Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[AmyStrange]

...This is good psychology, and I hope it holds up. It seems it should...

Thank you smkovalinksy,

I don't blame you if you (like some) still are cautiously optimistic, I was also at one time the same way and it's quite understandable,

Dave

 

[theRealBob]

I noticed a previous comment listing reasons from the appeal as to why they'll go free.
More importantly...

Just look at Massei's attitude towards anything not favoring his local mates in his personal version of a trial.

Then look at Hellman. It's his attitude that is the key to everything.
He's had quite a few moments like..

1) being the one to instigate the DNA review
2) and what about that vanquishing of the Curatolo pest ?

and of course there's everything else too....

To be honest you can just turn up to court and watch the prosecution misfits lie and implode......the second a bit of pressures on (and in Massei's dopey trial, of course, there was none.....)

I just hope he's not putting on a 'more serious tone' then bluffing.

Anything is possible in a case where witchcraft is involved.......

 

[theRealBob]

I want to see the Sollecitos go after everyone involved.

And yep. I reckon they will......

 

[Dougm]

I am having a bit of deja vu back to where I was emotionally midway through the appeal, when C&V were off studying the DNA. I was really hopeful they would agree that their were issues with the DNA, thinking that they would agree with at least some of the points the defense had raised in the first trial, and had been dismissed by Massei. But I was also very wary that, given the history of this case, that anyone official in Italy would agree with what we pro-Knox and Sollecito folks had been saying for months. So I really could not get my mind around the idea that the report would come back in a way that was totally positive to the defense, I was hoping for dismissal of a good portion of the DNA as evidence.

Then, when the report came out, it went beyond my wildest expectations, completely agreeing with the contentions of the defense, and throwing in a few additional criticisms of their own! I was pleased, but a bit shocked that C&V had come down so hard on Stefanoni and the gang.

I have a similar feeling now. All seems to point to acquittal, but I can't quite bring myself to believe that Amanda and Raffaele will be thoroughly vindicated. I am taking it as a positive sign of what happened the last time I was surprised. I wasn't following this closely at this point of the first trial, so I don't know how that felt then. I have read some people feel that they are much more optomistic this time, and others say they felt that there would be an acquittal the last time, and were surprised.

Thoughts anyone?

 

[js202]

js202,

interesting. Reminds me of the Sorority House murders that Ted Bundy was convicted of it Florida. He went from room to room clubbing girls over the head while they were asleep in their beds.

By then, it can be argued he was an accomplished murderer with at least a couple dozen murders under his belt by then. Some profilers have explained it (I'm paraphrasing) as a kind of damn bursting. He had gone so long trying to contain his murderous impulses that when the damn finally did break, he went into a uncontrollable murderous frenzy.

Sound familiar?

Dave

Yes, Bundy was before my time, but I have studied his horrific works a little bit. I think that when he committed those Florida murders, he was on the lam after dramatically escaping from prison. In a way, it seemed as though he was getting it all out of him as fast and furious as he could, given that he knew he was living on borrowed time, as it were. Chilling that the human mind could be so monstrous.

Bundy was a truly sick individual, and prolific in a way that hopefully Rudy Guede does not have in him. Thanks to the geniuses in Perugia, we will get to see about Guede, though, and sooner than any cautious person would wish.

 

[JREF2010]

But would it be thought as sadistic, if you really thought they were guilty? I can imagine it would be, if you thought they were innocent but intended to convict them again anyway, but, if you thought they really did all the prosecution charged them with, you might find having the world see their reactions when once again justly found guilty to be their just desserts.

very good point..

 

[Steft50]

I am having a bit of deja vu back to where I was emotionally midway through the appeal, when C&V were off studying the DNA. I was really hopeful they would agree that their were issues with the DNA, thinking that they would agree with at least some of the points the defense had raised in the first trial, and had been dismissed by Massei. But I was also very wary that, given the history of this case, that anyone official in Italy would agree with what we pro-Knox and Sollecito folks had been saying for months. So I really could not get my mind around the idea that the report would come back in a way that was totally positive to the defense, I was hoping for dismissal of a good portion of the DNA as evidence.

Then, when the report came out, it went beyond my wildest expectations, completely agreeing with the contentions of the defense, and throwing in a few additional criticisms of their own! I was pleased, but a bit shocked that C&V had come down so hard on Stefanoni and the gang.

I have a similar feeling now. All seems to point to acquittal, but I can't quite bring myself to believe that Amanda and Raffaele will be thoroughly vindicated. I am taking it as a positive sign of what happened the last time I was surprised. I wasn't following this closely at this point of the first trial, so I don't know how that felt then. I have read some people feel that they are much more optomistic this time, and others say they felt that there would be an acquittal the last time, and were surprised.

Thoughts anyone?

All I can say is that I hope this panel of Judges/jury will aquit this time, but after the CA trial I can't comfortably say anything beyond that. In Italy your dealing with not only the evidence but it seems they make decisions based on they're own ultra ancient traditional views on women and religion beliefs. At least those are the only reasons I can come up with on why Amanda and Raffaele were found guilty the first time around.

 

[JREF2010]

It's possible that even Massei wasn't that sadistic.

If you're right about the cameras showing the defendants faces it does sound like a certain aquittal.
I hope you're right.

If Hellman despatches the right people to where they really belong, I think that when this is all done and dusted the Solleitos are going to go after everyone......BIG TIME

hi TRbob..

I didnt write the article..but I agree if thats the correct translation.. there's a lot of tweetering and fast articles flying around.

I would like to see some other confirmation articles.
snook1 had the actual link to the full article...its in Italian.maybe someone else can confirm or find out some more.

http://www3.lastampa.it/cronache/sezion

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7622386&postcount=7803

maybe its totally normal in Italy to do reaction filming of the verdict? idk how the courts run in Perugia other than the Massei trial...

 

[theRealBob]

Pilot's poll has 186 more replies in the last 24 hours.

Still mysteriously reverts to the sum of the equation :

Guilty 69%
Innocent 31%

And no Pilot I don't spend all day watching it, the web page just sits there on my yet to be turned off computer and I click refresh when I'm back in the room..

I hope Hellman's court spends two minutes on the decision to aquit, and the more I think about those tv cameras in the defendant's faces, the more likely it all seems.

 

[LivingonaPrayer]

I am having a bit of deja vu back to where I was emotionally midway through the appeal, when C&V were off studying the DNA. I was really hopeful they would agree that their were issues with the DNA, thinking that they would agree with at least some of the points the defense had raised in the first trial, and had been dismissed by Massei. But I was also very wary that, given the history of this case, that anyone official in Italy would agree with what we pro-Knox and Sollecito folks had been saying for months. So I really could not get my mind around the idea that the report would come back in a way that was totally positive to the defense, I was hoping for dismissal of a good portion of the DNA as evidence.

Then, when the report came out, it went beyond my wildest expectations, completely agreeing with the contentions of the defense, and throwing in a few additional criticisms of their own! I was pleased, but a bit shocked that C&V had come down so hard on Stefanoni and the gang.

I have a similar feeling now. All seems to point to acquittal, but I can't quite bring myself to believe that Amanda and Raffaele will be thoroughly vindicated. I am taking it as a positive sign of what happened the last time I was surprised. I wasn't following this closely at this point of the first trial, so I don't know how that felt then. I have read some people feel that they are much more optomistic this time, and others say they felt that there would be an acquittal the last time, and were surprised.

Thoughts anyone?

I totally relate to your thoughts with respect to the time waiting for the outcome of the C & V report. My greatest concern was not that there would be issues but they would be downplayed and that the report would not be critical enough as this review could not be lukewarm it had to totally discredit the forensics. After reviewing the report I was shocked to the extent they took it. As I studied it further (my Italian is not that good yet) I realized that it was much more damning than I originally thought. They also did not limit it to just Stephanoni's work. They were able, thanks to the video taping, to broaden the scope and bring into question the investigators themselves. I believe that is why they sent 2 squad cars to Rome without a search warrant. This in my opinion was not done due to the critque of Stephanoni but the cloud it brought the entire investigation under and fully expected C & V to be investigated.

I am of the belief that if that report had not of been as critical as it was that we would not even be talking of an acquittal. Instead the most I would of hoped for was maybe a reduction in sentence.

They pointed out over 50+ errors. If one then takes into consideration the lies of not just Stephanoni but the prosecution and investigators, as well as trying to introduce falsified controls in the appeals, we are now talking misconduct. This has the attention of not just Italy, UK, and the USA but countries and media from around the world.

In the trial of the first instance, it was reported that prior to the end of the trial that they would be found guilty. We are seeing a reversal of the media opinion right down to the Pisas', Nadeau' et al.

It is my opinion that Hellmann does not want his legacy to be for not correcting an injustice. In fact I believe the opposite. This is a case that will be remembered and used as teaching tools. I have oft compared it initially to the Duke lacrosse team case of a prosecutor with too much power in which there were no checks and balances in place and the ones that were did not work.

The area that I am uncertain about is the charges against AK regarding PL.

 

[LivingonaPrayer]

I want to see the Sollecitos go after everyone involved.

And yep. I reckon they will......

I hope the Sollecitos do as well.

I do recall an interview with AK's mom and dad and they were asked about future action by them. In that interview they stated that once she was free that this was already planned and both families IMO have many avenues they may take from a legal standpoint

 

[Dan O.]

The area that I am uncertain about is the charges against AK regarding PL.

The charge represented in the Massei Report uses the wording of "knowledge" and "intent". If Amanda is found not to have been at the cottage that night, both knowledge of Patrick's actuall innocence and intent to divert the blame vanish.

 

[LivingonaPrayer]

The charge represented in the Massei Report uses the wording of "knowledge" and "intent". If Amanda is found not to have been at the cottage that night, both knowledge of Patrick's actuall innocence and intent to divert the blame vanish.

This is the part of Italian law that I am not up to speed on. The one thing I do question with respect to this would be the money awarded to her from the lawsuit she won. It was my understanding that PL has received this although I will admit it is not something that I have concentrated on thus any input on this aspect is greatly appreciated

 

[Poppy1016]

Yikes, my head is hurting. All we can do now is wait and hope. I must give kudos to those on both sides of the argument here. Both sides showed great convictions of what they believe. And like I said before I needed to hear both sides of the argument before forming my opinion. If they are acquitted, I hope there is no gloating here. No one in this case will be a winner. If justice is served Italy as a whole may win in the long run.

 

[komponisto]

I totally relate to your thoughts with respect to the time waiting for the outcome of the C & V report. My greatest concern was not that there would be issues but they would be downplayed and that the report would not be critical enough as this review could not be lukewarm it had to totally discredit the forensics. After reviewing the report I was shocked to the extent they took it. As I studied it further (my Italian is not that good yet) I realized that it was much more damning than I originally thought. They also did not limit it to just Stephanoni's work. They were able, thanks to the video taping, to broaden the scope and bring into question the investigators themselves. I believe that is why they sent 2 squad cars to Rome without a search warrant. This in my opinion was not done due to the critque of Stephanoni but the cloud it brought the entire investigation under and fully expected C & V to be investigated.

I am of the belief that if that report had not of been as critical as it was that we would not even be talking of an acquittal. Instead the most I would of hoped for was maybe a reduction in sentence.

They pointed out over 50+ errors. If one then takes into consideration the lies of not just Stephanoni but the prosecution and investigators, as well as trying to introduce falsified controls in the appeals, we are now talking misconduct. This has the attention of not just Italy, UK, and the USA but countries and media from around the world.

In the trial of the first instance, it was reported that prior to the end of the trial that they would be found guilty. We are seeing a reversal of the media opinion right down to the Pisas', Nadeau' et al.

It is my opinion that Hellmann does not want his legacy to be for not correcting an injustice. In fact I believe the opposite. This is a case that will be remembered and used as teaching tools. I have oft compared it initially to the Duke lacrosse team case of a prosecutor with too much power in which there were no checks and balances in place and the ones that were did not work.

The area that I am uncertain about is the charges against AK regarding PL.

I am inclined to agree here, but -- if we assume that AK will be acquitted of the murder -- I don't think PL's case was particularly helped by his lawyer (Pacelli) ranting about AK being a murderous witch/sorceress of doom.

 

[komponisto]

This is the part of Italian law that I am not up to speed on. The one thing I do question with respect to this would be the money awarded to her from the lawsuit she won. It was my understanding that PL has received this although I will admit it is not something that I have concentrated on thus any input on this aspect is greatly appreciated

My understanding is that neither award has been paid, because both are under appeal.

 

[AmyStrange]

Patrick's Slander case against Amanda...

-

Patrick's problems do not hinge on Amanda's "accusation" at all, but with the police arresting him without any kind of investigation.

Amanda, Patrick, and Raffaele's arrest had nothing to do with Amanda's statement, because if it did, why did they also arrest Raffaele? She didn't say a thing about him in her statement.

If they didn't arrest them because of Amanda's statements than Patrick has no case against her. He has a case against the ILE and only the ILE,

In my opinion of course,

Dave

 

[RandyN]

To revisit a topic discussed in great length:.
1) Other than the ludicrous but entertaining you tubes of young "spidermen", I do not think anyone ever suggested Rudy "jumped up" to gain entrance
2) Look closely at the myriad of pictures of the wall in question.
Unless your 2nd floor apartment wall has the same abundance of that chalky residue (efflorescence), I suggest your conclusion concerning comparative absence of scuff marks is flawed.

This thread has gone all WINDY today...I dont have time to catch up so I will leave it at this guilter myth...errr ahhhh demythed...


http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=23382

 

[bolint]

The appeal does say this

What you quote is not relevant as the period in question is the night of Nov5/6. There is no documented police presence at 1AM and 2:47AM Nov 6 at Raffaele's place.

So the alleged web search at that time is very interesting.
That's why it is strange that the appeal does not push it.

If it exists at all.

Activities. Playing around with it by the cops seems rather obvious, and this before they managed to fry 3 hard drives. Very professional.

Before lambasting at least a minimal proof should be clearly stated that "they were playing around with the computer".

What also is interesting is that the defense seemed a little suspicious of certain things regarding the computer conultant's report (the one trying to determine what happened to the computers and if they could be recovered). This quote from the defense 507 motion for further expertise (all denied, denied, denied [at that point in time]).

What's you point?

 

[davefoc]

One of the things that I've wondered about is the destroyed hard disks.

What's up with that? There are only two ways to make a hard disk unreadable to the point that a specialty data recovery center couldn't retrieve data that I am aware of:

1. Physically destroying the hard disk to the point that it is not technologically possible to recover data from the disks in the hard disk
2. Running a program to repeatedly overwrite the data such that the data is obliterated.

Of course lots of things can make data recovery from a disk drive difficult, but making it impossible is a different animal. So what's going on here?

Is there any information available about exactly what the police did to cause a hard disk to be destroyed? Back in the olden days, one could plug in the parallel interface cables backwards which wasn't so happy for the hard disk but I'm not so sure with serial interface hard disks.

On a related subject:
Was Stardust on the hard disk or was it accessed off the internet? If it was accessed off the internet isn't there a positive time stamp some place about when it was being accessed? And if it wasn't on the internet why is it that some people seem to be expecting that an internet access should have occurred when the movie was being watched/downloaded?