Vaccines: how do I talk to my anti-vac wife about it?

[Robrob]

Perhaps you should check again or just wait until you've worn your body out and allowed doctors to "poison" you back to health until you're on death's door, which will no doubt sharpen your focus on what constitutes a law.

Easy answer, as medical knowledge and "non-natural hygiene" have improved over the past century or two, have life expectancy rates gone up or down?

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Since anecdotes mean so much for truthseeker, I wonder if he read further down in the comments field and came across this gem:

I became a Natural Hygienist (NH) when I was 18. From being 64 kg ( BMI of 22) I dropped 19 kg to 45 kg (BMI of around 15-17). People though I either had aids or cancer. People told me that but I could see no difference on the mirror. After 3 years of eating only raw natural foods and being severely underweight I guess my body went into survival mode. My usual high libido went down to minus 2 and I became depressed for no reason. Everything was perfect in my life but I felt like crying all the time. I know depression exists as a psychiatric problem but I think my depression had a biologic explanation just like the decrease in libido. Like anorexic females which stop menstruating, I stopped producing testosterone. The lack of testosterone produces low libido and depression. Finally after 4 years of being a NH I started dreaming about chicken and hamburgers every night for about a month (no kidding). I though my body was telling something. After a few months of eating a healthy but more calorie full diet I gained weight, started to like chicks again and became a more happier person. During those 4 years I had a chronic sinus infection. Every morning I would blew green thick mucus from my nose and I use to have a chronic right face pressure. NH did nothing for that in 4 years. 5 days of bactrim made my green morning ritual and face pressure completely disappear. Now I'm a Doctor of Medicine and currently specializing in Urologic Surgery.​

 

[trusetheeker]

And I was pointing out how foolish fasting is for those who are ill. You don't seem to have a good grasp of the three laws of thermodynamics.

You have no grasp on fasting and therefore are in no opinion to judge it.

Apparently Herbert Shelton killed more than one victim patient by starvation.

Bloody typical. You like your little slanderous comments, don't you. You accuse me of lying and then tap dance around it as though your original thread didn't prove your guilt. Now you slander Dr Herbert Shelton, linking to the source that you apparently think backs up your accusation but leave out the all important quotation.

In 1942, Dr. Shelton is brought to trial on a charge of "negligent homicide" for starving a patient to death at Dr. Shelton's Health School and for "treating and offering to treat a human being without a state medical license." Mrs. John Gillis dies while under Dr. Shelton's care at his school. The case, however, is never tried. The charges are dropped.

I suppose that in your mind, the "charges are dropped" just means he got away with murder.

Medical doctors kill people every day either with their "treatments" or with their incorrect advice on healthy living. As long as they follow the approved dogma (regimen) they can kill with impunity. Even if they screw up, they're only likely to get a slap on the wrist, if anyone even notices. It's got to be a major screwup to even get a malpractice suit.

The medical industry is allowed to drug and cut cancer patients until there's nothing left to work on and then pronounce the patient terminal and send them home to die. If that patient then turns to Natural Hygiene but dies while under their care, the Hygienists will invariably be accused of manslaughter. As fasting is neither recognised nor understood by the medical industry, it's understandable that they would accuse Shelton of starving the patient.

They (the medical industry) should not be proud of their ignorance nor should you.

 

[trusetheeker]

Since anecdotes mean so much for truthseeker, I wonder if he read further down in the comments field and came across this gem:

I became a Natural Hygienist (NH) when I was 18. From being 64 kg ( BMI of 22) I dropped 19 kg to 45 kg (BMI of around 15-17). People though I either had aids or cancer. People told me that but I could see no difference on the mirror. After 3 years of eating only raw natural foods and being severely underweight I guess my body went into survival mode. My usual high libido went down to minus 2 and I became depressed for no reason. Everything was perfect in my life but I felt like crying all the time. I know depression exists as a psychiatric problem but I think my depression had a biologic explanation just like the decrease in libido. Like anorexic females which stop menstruating, I stopped producing testosterone. The lack of testosterone produces low libido and depression. Finally after 4 years of being a NH I started dreaming about chicken and hamburgers every night for about a month (no kidding). I though my body was telling something. After a few months of eating a healthy but more calorie full diet I gained weight, started to like chicks again and became a more happier person. During those 4 years I had a chronic sinus infection. Every morning I would blew green thick mucus from my nose and I use to have a chronic right face pressure. NH did nothing for that in 4 years. 5 days of bactrim made my green morning ritual and face pressure completely disappear. Now I'm a Doctor of Medicine and currently specializing in Urologic Surgery.​

Yes, I did and I noticed that quite a few people who knew nothing about Natural Hygiene had plenty to say against it. Nothings changed as this thread plainly makes clear.

 

[Robrob]

Yes, I did and I noticed that quite a few people who knew nothing about Natural Hygiene had plenty to say against it. Nothings changed as this thread plainly makes clear.

So life expectancy rates have gone down in the industrialized world?

 

[Chris Haynes]

You have no grasp on fasting and therefore are in no opinion to judge it.

I'll just go by what my father used to say: "I experienced starving during the depression. I don't need to do it on purpose."

And he was talking about the religious fasting that allowed people to actually eat between sundown and sunset.

Actually you have no grasp of basic thermodynamics.

Bloody typical. You like your little slanderous comments, don't you. You accuse me of lying and then tap dance around it as though your original thread didn't prove your guilt. Now you slander Dr Herbert Shelton, linking to the source that you apparently think backs up your accusation but leave out the all important quotation.

I am not Safe-Keeper, I don't believe I've ever accused of lying. Perhaps ignorant of basic physics, but I am sure you are sincere in your beliefs. Even though they would only be true on Htrae.

And how do you slander someone who is dead? Though I would be interested which state granted him a license to practice medicine.

So what if charges were dropped. That is an issue with the legal system. Though real money was paid in one case:

In 1982, a federal court jury awarded over $800,000 to the survivors of William Carlton, a 49-year-old man who died after undergoing a distilled water fast for 30 days at Shelton’s Health School. An article in the Los Angeles Times stated that Carlton had died of bronchial pneumonia resulting from a weakened condition in which he lost 50 pounds during his last month of life. The article also noted that he was the sixth person in five years who had died while undergoing treatment at the school [2]. Shelton and his chiropractic associate, Vivian V. Vetrano, claimed in their appeal that Carlton had persisted in fasting after Dr. Vetrano had advised him to stop. However, the verdict was upheld by the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals and the U.S. Supreme Court declined further review.

More on that case.

Oh, look there is more!


...

They (the medical industry) should not be proud of their ignorance nor should you.

Then educate us. Explain exactly what real evidence there is that shows vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases they prevent. Show us exactly how Natural Hygiene prevents measles and pertussis with real documentation. Just post the peer reviewed studies.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Bloody typical. You like your little slanderous comments, don't you. You accuse me of lying and then tap dance around it as though your original thread didn't prove your guilt. Now you slander Dr Herbert Shelton, linking to the source that you apparently think backs up your accusation but leave out the all important quotation.

I don't think Chris is going to take responsibility for my posts. That wouldn't be entirely fair.

Yes, I did and I noticed that quite a few people who knew nothing about Natural Hygiene had plenty to say against it. Nothings changed as this thread plainly makes clear.

So anecdotes that oppose your position don't count? Okay, gotcha.

What about my link regarding native American life expectancy (25-35 years)?

Edit: as for what you actually said:

You accuse me of lying and then tap dance around it

Okay, nice and slow:
- The claim that "Modern day stats do not look good and are not a good testimony to the efficacy of modern conventional medicine" is indeed a lie.
- You didn't neccessarily lie, though, because it's quite possible you sincerely believe what you're saying, in which case it's simply a matter of being mistaken.

I was trying to be generous with you by admitting that it's quite possible, in fact highly likely, that you've actually been taken in yourself and actually believe what you posted. Got it now?

 

[trusetheeker]

How convenient.

Depends on your viewpoint. As another person who knows nothing about Natural Hygiene, you make the mistake of assuming that everyone practiced NH before modern medicine came along. The American Indians actually used herbal medicine and many thought that disease was caused by witches. There's no evidence so far that they knew anything about food combining or the correct use of the fast.

Why were they a declining civilisation? Good question but unfortunately they weren't so good at documenting their decline as we are.

What "stats" are you talking about and what "natural" civilization, specifically, are you comparing them to?

Here's a few:
Source: Summary Health Statistics for U.S. Adults: National Health Interview Survey, 2010,
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_10/sr10_252.pdf

Persons diagnosed with Heart Disease (All and Hypertension subset)

(These are only the stats of living people who replied to the survey. None of this reflects the people who had died of any of these complaints)

                    Any
            Sample  Heart    Hyper-   Cancer     Diabetes   Arthritis
            size    Disease  tension  (Any)                  
18-44 years 110,615  4.4%     9.3%     2.2%       2.8%       7.1%
45-64 years  90,198 13.2%    34.4%     9.9%      12.3%      30.3%      
65-74 years  21,291 24.3%    54.2%    20.4%      22%        49%     
75 years+    17,401 37.1%    57.3%    27.2%      21.7%      54.1%

National Hospital Discharge Survey: 2007 Summary
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr029.pdf

Hospital discharges 2007 (numbers in thousands)

                                            Diseases of             Genito-            Surgical
             All        Malignant  Heart    Digestive   Respiratory urinary  Osteo-    Medical       Mental
             Conditions Neoplasms  Disease  System      Diseases    system   arthritis Complications Disorders
14-44 years  10,571     116          250      819         332         523     18       186           1,251
45-64 years   8,753     484        1,205    1,040         781         550    271       336             743
65+ years    12,863     596        2,493    1,229       1,641         947    429       355             244

Deaths: Final Data for 2007
http://www.cdc.gov/NCHS/data/nvsr/nvsr58/nvsr58_19.pdf

                                                         Percent
                                                         of  total
Rank Cause of death                              Number  deaths 
. . .  All causes                              2,423,712  100.0
1    Diseases of heart                           616,067  25.4 
2    Malignant neoplasms                         562,875  23.2 
3    Cerebrovascular diseases                    135,952  5.6 
4    Chronic  lower  respiratory diseases        127,924  5.3 
5    Accidents  (unintentional  injuries)        123,706  5.1 
6    Alzheimer’s disease                         74,632   3.1 
7    Diabetes mellitus                           71,382   2.9 
8    Influenza and pneumonia                     52,717   2.2 
9    Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and
                                  nephrosis      46,448   1.9 
10  Septicemia                                   34,828   1.4 
11  Intentional self-harm  (suicide)             34,598   1.4 
12  Chronic  liver disease and cirrhosis         29,165   1.2 
13  Essential hypertension and 
      hypertensive  renal disease                23,965   1.0 
14  Parkinson’s disease                          20,058   0.8 
15  Assault  (homicide)                          18,361   0.8 
. . .  All other causes                         451,034  18.6

Note that this table omits iatrogenic deaths - perhaps they're included in "accidents". The document doesn't mention it in the notes at all unless they've used another term that I haven't time to search for.

The age-related stats indicate the cumulative impact of lifestyle which in the USA includes the standard, high-fat, high-protein and high-sugar diet as well as well as a lifetime of vaccination, medicinal drugs (OTC or prescription) and alcohol, tobacco and the abuse of other recreational drug.

It's high time that the alternative health people had a go to see what stats they can produce after 100 years or more with a monopoly on health care. The current lot are keeping very busy treating disease but neither curing nor preventing it.

As a final general comment in this post, a lot of fuss is made about natural health people using the medical facilities for trauma and emergency treatment and there are times when a good surgeon is indispensable. If I had a choice, I would always choose a Natural Hygiene-trained surgeon or emergency doctor for these purposes but, of course, there aren't any because of the medical industry's monopoly on health care provision. So don't knock us for resorting to the only care providers available when required!

 

[Chris Haynes]

...Note that this table omits iatrogenic deaths - perhaps they're included in "accidents". The document doesn't mention it in the notes at all unless they've used another term that I haven't time to search for.

Oh, do tell! Exactly what are the statistics of iatrogenic death versus not getting any health care.

And where are those studies done by the esteemed colleges of Natural Hygiene?

It's high time that the alternative health people had a go to see what stats they can produce after 100 years or more with a monopoly on health care. The current lot are keeping very busy treating disease but neither curing nor preventing it.

What was the average lifespan in 1912? And what is it now?

... I would always choose a Natural Hygiene-trained surgeon or emergency doctor for these purposes but, of course, there aren't any because of the medical industry's monopoly on health care provision. So don't knock us for resorting to the only care providers available when required!

Perhaps you should also tell us which Natural Hygiene universities teach surgery.

Plus you have never answered my questions here, especially this one:

4) What caused the rate of measles to plummet 90% in the USA between 1960 and 1970 (image file)?

Please answer that one (it happens to be on topic).

 

[Tomblvd]

Depends on your viewpoint. As another person who knows nothing about Natural Hygiene, you make the mistake of assuming that everyone practiced NH before modern medicine came along. The American Indians actually used herbal medicine and many thought that disease was caused by witches. There's no evidence so far that they knew anything about food combining or the correct use of the fast.

So what are you basing your claims on?

Why were they a declining civilisation? Good question but unfortunately they weren't so good at documenting their decline as we are.

So how do you know they were declining?

It's high time that the alternative health people had a go to see what stats they can produce after 100 years or more with a monopoly on health care. The current lot are keeping very busy treating disease but neither curing nor preventing it.

High time? I'd say so.

You admit there's no stats to prove your point, but that doesn't stop you from believing this drivel.

As a final general comment in this post, a lot of fuss is made about natural health people using the medical facilities for trauma and emergency treatment and there are times when a good surgeon is indispensable. If I had a choice, I would always choose a Natural Hygiene-trained surgeon or emergency doctor for these purposes but, of course, there aren't any because of the medical industry's monopoly on health care provision. So don't knock us for resorting to the only care providers available when required!

You admit a "good surgeon is indispensable", yet you would prefer one that is "Natural Hygiene-trained"? You do understand that they are mutually-exclusive (as per your own definitions), don't you?

What would "Natural Hygiene-trained" trauma treatment look like?

Edit to add:

You also made this statement:

Modern day stats do not look good and are not a good testimony to the efficacy of modern conventional medicine.

to which I responded:

What "stats" are you talking about and what "natural" civilization, specifically, are you comparing them to?

None of the statistics you posted tell us anything about the efficacy of modern medicine as compared to anything, let alone Natural healing.

So please tell us what you are comparing these numbers to.

 

[Dikken]

Why were they a declining civilisation? Good question but unfortunately they weren't so good at documenting their decline as we are.

This is at least the second time you have asserted this. Where is this decline of the native population documented? Read "1491" by C. Mann for a completely different view of the Americas before the Europeans reached this continent.

 

[Chris Haynes]

...Read "1491" by C. Mann for a completely different view of the Americas before the Europeans reached this continent.

Off topic: I read the about the first half of that book today. It is very interesting.

I noticed elsewhere that folks who are into Natural Hygiene also have a limited knowledge of history. They must also be sucked into believing Holmberg's mistake.

 

[excaza]

If I had a choice, I would always choose a Natural Hygiene-trained surgeon or emergency doctor for these purposes

wtf is a 'natural hygiene' trained surgeon?

but, of course, there aren't any because of the medical industry's monopoly on health care provision. So don't knock us for resorting to the only care providers available when required!

They're required because the woo alternative harms people instead of helps them.