Vaccines: how do I talk to my anti-vac wife about it?

[Clayton Moore]

Oh good grief; there is no evidence that MMR is responsible for autism except in the minds of ignorant doddering fools like Yazbak who worship scoundrels like Wakefield. Do you have any other sources that can find what Wakefield did? One of the hallmarks of a scientific consensus is repeated independent verification of a result; let's see what you can find that fits that criteria.

Este

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100502080234.htm

 

[excaza]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100502080234.htm

Do you actually read these things and comprehend them before you copy and paste?

 

[Segnosaur]

Today I listened to this interview with Dr. Sherri Tenpenny as well as this interview with Dr Suzanne Humphries, M.D..

Here's what I find ironic...

One of the common tactics that the anti-vaxers uses is to condemn the vaccine manufacturers, a.k.a. 'big pharma' (to show them being greedy, among other problems.). Heck, trusetheeker has made a few posts in this thread criticizing them.

If you go to Dr. Tenpenny's web page, right at the top is a link to her "store" where you can purchase her books and supplements.

So, if its a vaccine manufacturer doing anything that involves earning a profit your actions are corrupted by greed, but if you're anti-vax you can sell whatever you want and you'll motives are never ever affected by money.

 

[Estellea]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100502080234.htm

Try reading the study; the children had food selectivity, constipation and diarrhoea, not pathology as reported by Wakefield and anything resembling his "autistic enterocolitis". In fact numerous studies done looking at GI problems in autistic children have found the same and no pathology above and beyond what is reported in the general population.

Try again.

Este

 

[Segnosaur]

There is plenty of evidence against MMR.

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/yazbak1.html

Jesus christ on a pogo stick... not whale.to again.

Just to let you know... whale.to is more or less a personal website, with no more 'authority' than someone's facebook or myspace page.

In fact, its even worse than that... whale.to also contains such nonsense in support of neo-nazis. If you think it is factual in their presentation of vaccine information, do you think they're also being factual when they present information implying the holocaust never happened?

 

[Estellea]

Do you actually read these things and comprehend them before you copy and paste?

No, it's in their instruction manual under the "how to abuse data" section.

Este

 

[Hazel]

Oh good grief; there is no evidence that MMR is responsible for autism except in the minds of ignorant doddering fools like Yazbak who worship scoundrels like Wakefield. Do you have any other sources that can find what Wakefield did? One of the hallmarks of a scientific consensus is repeated independent verification of a result; let's see what you can find that fits that criteria.

Este

Someone once said that name-calling and strong language was a sure sign that we were being fed propoganda by someone who wasn't sure of his facts. Hmmm????

 

[Estellea]

When you "debate" as many of these anti-vaxxers as I do Hazel, then you can Hmmm me all you like. Wakefield is the poster boy for unethical medicos and Yazbak is out of his depth by even trying to chime in on matters of vaccinology.

Este

 

[carlitos]

In fact, its even worse than that... whale.to also contains such nonsense in support of neo-nazis. If you think it is factual in their presentation of vaccine information, do you think they're also being factual when they present information implying the holocaust never happened?

You really don't want to know the answer to that question.

(link to 275 of the most recent of CM's 750+ posts in *that* thread)

 

[Tatyana]

I applaud the courage of the OP's wife.




I'd wager that those who are most vocal in questioning the MMR are Moms of autistic children and Moms in general.

I'd also wager that if a poll was taken of parents of autistic children over 75% would identify vaccines as the cause.

If you polled 100% of the people in the ancient world, they would say that angry gods are the cause of thunder and lightening.

There is this thing called evidence, and that tells us that vaccines do not cause autism.

In fact, in one study it was found that autism rates were LOWER in vaccinated children when compared to their unvaccinated controls.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/01/04/us-mmr-autism-idUSTRE60330220100104
Another study finds no MMR-autism link

http://journals.lww.com/pidj/Documents/Lack_of_Association_Between_Measles_Mumps_Rubella.pdf
Lack of Association Between Measles-Mumps-Rubella
Vaccination and Autism in Children

http://www.news-medical.net/news/20...-autism-in-children-reveals-Polish-study.aspx
Measles vaccine does not increase risk of autism in children, reveals Polish study

 

[Clayton Moore]

Here's what I find ironic...

One of the common tactics that the anti-vaxers uses is to condemn the vaccine manufacturers, a.k.a. 'big pharma' (to show them being greedy, among other problems.). Heck, trusetheeker has made a few posts in this thread criticizing them.

If you go to Dr. Tenpenny's web page, right at the top is a link to her "store" where you can purchase her books and supplements.

So, if its a vaccine manufacturer doing anything that involves earning a profit your actions are corrupted by greed, but if you're anti-vax you can sell whatever you want and you'll motives are never ever affected by money.

I live in a small town of 9,000.

Wal-Mart Pharmacy
Eckerd
CVS(2)
Rite-Aid
SuperFresh
Acme


All do prescriptions.
Greed? Huge profits?

All are 20 minute walk or less.

As I've said before. Can you imagine how much insurance companies save by insisting on the MMR rather than single vaccines?

 

[Segnosaur]

Oh good grief; there is no evidence that MMR is responsible for autism except in the minds of ignorant doddering fools like Yazbak who worship scoundrels like Wakefield. Do you have any other sources that can find what Wakefield did? One of the hallmarks of a scientific consensus is repeated independent verification of a result; let's see what you can find that fits that criteria.

Someone once said that name-calling and strong language was a sure sign that we were being fed propoganda by someone who wasn't sure of his facts. Hmmm????

Well, lets see:

It has been reported (both in mainstream media like the Times) and in scientific journals such as BMJ that Wakefield's research was, at least in part, falsified. Furthermore, several of the co-authors on his Lancet paper have had their names removed from his work. (There were also issues involving his treatment of child patients involved in his "studies". So calling him a "scoundrel" would actually be pretty accurate.

Its not considered 'name calling' to call someone a thief if they're running off with your TV set, and its not inaccurate to call someone a scoundrel if they're falsifying medical results and abusing patients.

And if Yazbak is using Wakefield's work, then he is either ignorant (because he is unaware of the problems involving Wakefield's research) or a fool because he was told of the problems yet still accepts the work as worthy.

 

[Segnosaur]

Here's what I find ironic...

If you go to Dr. Tenpenny's web page, right at the top is a link to her "store" where you can purchase her books and supplements.

So, if its a vaccine manufacturer doing anything that involves earning a profit your actions are corrupted by greed, but if you're anti-vax you can sell whatever you want and you'll motives are never ever affected by money.

I live in a small town of 9,000.
Wal-Mart Pharmacy
Eckerd
CVS(2)
All do prescriptions.
Greed? Huge profits?
All are 20 minute walk or less.

Ummm... so? What's your point?

I never claimed that drug companies and retailers weren't motivated (at least in part) by profits.

Once again, what I'm pointing out the hypocrisy that many in the anti-vax camp have where they condemn "big pharma" companies because earning money is automatically corrupting, yet ignore the fact that many of their anti-vax "experts" are also out to earn profits.

If they think money is so corrupting then why do they listen to people like Tenpenny, who also might profit the more people she convinces to accept her bunk?

As I've said before. Can you imagine how much insurance companies save by insisting on the MMR rather than single vaccines?

Ummm... so?

Yes, insurance companies save money with MMR rather than individual vaccinations. But drug companies and doctors loose out.

Why is 'big pharma' so powerful when it comes to getting vaccines used, but so impotent compared to insurance companies?

And MMR is so dangerous, why wouldn't the insurance companies demand it be replaced by individual injections? After all, they are the ones who will have to pay for any medical problems that might result if the MMR actually caused problems.

 

[Estellea]

I live in a small town of 9,000.

Wal-Mart Pharmacy
Eckerd
CVS(2)
Rite-Aid
SuperFresh
Acme


All do prescriptions.
Greed? Huge profits?

All are 20 minute walk or less.

As I've said before. Can you imagine how much insurance companies save by insisting on the MMR rather than single vaccines?

Pssst, what else do you suppose they sell that oh amounts to a lot more than Rx sales? Some Rx chains even give free generic medications; the horror.

I have a half dozen petrol stations within a 3 kilometre radius of my house. Coincidence? I think not.

You can't seem to find that pesky evidence that single jabs are safer than the triple jab. That is required to formulate any argument in favour of providing single jabs. But chew on this a bit, if you like to believe Wakefield, then why would a single measles jab not cause autism whereas the triple jab does? And he claims it's only the measles portion, no others.

It wouldn't have ANYTHING to do with his patent for a single measles/transfer factor combination super duper measles prophylaxis/autism cure would it?

Este

 

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Estellea View Post

Oh good grief; there is no evidence that MMR is responsible for autism except in the minds of ignorant doddering fools like Yazbak who worship scoundrels like Wakefield. Do you have any other sources that can find what Wakefield did? One of the hallmarks of a scientific consensus is repeated independent verification of a result; let's see what you can find that fits that criteria.

Este

Someone once said that name-calling and strong language was a sure sign that we were being fed propoganda by someone who wasn't sure of his facts. Hmmm????

Good catch.


You want the truth? Honestly? Pinkie swear?


How in hell can the cause of such an astronomical, pretty much world wide, increase of autism to toddlers be a freaking mystery?

Saying that the modern medical community, with the education and technology available to it, cannot determine the cause is criminal.

 

[Segnosaur]

You really don't want to know the answer to that question.

(link to 275 of the most recent of CM's 750+ posts in *that* thread)

I stand corrected

Actually your link doesn't work, but I did some searching and found he's been active in one of the Holocaust denier conspiracy threads. Not a place I normally browse though. (As foolish as most anti-vaxers are, usually they're not normally holocaust deniers.)

 

[excaza]

How in hell can the cause of such an astronomical, pretty much world wide, increase of autism to toddlers be a freaking mystery?

Saying that the modern medical community, with the education and technology available to it, cannot determine the cause is criminal.

Shocking, yet another argument from incredulity, with some appeal to emotion thrown in.

This is the same medical community that still cannot prevent cancer, ALS, AIDS, MS, etc. Why are you not similarly outraged for all of those? To assert that the lack of a solution or answer for every single possible biological question is due to intentional, criminal negligence or lack of effort is, quite frankly, all sorts of stupid.

 

[Segnosaur]

Oh good grief; there is no evidence that MMR is responsible for autism except in the minds of ignorant doddering fools like Yazbak who worship scoundrels like Wakefield

Someone once said that name-calling and strong language was a sure sign that we were being fed propoganda by someone who wasn't sure of his facts. Hmmm????

Good catch.

Not really.

I already posted why labeling Wakefield a 'scoundrel' is an accurate assessment based on Wakefield's history of patient abuse and falsifying records, and how anyone relying on his work can and should be considered a fool.

How in hell can the cause of such an astronomical, pretty much world wide, increase of autism to toddlers be a freaking mystery?

Its not.

The reason that we've seen an increase in the rates of autism is probably because the medical community has become better at diagnosing it.

From wikipedia:
...the 1994–2003 U.S. increase was associated with declines in other diagnostic categories, indicating that diagnostic substitution had occurred.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_autism#cite_note-Shattuck-23 A 2007 study that modeled autism incidence found that broadened diagnostic criteria, diagnosis at a younger age, and improved efficiency of case ascertainment, can produce an increase in the frequency of autism ranging up to 29-fold depending on the frequency measure, suggesting that methodological factors may explain the observed increases in autism over time.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_autism#cite_note-24/i]

Saying that the modern medical community, with the education and technology available to it, cannot determine the cause is criminal.

Not really.

The fact that we have super-duper technology does not mean that our medical experts are omnipotent. We have MRIs and PET scans, but we can't cure Alzheimers. We have new radiation and chemical treatments, but cancer continues to kill millions.

 

[Clayton Moore]

I stand corrected

Actually your link doesn't work, but I did some searching and found he's been active in one of the Holocaust denier conspiracy threads. Not a place I normally browse though. (As foolish as most anti-vaxers are, usually they're not normally holocaust deniers.)

Hey, if you believe that the world's medical community can't figure out the cause of a chronic condition to a segment of the WORLD'S population as immobile and protected as toddlers you'll believe anything you're told.

For shame.

 

[Clayton Moore]

From wikipedia:
...the 1994–2003 U.S. increase was associated with declines in other diagnostic categories, indicating that diagnostic substitution had occurred.cause[/SIZE][/B] is criminal.

I said the cause not a cure.