Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Steft50]

This just seems to be a really simple case complicated beyond all reason. And the result of these complications is that two completely innocent bystanders have lost four years of their young lives and been irrevocably altered by the experience.

Rudy Guede, a habitual cat-burglar, decided to rob the flat where Meredith lived. He knew there were a couple of foreign students there, and may have anticipated good pickings. While he was in the flat, Meredith returned home. Some sort of confrontation ensued, which escalated to sexual assault and murder. Not necessarily in that order. Rudy fled with some small, easily-portable items and cash, but when one of the mobile phones started to ring he realised this might not have been such a good idea. He accidentally initiated calls to stored numbers (the first on the list being "Abbey") while trying to turn the phone off. Panicking, he ditched them. High as a kite, he went dancing after he'd cleaned up, possibly thinking he might establish an alibi. He later fled the country.

Amanda spent the night with Raffaele, in his flat, doing whatever new lovers with some cannabis do in that situation. Amanda got a message saying she didn't have to go to work, and she turned her phone off to prevent any message reversing that decision from getting through. The next morning she returned home to shower and collect some things she wanted for the planned trip, and began to realise all was not well. In a foreign country, and not speaking the language very well, she returned to seek Raffaele's advice. He was unsure what to do for the best, and hesitated to apply serious force to Meredith's door. He called his sister, who told him to call 112.

And the rest is just a bunch of incompetent and arrogant cops jumping to wildly premature conclusions, then digging themselves even deeper as evidence emerged to contradict these conclusions, in a CYA scenario of escalating dishonesty and lies.

The Norfolk Four case is an extremely close parallel. Why do some people find this so hard to understand?

Rolfe.

Well said.

 

[Rolfe]

And if they'd just held off until the forensic results were in, they'd have got Rudy in exactly the way they did get Rudy, and everyone would have been congratulating them for very good reason. They'd have solved the case by competent investigation, even though the forensics were a bit sloppy. The Kerchers would have been spared an awful lot of grief, and Knox and Sollecito an absolutely unimaginable injustice.

Rolfe.

 

[js202]

Rudy left his spoor all over Meredith's body and environment, and even Stefanoni wasn't so incompetent as to miss it. They'd have got him, quite easily, and with very little fuss if only someone hadn't indulged in some absolutely tragic gun-jumping in the mean time. Which makes me think maybe this was his first murder, as his DNA doesn't seem to have been linked to any others.

Rolfe.

Rolfe, I'm sure you know that FBI men Steven Moore and John Douglas referred to this as a disorganized crime scene. In other words, Meredith Kercher's tragic death was a frenzied killing, without attention to niceties like minimizing traces of oneself.

Guede may have begun to hone his craft as a burglar, but, in terms of his murderous tendencies, he was no Hannibal Lecter.

 

[AmyStrange]

Rudy left his spoor all over Meredith's body and environment, and even Stefanoni wasn't so incompetent as to miss it. They'd have got him, quite easily, and with very little fuss if only someone hadn't indulged in some absolutely tragic gun-jumping in the mean time. Which makes me think maybe this was his first murder, as his DNA doesn't seem to have been linked to any others.

Rolfe.

-

That's a valid arguement Rolfe,

but isn't it true that they had to go get a sample of his DNA from a toothbrush that they found at his flat so they could make comparisons to the DNA found at this murder after his friend turned him in, which makes me wonder if they had his DNA before this murder to compare to the other (rumoured) superwitness murders.

I'd still like to know where he was during those two other (rumoured) murders to which Curatolo was rumoured to be a super witness,

Dave

 

[theRealBob]

I'd say that by far the most likely explanation for the presence of Knox's lamp in Meredith's room is that Meredith herself borrowed it, either on the 31st or the 1st. She might have wanted to use it to apply her Halloween makeup in front of her own mirror, or she might have wanted to use it to read a book at her desk instead of moving her own lamp from her bedside. Meredith knew that Knox was spending very little time in her own (Knox's) room, so probably reasoned - correctly - that Knox would not mind if Meredith borrowed her lamp.

I've always thought it was Rudy who used the lamp.
Possibly for dimmer lighting as the sight of Meredith dying offended and sickened him.
Another possibility is that the lamp suited him when he was having sex with her.
Another is that when he was still in the room after the attack he didn't want light seeping out from under her door in case someone unexpectedly came home...

 

[Rolfe]

I see Deanna Knox is now being labelled a liar on .org because she said the graffiti were "scratched" into the table at the prison. Apparently you can't take anything sharp enough into a prison visit to scratch anything into a tabletop.

These people can't ever have been children. You can do a pretty good job with a simple ball-point pen, on soft cheap wood. Millions of classrooms worldwide testify to this.

Also, nobody could possibly have written the words "Amanda is a whore" in ENGLISH so that her visitors could read it, not in Italy, where even three words of English are beyond the capabilities of anyone....

What's the point of all this?

Because you see it was made up, not true, and was a talking point fed to Deanna by the Gogerty-Marriott supertanker who have been paid $2 million and counting so far to manipulate public opinion to be favourable to Knox. They're paying everyone here who posts as if they believe in Amanda's innocence, and they probably paid Conti and Vecchiotti to falsify their report to the court.

This is the sort of delusional nonsense that those who have become over-invested in a ridiculous fantasy-world are reduced to. I'm not kidding.
http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewto...b97b443c0509587e8c5153ac65&start=2000#p101594

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find that the spouses/ relatives of C & V have landed plum jobs, opened Swiss accounts, have exclusive use of a lovely villa in the south of France, etc..

Rolfe.

 

[AmyStrange]

Rolfe, I'm sure you know that FBI men Steven Moore and John Douglas referred to this as a disorganized crime scene. In other words, Meredith Kercher's tragic death was a frenzied killing, without attention to niceties like minimizing traces of oneself.

Guede may have begun to hone his craft as a burglar, but, in terms of his murderous tendencies, he was no Hannibal Lecter.

js202,

interesting. Reminds me of the Sorority House murders that Ted Bundy was convicted of it Florida. He went from room to room clubbing girls over the head while they were asleep in their beds.

By then, it can be argued he was an accomplished murderer with at least a couple dozen murders under his belt by then. Some profilers have explained it (I'm paraphrasing) as a kind of damn bursting. He had gone so long trying to contain his murderous impulses that when the damn finally did break, he went into a uncontrollable murderous frenzy.

Sound familiar?

Dave

 

[theRealBob]

There are comments here saying that Hellman allowing the verdict to be televised shows that he's going to aquit, because he wouldn't beam Raff and Amanda's disappointed faces around the world.

Massei's guilty verdict was televised.
I do think we overdo the certainty of the aquittal here at times. It appears to be more likely that they will be set free, but you can't trust anything in this case.
To those who thought that they'd go free in the last trial, Massei was of an obviously different cast to Hellman in virtually every little decision he made. There wasn't really anything he ever granted to the defense.

 

[Caper]

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/dan-zu...atal-gift-of-beauty-the-trials-of-amanda-knox


live podcast playing right now!

 

[Steft50]

I see Deanna Knox is now being labelled a liar on .org because she said the graffiti were "scratched" into the table at the prison. Apparently you can't take anything sharp enough into a prison visit to scratch anything into a tabletop.

These people can't ever have been children. You can do a pretty good job with a simple ball-point pen, on soft cheap wood. Millions of classrooms worldwide testify to this.

Also, nobody could possibly have written the words "Amanda is a whore" in ENGLISH so that her visitors could read it, not in Italy, where even three words of English are beyond the capabilities of anyone....

What's the point of all this?

Because you see it was made up, not true, and was a talking point fed to Deanna by the Gogerty-Marriott supertanker who have been paid $2 million and counting so far to manipulate public opinion to be favourable to Knox. They're paying everyone here who posts as if they believe in Amanda's innocence, and they probably paid Conti and Vecchiotti to falsify their report to the court.

This is the sort of delusional nonsense that those who have become over-invested in a ridiculous fantasy-world are reduced to. I'm not kidding.



Rolfe.

Well dang it! ing:

If I had known I was going to get paid for my opinion leaning towards the defense I would have posted ages ago!! Who shall I send the payment info too?

 

[AmyStrange]

There are comments here saying that Hellman allowing the verdict to be televised shows that he's going to aquit, because he wouldn't beam Raff and Amanda's disappointed faces around the world.

Massei's guilty verdict was televised.
I do think we overdo the certainty of the aquittal here at times. It appears to be more likely that they will be set free, but you can't trust anything in this case.
To those who thought that they'd go free in the last trial, Massei was of an obviously different cast to Hellman in virtually every little decision he made. There wasn't really anything he ever granted to the defense.

-

Bob,

I guarantee Amanda and Raffaele will be acquited. Here is the post where I explain my reasoning for saying this:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7619778#post7619778

Dave

 

[smkovalinksy]

Well said.

I second that.

 

[Rolfe]

js202,

interesting. Reminds me of the Sorority House murders that Ted Bundy was convicted of it Florida. He went from room to room clubbing girls over the head while they were asleep in their beds.

By then, it can be argued he was an accomplished murderer with at least a couple dozen murders under his belt by then. Some profilers have explained it (I'm paraphrasing) as a kind of damn bursting. He had gone so long trying to contain his murderous impulses that when the damn finally did break, he went into a uncontrollable murderous frenzy.

Sound familiar?

Dave

What I find odd here is that it is Amanda who is demonised and not Raffaele. But there's really nothing against her at all. Condoms are recommended for anyone who is sexually active and hardly identify a sex maniac. Vibrators - oh gimme a break, someone should tell these prudes how many virgins have the things. She wasn't good at cleaning and she didn't always flush the loo. Next you'll be telling me she didn't always wait for the green man at crossings either! And even her little story had to be re-written before it could be made to look creepy.

Raffaele collected knives. They didn't like his comic collection (which is a bit less creepy than the vibrator even, but it's the sort of thing that got the West Memphis Three convicted). Someone said he had bestiality porn. This is all a bit damning, isn't it? And he lost his virginity only six days earlier. Maybe that was the dam bursting, and he was able to act out these vicious sadistic fantasies he'd had in his mind all that time.

OK, it's nuts, and if it was true Amanda would have been the corpse. But why didn't we hear any of that being levelled at the boy? Why only Amanda the she-devil?

I think it really is some sort of deep misogyny. Amanda was the one who wiggled her hips, and who burst into tears at a perfectly understandable moment. OK they both ate the pizza, but it's Amanda who is the manipulative, sex-mad, sadistic temptress.

Where do these people find their reading matter?

Rolfe.

 

[charlatan]

And if they'd just held off until the forensic results were in, they'd have got Rudy in exactly the way they did get Rudy, and everyone would have been congratulating them for very good reason. They'd have solved the case by competent investigation, even though the forensics were a bit sloppy. The Kerchers would have been spared an awful lot of grief, and Knox and Sollecito an absolutely unimaginable injustice.

Absolutely. If cops had found and arrested Guede before November 5th there is no doubt the crime would have been seen as a tragic but not unusual break-in and murder. Amanda and Raffaele would never have never entered the discussion. Only police incompetence and Mignini's fevered imagination tie them to this crime.

 

[Dougm]

Because you see it was made up, not true, and was a talking point fed to Deanna by the Gogerty-Marriott supertanker who have been paid $2 million and counting so far to manipulate public opinion to be favourable to Knox. They're paying everyone here who posts as if they believe in Amanda's innocence, and they probably paid Conti and Vecchiotti to falsify their report to the court.

Hey, I have done my share of posting!! I have a message for that Gogerty-Marriott bunch!

SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!

 

[Rolfe]

Absolutely. If cops had found and arrested Guede before November 5th there is no doubt the crime would have been seen as a tragic but not unusual break-in and murder. Amanda and Raffaele would never have never entered the discussion. Only police incompetence and Mignini's fevered imagination tie them to this crime.

But how could they have known to find and arrest him as early as that? It took time for the fingerprint to come up against his immigration records, which was what did it, and by then he was in Germany I think. Then they had to get his DNA to see it it matched the unknown that was coming up from the crime scene. It wasn't immediate.

But they still tracked him down, with the help of his friend of course, and that part of the investigation went perfectly. A fair collar, competently carried out.

If only it hadn't been for the side-show and the intransigence and the face-saving....

Rolfe.

 

[AmyStrange]

What I find odd here is that it is Amanda who is demonised and not Raffaele. But there's really nothing against her at all. Condoms are recommended for anyone who is sexually active and hardly identify a sex maniac. Vibrators - oh gimme a break, someone should tell these prudes how many virgins have the things. She wasn't good at cleaning and she didn't always flush the loo. Next you'll be telling me she didn't always wait for the green man at crossings either! And even her little story had to be re-written before it could be made to look creepy.

Raffaele collected knives. They didn't like his comic collection (which is a bit less creepy than the vibrator even, but it's the sort of thing that got the West Memphis Three convicted). Someone said he had bestiality porn. This is all a bit damning, isn't it? And he lost his virginity only six days earlier. Maybe that was the dam bursting, and he was able to act out these vicious sadistic fantasies he'd had in his mind all that time.

OK, it's nuts, and if it was true Amanda would have been the corpse. But why didn't we hear any of that being levelled at the boy? Why only Amanda the she-devil?

I think it really is some sort of deep misogyny. Amanda was the one who wiggled her hips, and who burst into tears at a perfectly understandable moment. OK they both ate the pizza, but it's Amanda who is the manipulative, sex-mad, sadistic temptress.

Where do these people find their reading matter?

Rolfe.

-

Rolfe,

maybe they just have issues with women who are free of sexual hang-ups? Many of the women accused and hanged in Salem were of an independant nature and had a little money and didn't need to bow down and kiss the feet of the local men in the village. Maybe there's a clue here.

Maybe they have a kind of weird reverse Oedipus complex going on. Who knows for sure?

I have my own theories, but it is weird how it's all Amanda this, Amanda that, Amanda all the time and, oh yeah, what's his name?

Dave

 

[Rolfe]

I tend to agree, Dave.

Rolfe.

 

[JREF2010]

There are comments here saying that Hellman allowing the verdict to be televised shows that he's going to aquit, because he wouldn't beam Raff and Amanda's disappointed faces around the world.

Massei's guilty verdict was televised.
I do think we overdo the certainty of the aquittal here at times. It appears to be more likely that they will be set free, but you can't trust anything in this case.
To those who thought that they'd go free in the last trial, Massei was of an obviously different cast to Hellman in virtually every little decision he made. There wasn't really anything he ever granted to the defense.

It was a news clip, la stampia or something.

here's what I think is different than the Massei trial...
today the President of the Court, Claudio Pratillo Helllmann, gave his permission to "live television coverage and photo shoots during the reading of the device." In the front row, to film the reactions of two main suspects, including the likes of CNN networks worldwide. The fateful verdict is expected on Saturday and Monday, but for many the game is not yet closed.

is the news piece totally correct ? IDK...
I havent found any other articles claiming the same.

I dont recall, maybe Massei did allow photographers in the front row to film the reaction of the suspects?

that sounds almost sadistic, if its not an acquittal.

I guess we can guess for a few more days....then the verdict will be read.

 

[smkovalinksy]

There are comments here saying that Hellman allowing the verdict to be televised shows that he's going to aquit, because he wouldn't beam Raff and Amanda's disappointed faces around the world.

Massei's guilty verdict was televised.
I do think we overdo the certainty of the aquittal here at times. It appears to be more likely that they will be set free, but you can't trust anything in this case.
To those who thought that they'd go free in the last trial, Massei was of an obviously different cast to Hellman in virtually every little decision he made. There wasn't really anything he ever granted to the defense.

I agree; despite hopeful signs it is not a done deal, in any sense. We don't know if these 6 lay persons on the jury have been absorbing all the propaganda about Knox for 4 years, or if they have a proclivity to view her and Sollecito as suspect. In the first trial, I don't recall actually seeing the verdict live, though. There were reporters on the courthouse steps moments after it was announced, which they translated into English. But I did not know the defendants faces were shown.