Vaccines: how do I talk to my anti-vac wife about it?

[Capsid]

We must remember that even fire drills aren't completely safe. Someone might trip on the stairs and twist an ankle. You have to go outside and it might be raining. You lose productive work time. (It may even be possible that some time, somewhere, someone died of a heart attack while a fire drill was in progress.)

The antivaxers are like people saying no, no, look how harmful fire drills are, don't hold them. Keep your children safe from these dangers, never have a fire drill at school.

You know it makes common sense.

Rolfe.

Fixed that for you.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

We must remember that even fire drills aren't completely safe. Someone might trip on the stairs and twist an ankle. You have to go outside and it might be raining. You lose productive work time. (It may even be possible that some time, somewhere, someone died of a heart attack while a fire drill was in progress.)

The antivaxers are like people saying no, no, look how harmful fire drills are, don't hold them. Keep your children safe from these dangers, never have a fire drill at school.

You know it makes sense.

Rolfe.

reminiscent of "stranger danger" when people go Librarian poo over the .1% chance of abduction while ignoring more real and prevalent dangers within their own home

 

[Hazel]

reminiscent of "stranger danger" when people go Librarian poo over the .1% chance of abduction while ignoring more real and prevalent dangers within their own home

.1% chance can loom terribly large if it is your child. Sometimes, numbers just aren't part of the picture. I agree with your premise that we shouldn't shut the children up insde "for fear that" but putting it in numbers gets touchy.

 

[Clayton Moore]

I applaud the courage of the OP's wife.




I'd wager that those who are most vocal in questioning the MMR are Moms of autistic children and Moms in general.

I'd also wager that if a poll was taken of parents of autistic children over 75% would identify vaccines as the cause.

 

[Rolfe]

I might wager there will be a heatwave tomorrow, too.

You never know....

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

.1% chance can loom terribly large if it is your child. Sometimes, numbers just aren't part of the picture. I agree with your premise that we shouldn't shut the children up insde "for fear that" but putting it in numbers gets touchy.

0.1% chance of abduction if you have free-range children.

99.9% chance of morbidly obese maladjusted social inadequates if you keep them in the house.

Better drowned than duffers.

Rolfe.

 

[excaza]

I'd wager that those who are most vocal in questioning the MMR are Moms of autistic children and Moms in general.

Even if true, so what?

I'd also wager that if a poll was taken of parents of autistic children over 75% would identify vaccines as the cause.

Again, even if true, so what? Why do you value so highly the opinions of people who have no idea what they're talking about?

 

[Estellea]

I applaud the courage of the OP's wife.

Sure, foot-stomping and gruesome ultimatums are so courageous.

I'd wager that those who are most vocal in questioning the MMR are Moms of autistic children and Moms in general.

Yea so?

I'd also wager that if a poll was taken of parents of autistic children over 75% would identify vaccines as the cause.

You would loose then as a survey done last year in the U.S. reported that 25% of parents surveyed believe that vaccines cause autism. More to the point, if you calculate the number of OAP petitioners and the prevalence of ASDs in the U.S., that fetches you 12.5% of parents of autistic children who believe that vaccinesdidit.

http://www2.med.umich.edu/prmc/media/newsroom/details.cfm?ID=1498

Este

 

[Clayton Moore]

Sure, foot-stomping and gruesome ultimatums are so courageous.

Yea so?

You would loose then as a survey done last year in the U.S. reported that 25% of parents surveyed believe that vaccines cause autism. More to the point, if you calculate the number of OAP petitioners and the prevalence of ASDs in the U.S., that fetches you 12.5% of parents of autistic children who believe that vaccinesdidit.

http://www2.med.umich.edu/prmc/media/newsroom/details.cfm?ID=1498

Este

Methodology: This report presents findings from a nationally representative household survey conducted exclusively by Knowledge Networks, Inc, for U-M C.S. Mott Children’s Hospital via a method used in many published studies. The survey was administered in January 2009 to a randomly selected, stratified group of parents aged 18 and older (n=1,552) from the Knowledge Networks standing panel that closely resembles the U.S. population. The sample was subsequently weighted to reflect population figures from the Census Bureau. The survey completion rate was 62 percent among panel members contacted to participate.

Are you serious?

 

[Estellea]

Are you serious?

Yes, I'm serious, care to offer a survey which supports your "wager"?

Este

 

[BadBoy]

Maybe compromise. Seems like those that think vaccines are bad (due to mercury but she may have other reasons) also think the impact is worse when the children are younger, first few years. Believe it or not, anecdotally this can actually seem to be the case.

So try a deal.....no vaccines until they start school which is kindergarten these days. Schools require it and so at that point, you could sell her on the idea that it's not likely to cause harm and the benefits of school outweigh the risk. Of course, you may have trouble finding a good pre-school but maybe not.

Just an idea.

You kidding right?
If not you are talking nonsense. The reason babies are immunized at an early age is because that is when they are most likely to catch stuff. Doh.
There is no controversy here in the same way theres no controversy in involution. There is no compromise because there is no antivacc evidence to suggest its required.

 

[excaza]

Are you serious?

Feel free to explain what you think the bias for this will be. Be sure to keep in mind that, unless you sample the entire population, there will technically be at least some bias. Since sampling the entire population is essentially impossible, one is at the mercy of the sample population.

Also keep in mind that this is about a metric bajillion times less biased than whatever survey you'll inevitably come back with, where the sample population is something asinine like 'the readers of vaccines-cause-autism.com'

 

[BadBoy]

Oooops. I didn't see any mention of viruses. You do know that none of those mentioned enter the body by injection.

What's the usual way you catch tetanus ?

You fail again.

 

[Clayton Moore]

You kidding right?
If not you are talking nonsense. The reason babies are immunized at an early age is because that is when they are most likely to catch stuff. Doh.
There is no controversy here in the same way theres no controversy in involution. There is no compromise because there is no antivacc evidence to suggest its required.

There is plenty of evidence against MMR.

It was the mother of an English boy who developed regressive autism and gastro-intestinal difficulties after receiving his MMR vaccination who first decided that there might be a link between the vaccine, the regression and the gut problems. She investigated further and found out that an adult gastro-enterologist at the Royal Free Hospital in London named Andrew Wakefield had researched the possible link between viruses and gastro-intestinal diseases. After much insistence, this mother was able to convince Dr. Wakefield to evaluate her son. To everyone's surprise, Wakefield included, unusual findings in the child's intestines were noted. More parents with similarly affected children decided to consult Dr. Wakefield and again, the same rather distinctive pathology was identified.

In February 1998, Wakefield published his now well-known study of 12 children with regressive autism and similar gut findings in The Lancet: Ileal-lymphoid-nodular hyperplasia, non-specific colitis, and pervasive developmental disorder in children. He ended his publication by stating: “We have identified a chronic enterocolitis in children that may be related to neuropsychiatric dysfunction. In most cases, onset of symptoms was after measles, mumps, and rubella immunisation. Further investigations are needed to examine this syndrome and its possible relation to this vaccine”. (6)

Dr. Wakefield also added that between the time his paper was submitted for publication and the time that it was actually published, 40 more patients had been evaluated of whom 39 had similar intestinal findings.

Dr. Wakefield never said that the MMR vaccine caused autism but only advised that others investigate the possible suggested link between the triple vaccine and this recent form of autism. He also advocated the use of single vaccines, safely spaced so as not to burden the child's immune system, until the question of the MMR is settled once and for all. Dr. Wakefield was never anti-vaccine and has always stressed the importance of measles vaccination of toddlers. His argument is that such vaccination is actually more needed now because the immunity that today's infants get from their mothers is weaker and of shorter duration because the mothers' immunity followed vaccination rather than disease. [That is actually the reason why the administration of the measles (MMR) vaccine was advanced from 15 to 12 months of age.]

The vaccine authorities in the United Kingdom, afraid that any agreement with Wakefield's stand may be construed as less “faith” in their triple vaccine decided to play a sinister game of Russian Roulette and refused to provide the monovalent vaccines. The result is that fewer children are being immunized against measles in a country where the risk to infants and children may be increased because of the arrival and transit of thousands of foreign travelers from every continent daily. The fact is that the single antigens should have never been excluded because as clearly stated in “Immunization against Infectious Disease” [Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation 1988”] “For children whose parents refuse MMR vaccine, single antigen measles will be available.”

Many parents are so desirous to protect their children that they are traveling to France, Belgium and Holland or paying substantial fees in clinics in England to obtain the single vaccines. The authorities' argument that these convinced and concerned parents will not return for subsequent jabs is offensive. Anyway, it is the measles vaccine that is eminently important at the age of 12 to 15 months. Rubella immunity of females is needed during the childbearing years to prevent Congenital Rubella Syndrome and mumps immunity is important in males as they near puberty. Those two diseases are mild in children and the cellular immunity from disease is stronger and longer lasting.

The statement by Dr. David Salisbury who is in charge of the vaccination program in the UK that the MMR vaccine offers better protection against the individual diseases than the single antigen vaccines is not supported by evidence, as shown above...

Dr. Brent Taylor, head of the Department of Pediatrics and Child Health at the Royal Free and University College Medical School and possibly Dr. Wakefield's most rabid critic, stated in the Sunday Herald of January 14, 2001 that: “Separate vaccines do not provide good protection for children.” This statement is not correct either.

The rigid stand of the vaccine authorities in the UK that it must be “the MMR or Nothing” will lead to measles outbreaks in a country where thousands of travelers arrive or transit daily. For the parents who remain concerned about the MMR vaccine, but cannot afford the fees charged by private clinics, the choice will unfortunately be “nothing”. The authorities should not try to blame Andrew Wakefield; He only advocated that the single vaccines be made available alongside the MMR.

“Nothing” was never one of his options.

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/yazbak1.html

 

[excaza]

So, you're retreating from your position that vaccines cause autism?

 

[Clayton Moore]

What's the usual way you catch tetanus ?

You fail again.

Wake up. What would the odds be that a infectious dose of measles, mumps, and rubella would enter the body in the same way as a tetanus infection?

Other than vaccine I'd hazard never in the history of the world.

 

[laca]

There is plenty of evidence against MMR.

Where?

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/yazbak1.html

No, not there. Try again.

 

[excaza]

Wake up. What would the odds be that a infectious dose of measles, mumps, and rubella would enter the body in the same way as a tetanus infection?

So infections, which are infections because they're in your bloodstream, are different from vaccines because vaccines are in your bloodstream. Right.

 

[Estellea]

There is plenty of evidence against MMR.

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/yazbak1.html

Oh good grief; there is no evidence that MMR is responsible for autism except in the minds of ignorant doddering fools like Yazbak who worship scoundrels like Wakefield. Do you have any other sources that can find what Wakefield did? One of the hallmarks of a scientific consensus is repeated independent verification of a result; let's see what you can find that fits that criteria.

Este

 

[Estellea]

Wake up. What would the odds be that a infectious dose of measles, mumps, and rubella would enter the body in the same way as a tetanus infection?

Other than vaccine I'd hazard never in the history of the world.

You, like so many other anti-vaxxers cannot understand immunology, disease pathology and molecular biology to the degree required to formulate meaningful arguments. Not only are human bodies capable of simultaneously dealing with a repertoire of antigens, but the viral strains in MMR are attenuated, i.e. do not cause full-blown disease pathology as the wild-type viruses do because they can't.

Este