Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[js202]

There is a man before her, defending himself against accusations based on her confession.
Why does she need prior consultation with a lawyer to say that all she had said about him was baseless?

It has already been explained to you that Amanda Knox, a girl barely 20 years old, had no way of knowing whether or not what the police had told her about Lumumba was true. For rational persons, it is also eminently reasonable and understandable that the police were under no compunction to arrest this man and close his place of business, solely based on the word of this young girl. In other words, without any evidence whatsoever of his involvement. Unless, of course, they wanted to.

It is also reasonable and understandable to assume that a traumatized girl, denied legal representation and told by her parents to shut up until she had such -- and, not incidentally, recently burned quite severely for talking -- would do exactly this: shut up.

The guilter position -- in a word, yours -- was recently summed up nicely, upthread, with one word: speculation. There may be some filigree with regard to your opinion, but like all guilters, you rely on speculation.

Why? Because you have no evidence that stands up to the light of day.

 

[pilot padron]

Enjoying your input, But......

How tall is Rudy Guede? I see references that he's tall and skinny, and a basketball player, so I suppose breaking the window, then jumping up to put your hands on the sill and lifting yourself up is possible. The whole "no scuff marks" thing is silly. I've "broken" into (my own!) 2nd floor apartment a similar way and I didn't leave any scuff marks.

If other ways of entry were barred then it would be a plausible choice. Still, wouldn't Meredith have reacted? I suppose he might have tried the door first and she was asleep. Then again she was dressed wasn't she?

The window thing doesn't make a lot of sense, but as you say it doesn't implicate Knox and Sollecito anyway. I noticed too that some "guilters" use a lack of Rudy's DNA in that room as evidence he was never in there, but a lack of Knox and Sollecito DNA in Meredith's room is dismissed as unimportant.

To revisit a topic discussed in great length:.
1) Other than the ludicrous but entertaining you tubes of young "spidermen", I do not think anyone ever suggested Rudy "jumped up" to gain entrance
2) Look closely at the myriad of pictures of the wall in question.
Unless your 2nd floor apartment wall has the same abundance of that chalky residue (efflorescence), I suggest your conclusion concerning comparative absence of scuff marks is flawed.

 

[pilot padron]

Revisiting windows redux

well that covers that then.

The shiny shoe lawyer climbing wall pictures never show him doing much other than standing on the grate.

And Hammerite from PMF showed "the rest of the story" with a final slide that is usually conveniently omitted showing the nattily attired climber crouched, almost falling, and holding on for dear life.

The pictures would therefore "cover that then" IMHO only if
1) they showed someone full up and actually going thru the window
2) and BTW, not disturbing all the glass under him remaining on the sill after he slithered in.

 

[misteratunta]

I've never really harboured any rage or hatred against Rudy Guede. I guess as a rational human being, I don't tend to harbour such feelings for the perpetrators of crimes against people I've never met.

However, something about the way this video has been put together has roused my rage. When his photos appeared at around 4minutes in I nearly put my fist through my monitor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYJiZq3TQh0&feature=player_embedded#!

Possibly the juxtaposition between knowing he did it and having to listen to people defend or make excuses for him has primed me for such feelings...

 

[Chris_Halkides]

do what your lawyer tells you to do

There is a man before her, defending himself against accusations based on her confession.
Why does she need prior consultation with a lawyer to say that all she had said about him was baseless?
(Spare me the "everybody knows that it was internalised" explanation)



How do we know that it was police's action that changed that timestamp?
How is it that Stardust is not even mentioned in the appeal?

bolint,

The timestamp that gives the last access to the Stardust file is now in the early morning hours of 6 November, when only police were able to enter his apartment. The previous file access time was lost; therefore, it may or may not have been exculpatory.

I am not certain of the date when Amanda's memory came back. That information may be in her diary. If I were ever daft enough to speak to police without a lawyer in such a way as to get myself arrested, I would hope that I would not repeat that mistake by continuing to speak with them and possibly doing my own legal position further harm. I would hope I would subsequently only talk to the authorities as directed by my lawyer. That is what they are being paid to do.

Once Amanda was arrested, PLE became responsible for what happened to Patrick. That they failed to release him after a lengthy interview with the Swiss professor (and kept his bar closed for months afterward) is entirely on their heads. That Patrick cannot see this is no reason to blame Amanda. MOO.

 

[Supernaut]

Maresca's display on Tuesday .....

... adds fuel to a suspicion I've held about him for a while;

that he is a psychopath (high-functioning) - apparently unable to feel or react as normal people do, and thus also prone to overstepping the boundries of decency and morality without realising he has done so.

Like all psychopaths he is entirely bereft of these qualities - he can mimic them but his judgement can fail spectacularly, as it did in this instance.

 

[icerat]

To revisit a topic discussed in great length:.
1) Other than the ludicrous but entertaining you tubes of young "spidermen", I do not think anyone ever suggested Rudy "jumped up" to gain entrance

Not sure if you misunderstood me, but a poster said above that "Defence lawyer Maori ordered someone to climb exactly that way and presented that reconstruction yesterday"

2) Look closely at the myriad of pictures of the wall in question.
Unless your 2nd floor apartment wall has the same abundance of that chalky residue (efflorescence), I suggest your conclusion concerning comparative absence of scuff marks is flawed.

Ok, from this photo it looks like it would be much easier to climb up, so "jump" is not the right word. A ladder is even provided, though I've read some suggestions the grill was added later?

 

[Katody Matrass]

Where can I find the details?

In Massei and in the appeals, for starters.

If true then it is extremely stupid, indeed.
Is it true?

Yes it is.

If only I have one.

But I would expect at least a little from the defence.
How is it that they don't show anything specific from their sure-fire winning evidence?
Do they think that Hellmann will plough through the screensaver logs and Mac admin handbooks Saturday afternoon?

Where did you get that idea? They filed a summary of their experts finding.

No. It is good as it is. In order to conclude the 6 minute claim the screensaver's autoactivation should be set to only a few minutes.

So?

This, however, makes watching films very annoying.

Surely you're joking. Any sensible media player disables screensaver during playback.

If, however, the screensaver is not active during the alleged film watching then how could they base the claimed human activity on it?

Common sense. You're not seriously claiming they left movies playing to get alibi for the murder? Why then didn't they browse the web a bit, too?

Are you giving the lie to Raffaele? In his diary he says:
"I remember that I surfed the Internet for a while"

He was confused. The defence didn't claim browsing activity apart from one http connection after midnight related to itunes playback, simple as that.

Do you think he lied? It makes zero sense to lie about something so easily verifiable.

 

[lionking]

Possibly the juxtaposition between knowing he did it and having to listen to people defend or make excuses for him has primed me for such feelings...

Where have people defended or excused Rudy?

 

[Katody Matrass]

So she could not recognize Lumumba before Matteini without consulting a lawyer?

If she just met a lawyer and didn't have time to consult, I think the first thing he told her was to remain silent.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

I hope someone learns from this video

I've never really harboured any rage or hatred against Rudy Guede. I guess as a rational human being, I don't tend to harbour such feelings for the perpetrators of crimes against people I've never met.

However, something about the way this video has been put together has roused my rage. When his photos appeared at around 4minutes in I nearly put my fist through my monitor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYJiZq3TQh0&feature=player_embedded#!

Possibly the juxtaposition between knowing he did it and having to listen to people defend or make excuses for him has primed me for such feelings...

misteratunta,

In the video we see the forensic police handling evidence that we know later tested positive for DNA. Yet they touch the jacket (for example) and just go to the next item without changing gloves. Several of us have repeatedly documented that changing gloves between handling evidence items is recommended to avoid contamination. Sometimes I feel angry about this level of carelessness and disregard for evidence. MOO.

 

[icerat]

The shiny shoe lawyer climbing wall pictures never show him doing much other than standing on the grate.

Probably the photo I just linked? I have ZERO doubt that when I was younger I'd be able to get through the window that way.

The pictures would therefore "cover that then" IMHO only if
1) they showed someone full up and actually going thru the window
2) and BTW, not disturbing all the glass under him remaining on the sill after he slithered in.

Is this a picture of the window in question? Looks to me like it has a very wide ledge, I wouldn't expect much, if any, glass to be knocked down the outside from that. If anything it would be getting dragged in as you drag your body in, not out.

Anyway, this conversation has certainly addressed my only major question over the crime. He clearly could have climbed in via the window in question.

 

[JREF2010]

A word about the "false accusation". Some of the facts that Kaosium wrote about are very clear now.

On 2nd of November the body is discovered.

On the 3rd Amanda's and Raffaele's phones are already wiretapped by the cops. They go through the phone records and discover that on the night of murder Amanda exchanges text messages with Lumumba, right after then her and Raffaele's phones go silent for the night. She set up a meeting.

They look through Lumumba's phone record and see that his phone pinged in the vicinity of Via Della Pergola on the night of the murder. The next day his IMEI number changed. He swapped his phone to cover his movements. They know he's an immigrant and he's black. They got their murderer.

They start putting screws to Amanda, interrogating her night and day. She is sleep deprived and feels "they treat her like a criminal".

From the wiretaps they know Amanda's mother is coming to Perugia on November 6 to take her away. They have to act quick.

On November 5 They organize a special night. Everybody is there at the police station. Mignini waiting, Giobbi comes from Rome to overseer, all of the squadra mobile cop heroes. After a few hours they break her, she "buckles and admits what they knew to be true". They arrest Lumumba before dawn and organize a triumphant press conference. Case closed.

and in addition to the phone call taps, some rooms in the questura were bugged, and squad member Colatone was part of this work. The conversations were documented as should be. (it is supporting evidence that the interrogation was likely recorded and then made to disappear).

 

[Chris_Halkides]

he received mitigation that was not appealed

Where have people defended or excused Rudy?

Not here, but elsewhere they have. And I think the shortness of his sentence (16 years) and the chance that he will get time off for good behavior speaks ill of those who could have pressed for a longer sentence.

 

[Rolfe]

Within the last two days I've noted posts (mainly by Jester) both reviling people for "sticking up for the person who murdered Meredith" and criticising anyone for describing Rudy as a drifter, claiming that he was a solid upstanding young citizen.

Rolfe.

 

[Grinder]

This is a statement of fact or an opinion?

It is a fact that the police knew Curatolo was dealing years before the trial (he was charged after the first trial for the dealing)and he stated that he was a daily heroin dealer. He had to have money for the heroin. Either he was selling or getting enough money from another source.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Not sure if you misunderstood me, but a poster said above that "Defence lawyer Maori ordered someone to climb exactly that way and presented that reconstruction yesterday"



Ok, from this photo it looks like it would be much easier to climb up, so "jump" is not the right word. A ladder is even provided, though I've read some suggestions the grill was added later?

The grill was there at the time of the crime.

The owner later added one to the window upstairs.

 

[icerat]

The grill was there at the time of the crime.

The owner later added one to the window upstairs.

So there was a freakin' ladder on the wall below the window and people claim he couldn't have climbed up there?

 

[misteratunta]

Where have people defended or excused Rudy?

Mignini for a start.

I've also seen guilters expressly defending him, saying Amanda put him up to it etc. etc.

It's also implicit in the words of every guilter who screams for Amanda's blood but who has never expressed the remotest issue with the fact that Rudy Guede could be free in under a decade.

 

[bolint]

The timestamp that gives the last access to the Stardust file is now in the early morning hours of 6 November, when only police were able to enter his apartment.

We are still far from "the police caused the change in the timestamp of Stardust".
Let"s get closer.

What is this changed timestamp?

The previous file access time was lost; therefore, it may or may not have been exculpatory.

But this is the Ancient Finns' Phone Argument.

I am not certain of the date when Amanda's memory came back. That information may be in her diary.

I don't think it ever went away. She always knew full well what's going on.

If I were ever daft enough to speak to police without a lawyer in such a way as to get myself arrested, I would hope that I would not repeat that mistake by continuing to speak with them and possibly doing my own legal position further harm. I would hope I would subsequently only talk to the authorities as directed by my lawyer. That is what they are being paid to do.

It's a good strategy. Especially if you are guilty.

Once Amanda was arrested, PLE became responsible for what happened to Patrick. That they failed to release him after a lengthy interview with the Swiss professor (and kept his bar closed for months afterward) is entirely on their heads. That Patrick cannot see this is no reason to blame Amanda. MOO.

I think that a large part of the damage to Lumumba was indeed caused by the police, similarly to the cottage owner, too, but that does not save Amanda from the false accusation. She knew what she were doing and what she was causing.