his wife, both Special Ed teachers, have decided to do that. And that is without any input from me.

Why are single jabs safe?

 

[Rolfe]

Because they haven't been safety-tested nearly so thoroughly as MMR has, silly!

Rolfe.

 

[Segnosaur]

Pretty much, yes. My son and his wife, both Special Ed teachers, have decided to do that. And that is without any input from me.

What is it about being a Special Ed teacher that makes you more capable of understanding medical science than individuals who are actively involved in scientific research?

If being a Special Ed teacher makes you some sort of Omnipotent super-powered god, why are they not out there solving world hunger? Working on the "Grand unified theory"?

 

[Clayton Moore]

What is it about being a Special Ed teacher that makes you more capable of understanding medical science than individuals who are actively involved in scientific research?

If being a Special Ed teacher makes you some sort of Omnipotent super-powered god, why are they not out there solving world hunger? Working on the "Grand unified theory"?

That would be omniscient.

 

[Capsid]

There's a large amount of work being done on looking at the genetics of autism. Why? Because autism runs in families and boys are 4 times more likley to be autistic. This paper shows a correlation with copy number variations between autistic and non-autisitic children.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Monaco autism cnv

 

[ToddH]

There's a large amount of work being done on looking at the genetics of autism. Why? Because autism runs in families and boys are 4 times more likley to be autistic. This paper shows a correlation with copy number variations between autistic and non-autisitic children.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Monaco autism cnv

I've often wondered if it was genetic. I have Asperger's and my son was recently diagnosed with Asperger's as well.

 

[Segnosaur]

What is it about being a Special Ed teacher that makes you more capable of understanding medical science than individuals who are actively involved in scientific research?

If being a Special Ed teacher makes you some sort of Omnipotent super-powered god, why are they not out there solving world hunger? Working on the "Grand unified theory"?

That would be omniscient.

While omniscient would have been a better word in this case, you totally missed the point... Why does being a 'special ed teacher' make them more capable of understanding medical science than researchers involved in the field?

Its actually quite revealing the way you nitpick on minor things like word choice, while ignoring the actual "big questions"... Your arguments are baseless and you can't answer the big questions. The only think you can do is try picking on irrelevant things like word choice (even when the context makes the intention clear) while doing your best to sidestep what was actually asked of you... like why being a 'special ed teacher' makes someone qualified as a medical expert.

 

[Clayton Moore]

While omniscient would have been a better word in this case, you totally missed the point... Why does being a 'special ed teacher' make them more capable of understanding medical science than researchers involved in the field?

Its actually quite revealing the way you nitpick on minor things like word choice, while ignoring the actual "big questions"... Your arguments are baseless and you can't answer the big questions. The only think you can do is try picking on irrelevant things like word choice (even when the context makes the intention clear) while doing your best to sidestep what was actually asked of you... like why being a 'special ed teacher' makes someone qualified as a medical expert.

How many parents of autistic children do you know?

How many parents of autistic children did you interact with over the past 10 years?

I'm sure they are better prepared to make an informed decision for their children than you are.

Besides, what they are doing is walking to the corner and crossing at the light rather than chance crossing in the middle of the block.