"Mass casualties" at crash at Nevada airshow

[Beerina]

My thoughts were the same. And why do the planes even need to be over the crowd?

More exciting that way.


Of course, the number of deaths from these things is trivial in the bigger scheme of things.

However, politicians, looking to "ride to the rescue", to save us from statistically insignificant irrelevancies, will try to pass laws against 75 year olds, or flying over crowds in races like this, and other asininities.

But hey, most people will applaud the idiocies of the new laws aborning. Most people are idiots.

 

[FattyCatty]

According to here http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/...start=60 the plane used some kind of boil off cooling system.

Thanks for the information and the link. Yeah, they seem to agree on that forum that it is boil off steam (post on page 5, 51fixer @10:54pm). Another interesting post on page 5 @11:00 pm (they don't number their posts):

Saw a news report that the Huey was an aircraft on static display, they gassed it up and used it to help get folks to the airport.

AAFO.com has a statement saying he lost an elevator trim tab, as shows on the AP photo.

The plane did a rapid roll to the right and went in vertically just after getting on the main straight..
There is no pilot visible in the cockpit moments before impact.
Typically, all that is seen is his head...

According to a post (page 6 @11:21 pm on the forum linked above:

In the photos being circulated on Yahoo, one seriously bothers me, and it is the pic BEFORE the pic that has been shown here, it shows a side view of 'Ghost' alledgedly just seconds before impact...and I gotta ask...WHERE is the pilot? ALL I see in that pic is plexiglass, no hint of a helmet or anyone in the cockpit...and comparing it with other photos of 'Ghost' on takeoff and in the air, you can ALWAYS see the pilot/Leeward in the plexiglass.....can someone smarter than me post that photo up here for folks to see?

Just putting it out there....

Mark

It's a doctored up static side view of the airplane. You'll notice that it's viewed perfectly down the wing line. Not an authentic photo of the incident.

ETA: After reading a more recent post from the above-linked forum, I have to apologize to I Ratant. The poster above corrected himself:

I went back and looked at that image, and it's credited to AP, and captioned as something shot turing the incident. If you're right, Randy (and I'm NOT questioning your expertise here), then either Yahoo tied the caption to the wrong image, or the AP shooter's in some major trouble.

Nope, I agree -- I was incorrect. Went back and looked at all the factors, and I agree...it's legitimate and pretty amazing.

Sorry I posted before reading all of that thread.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

According to here http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/...start=60 the plane used some kind of boil off cooling system.

That forum has some very interesting entries. Thanks for the link.

 

[FattyCatty]

erwinl, that is a very interesting site you referenced. Thank you again. Here's the two latest posts today at the time I was reading the thread (the first @11:24 am, the second @11:37 am):

It appears that Jimmy's final moments were spent trying to save lives and avoid the crowd as much as possible, but Galloping Ghost was just not able to let him do it. As bad as it is, Jimmy is a hero for preventing it from being worse.

Not a slight on Jimmy or his memory in any way, but this is just not a reasonably honest way of describing what appears to have occurred, especially given the photos of what appear to be his helmet slumped over the controls forward. Witnesses say the throttle was still at full bore as it impacted -- that's not the actions of an airman heroically fighting a sick airplane to avoid innocent casualties.

Mr. Leeward was a phenomenal pilot and fantastic person anyway -- there's no need to spin a heroic yarn to make him any more of what he all ready was.

Blue Skies, Jimmy.

I have to agree with Randy's assessment. I was 30-40 yards to the east of the accident and there was no control over that plane and he came in with full power. The sound has been haunting me. The scream of the plane as she came in and the smell afterward is stuck in my ears and nose.

I don't even want to tell you what I saw...I just count my blessings I was that distance away and pray for those injured and those that passed (two more overnight).

The second post really brings home how sad and scary this crash was.

 

[I Ratant]

No aero-demonstrations take place nor are allowed to be over the spectators.
The race course at Reno is a good mile from the spectators..
...
The best view of the race is from out at the last pylon before the planes come onto the straight...
They only let photographers out there...
.
At Mohave, the course was less well restricted... and Lloyd Hamilton in his Sea Fury made a "close approach" when I got out -on- the course...

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

More exciting that way.


Of course, the number of deaths from these things is trivial in the bigger scheme of things.

However, politicians, looking to "ride to the rescue", to save us from statistically insignificant irrelevancies, will try to pass laws against 75 year olds, or flying over crowds in races like this, and other asininities.

But hey, most people will applaud the idiocies of the new laws aborning. Most people are idiots.

Politicians, but also sometimes grieving family members on a mission. A young girl died here a few years ago of an allergic reaction. There was something with a lack of emergency epinephrine (expired or not available) and there was a delay calling 911. Our EMS system is the EMTs arrive first and call the Medics if the situation calls for more advanced care. The EMTs didn't give epi, the Medics did. The girl didn't make it.

Really the time it took the Medics to get there was only minutes and probably did not contribute as much to the girl's death as the delay calling 911 did. But the family went on a successful mission to get EMTs to carry epi. Now the fire departments in the entire county carry the most expensive kind of epi, EpiPens. At $30 each and they expire every year or so, the county now buys one for every single emergency vehicle, there is training, there are laws regulating disposing of the epi and some of it gets into the environment anyway because they practice on oranges then toss the oranges out (illegally I might add but no one seems to have noticed yet). All in all the cost is extremely high. I think in the couple years since the death maybe the EMTs have used the EpiPens a couple times and never in a situation that the Medics couldn't have brought theirs.

It's such a waste of limited resources just so a grieving family could feel like they did something in honor of their dead child.

 

[rwguinn]

No aero-demonstrations take place nor are allowed to be over the spectators.
The race course at Reno is a good mile from the spectators..
...
The best view of the race is from out at the last pylon before the planes come onto the straight...
They only let photographers out there...
.
At Mohave, the course was less well restricted... and Lloyd Hamilton in his Sea Fury made a "close approach" when I got out -on- the course...

The TURNS are more than a mile from the spectators--the straightaway is usually parallel to and a few hundred feet away from it, on the side away from the spectators, so as to get the full power feel and photo-ops of the event, as I recall from Mojave.
But you're right--nothing can legally take place over the spectators.

 

[AdMan]

.
Many (most?) pilots consider themselves god's gift to women, but no one disappeared at that moment.
Something in the plane broke, and the initial response was severe enough to have knocked the pilot out.... my guess.
A right turn at Reno just doesn't happen.
.
Left elevator trim tab failed...

Someone who knows more about aviation than I do directed me to this page with an account of a near-accident in an air race with another P-51 in 1998:

http://www.warbird.com/voodoo.html

Button describes what happened to his airplane in Saturday's heat race. Apparently, the left elevator trim tab came off the airplane at speed, causing the bird to abruptly pitch up, subjecting driver Hannah to over 10 G's of deceleration forces, and causing him to lose conciousness! When he came to, the raceplane had climbed to over 9,000 feet of altitude. A shaken Hannah regained control and brought Voodoo in for a safe landing.

 

[I Ratant]

Mohave was as mentioned, "less restrictive"..
The course went over a -lot- of desert.
The plane that did crash there came down near California City.
The 1000 mile race at Browne Field had the front straight closer to the spectators than Reno.
The plane that crashed there was attempting to get back to the runway.. the main straight, when the flames got too intense and it went in.
.
Clay Lacey in the Snoopy DC-7 and Bob Love in a P-51 at the first 1000 mile race at Mohave... over the runway.. just a hop-skip & jump from the taxiway the spectators were on.
(The same scene today would be filled with abandoned jet airliners. )

 

[rwguinn]

Gee- an expert on everything physiological whom doesn't know that a=r*w²33 feet long, 37 foot wingspan, 11 feet high-on the original-the racers have their wings clipped, among other things.
and 400 mph is 586 feet/second, giving an energy level of about 5000*586² foot*lb

Posting lat at night--the 5000 is weight, which needs to be divided by 32.2 times 2, or 64.4. I knew that number was way too big...

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I just perused the news videos. There are a couple from within the debris field, one mostly audio and one where you could hear the woosh and clanging of the debris and see it flying all around. I would have taken the time to post links but I'm sure there will be better options later on YouTube without all the 30 sec commercial interruptions. And no doubt these videos will get a lot of airtime on the TV news anyway.

I take back my quibble with you rwguinn. I think the crash was into the first row of box seats and definitely the debris took out the row, but the impact center could be just in front of the seats. In other words, it depends on how wide you consider the impact area. Definitely the first row of chairs in the boxes are all knocked over and there are bloody people visible and on the ground in the videos. But the nose of the plane could have hit in front of and maybe not directly into the people.

It is very likely that the debris killed more than 2 people. That impact was at over 400 mph. I guess the press conference for today is still pending. It's been delayed.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

9 dead according to Reno PD.

 

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

Anyone heard any conspiracy theories regarding this yet? I find they seem to be inevitable.

 

[This is The End]

Left elevator trim tab failed...

Someone who knows more about aviation than I do directed me to this page with an account of a near-accident in an air race with another P-51 in 1998:

http://www.warbird.com/voodoo.html

Button describes what happened to his airplane in Saturday's heat race. Apparently, the left elevator trim tab came off the airplane at speed, causing the bird to abruptly pitch up, subjecting driver Hannah to over 10 G's of deceleration forces, and causing him to lose conciousness! When he came to, the raceplane had climbed to over 9,000 feet of altitude. A shaken Hannah regained control and brought Voodoo in for a safe landing.

Nice post. Looks and sounds like what has happened.

 

[Cainkane1]

80 years old and racing P-51s??


ETA: I think the 80-year-old claim is premature and may be incorrect. What's the source for it? ETA2: I did find several mentions that he was 80. Here's one: http://blogs.voanews.com/breaking-n...t-nevada-air-show-in-mass-casualty-situation/

While it's still up: https://www.facebook.com/JimmyLeeward. Very sad.

I read he was 74 and a very skilled pilot. Something went wrong with the plane and it wasn't the old guys fault.

 

[ConspiRaider]

Anyone heard any conspiracy theories regarding this yet? I find they seem to be inevitable.

My thoughts as well, Sir Robin, seems they'll be along. My guess? Dick Cheney in the Bunker with the Control Stick.

 

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

The "pilot" was an anthropomorphic dummy. The crash was to distract the public from the economy. Also, the Illuminati.

 

[Darth Rotor]

80 year old men should not be flying planes, much less a p-51 traveling at 400 mph in a tight circle. They wouldn't let a 80 yo man drive in a nascar race where no one in the crowd could even get hurt.

Jimmy Leeward "The Galloping Ghost"

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=712&pictureid=5015[/qimg]

Your age discrimination is noted.

 

[Furcifer]

Your age discrimination is noted.

Does discrimination only work one way? I'd have to say just about every 15 year old I've met has had better reflexes and eye sight than just about every 80 year old I've met. I have to agree with people who have observed that 74 or 80 is a little too old to be flying in air shows like this.

The guy died so there's an immediate response of "He's a hero, he did what he could and saved lives" but you really have to wonder if a younger pilot might have avoided the accident altogether. Experience counts for something, but as far as I know there's a mandatory retirement age even in the Air Force. I think experience only counts for so much if you just don't have the reflexes and mental acuity to operate a plane at 500 mph.

Topic for another thread perhaps.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Does discrimination only work one way? I'd have to say just about every 15 year old I've met has had better reflexes and eye sight than just about every 80 year old I've met. I have to agree with people who have observed that 74 or 80 is a little too old to be flying in air shows like this.

The guy died so there's an immediate response of "He's a hero, he did what he could and saved lives" but you really have to wonder if a younger pilot might have avoided the accident altogether. Experience counts for something, but as far as I know there's a mandatory retirement age even in the Air Force. I think experience only counts for so much if you just don't have the reflexes and mental acuity to operate a plane at 500 mph.

Topic for another thread perhaps.

Do you have evidence that better eyesight and reflexes outweigh extensive experience? Because I don't buy your underlying premise there.