The Oldest Religious Structures & Ancient Aliens?

[Pacal]

We continue to read nonsense written by Edge. He forgets such things as that many peoples DO NOT have flood myths. Also that the flood myths differ radically from people to people. Further the overwhelming majority of peoples do not put their flood myths back 13,000 years but date it "long ago" in mythic time. Further that the dates given by those people who date the flood have varied. To give two examples the Babylonian Flood myth has refferrred to in the Sumerian King List seems to date to c. 3800 B.C.E., whereas the biblical flood can be dated to c. 2450 B.C.E. if you youse the number of yeasrs given in the Bible. So there is no secure, whidespread dating of a flood c. 13,000 years ago in myth.

In an earlier posting Edge you mentioned that you knew all about the conventional explanations for Inca stone work. Well then please explain why you find their tested and demonstrated techniques to be unsatisfactory and requiring mysterious, advanced technology? Please explain why the Spanish didn't notice those stunningly advanced techniques when they they conquered Peru? The evidence is overwhelming that the Incas were still building monumental buildings and stonework when the Spanish came. They make and made the claims themselves. The Incas said they built the Temple of the Sun at Cuzco, that they built Machu Picchu and many many other impressive sites and monuments. Machu Picchu for example is a Palace complex built as a retreat for a Inca Emperor. Sacsayhuaman, the great fortress just outside of Cuzco was still being worked on when the Spanish came.

The Incas said they built these great monuments in the century before the Spanish came. Why do you doubt what the Incas claimed?

 

[Vortigern99]

First off, I have been shown that this is a world that is spiritual.

Let's allow for the sake of discussion that "this is a world that is spiritual" -- by which, I take it, you mean that invisible spirits inhabit the world and that human beings are endowed with souls. Let's allow for a moment that all of that is true and valid and correct.

In a word: So? How does that invalidate the findings of archeology or paleontology, or for that matter evolution (though that is not the subject of this thread)? Please be specific.

Now scientist[s] are also seeing this and being chastised for their wisdom[,] because what they see is that it [define "it": their wisdom? or science itself? you're having pronoun trouble here] doesn't answer the question of how life started[,] especially the question of where did the information come from to guide cells.

Lack of comprehensible sentence structure aside, what do you mean here? Please explain in more cogent language with better punctuation.

If you take it all the way down to the basics and from the beginning we are left with three choices, God, another planet, and the least likely slime.
Take your pick.
Without getting off topic too much we'll leave it there because there are many more reasons.

Where are you getting "slime" from in order to construct your false trichotomy? What scientific paper or article are you quoting, to construct your straw man about what you incorrectly imagine is the scientific position on abiogenesis? Because -- news flash! -- it doesn't involve "slime" at all.

 

[Dinwar]

Now scientist are also seeing this and being chastised for their wisdom because what they see is that it doesn't answer the question of how life started especially the question of where did the information come from to guide cells.

God of the Gaps--we don't know something so goddidit etdidit! Never mind the hoards of people working diligently on the problem right now, and the reams of papers published on the topic--we don't konw The One True Answer, therefore aliens.

If you take it all the way down to the basics and from the beginning we are left with three choices, God, another planet, and the least likely slime.
Take your pick.

Actually, those aren't the three choices. The idea I've always liked best is self-replicating molecules forming spontaniously, and being absorbed by bilipid bubbles. We know both of those can happen. They integrate some chemicals (sorted by inorganic minerals such as clays and quartz) and become true cells. This one is supported by evidence. Besides, two of your answers (from another planet and from slime) are identical--unless God made life, life started from slime SOMEWHERE.

 

[Elizabeth I]

You refuse to play by the rules of the game. Publish these "discoveries" in a peer-reviewed journal, then we'll talk. Learn the context of archeology/paleontology, then we'll talk. Until then, you're a crackpot who doesn't know enough to have an informed opinion here.

Or even an uninformed one.

 

[edge]

No surprise there, but I hardly think that Edge would own up to it though.

I was asking Filippo Lippi what particular claims Edge had made about dowsing abilities because Filippo Lippi's post (that I had quoted) made it sound like to me that Edge had made some claims to have some particular dowsing ability.

Was only asking so I could have some laughs at Edge's expense.

And I ask again, what was his claim about Dowsing? Is his attempt cataloged somewhere where I can see it?

I could use the laugh.

I might be submitting a whole new proposal involving a major network show, I am waiting to hear from them first then I will contact the JREF and other skeptical groups, for reasons of cross advertising for each other and the contest.

It will be a test in the field with two different dredge teams, one that dowses and one that doesn’t, to see what the numbers are in ten or twenty spots that are picked by each group and who gets more gold.
Both will be unfamiliar with the ground that they will mine on.
The winner of the show would be the group that gets the most gold.

 

[Mudcat]

edge discusses his claim in this long (39 page) thread. Knowing edge's posting style, I haven't even started to peruse the thread.

Took a look at it, he was dowsing for gold.

ETA: upon reading the thread, yes, that's edge's second application.

I'm not surprised he got turned down for his second try.

 

[edge]

Or even an uninformed one.

I have posted informed answers from many people.
Just because you don't see it, no harm.
My personal view of all this is very different and I tried to leave my personal opinion out of it.
I also know the accepted view on these places and structures, and yes obviously people worked at building these structures too.

The question is did they get help?
Or did they learn science differently or learn certain information that we haven’t yet?

For instance we are just learning things that they knew as they were coming out of the stone age but took us since thier time to re-learn.
How did the information get lost then has to be re-learned, what happened?

 

[edge]

Took a look at it, he was dowsing for gold.



I'm not surprised he got turned down for his second try.

I'm not surprised either.

 

[Mudcat]

The question is did they get help?
Or did they learn science differently or learn certain information that we haven’t yet?

No, they did not have any knowledge that we do not have today and it isn't that hard to figure out with a little imagination how they built these things.

I'm not surprised either.

I think the reason why I'm not surprised is completely different, Edge.

 

[Elizabeth I]

I have posted informed answers from many people.

No, you haven't. You have posted remarks from people who are either deluded or deluding other people.

 

[pakeha]

I might be submitting a whole new proposal involving a major network show, I am waiting to hear from them first then I will contact the JREF and other skeptical groups, for reasons of cross advertising for each other and the contest.

It will be a test in the field with two different dredge teams, one that dowses and one that doesn’t, to see what the numbers are in ten or twenty spots that are picked by each group and who gets more gold.
Both will be unfamiliar with the ground that they will mine on.
The winner of the show would be the group that gets the most gold.

The key word here is 'might', isn't it?

...I also know the accepted view on these places and structures, and yes obviously people worked at building these structures too.

The question is did they get help?
Or did they learn science differently or learn certain information that we haven’t yet?

For instance we are just learning things that they knew as they were coming out of the stone age but took us since thier time to re-learn.
How did the information get lost then has to be re-learned, what happened?

Could you give some examples of this?

For instance we are just learning things that they knew as they were coming out of the stone age but took us since thier time to re-learn

There has been so much material posted I'd like to be sure about what you're talking about here.

edited to add
I've read up on edge's dowsing claims and the failed JREF testing. I'd not read the related threads before and it was all most instructive, indeed.
As for Graham Hancock, it's this one, right?
http://www.badarchaeology.net/forgotten/civilisation.php

 

[edge]

No, they did not have any knowledge that we do not have today and it isn't that hard to figure out with a little imagination how they built these things.




I think the reason why I'm not surprised is completely different, Edge.

That's right in yellow.
I have worked as a loader with cranes and I seriously can't see them dragging these blocks through sand or even dirt with rollers, I am sure they did but when you get to blocks that are 40 to 400 hundred tons, well I got to wonder?
I am going to google to see what our best machines can lift.
Your second statement is true but from my perspective it's also true and predicted.

Here's what I found:
Manitowoc cranes are available from 50 tons to 2535 ton capacity.

But you have to remember that's a straight lift up, our cranes have a limit in booming out with those kinds of lifts without falling over, or how far out they can reach.
There's also a height limit, so when you do sky scrapers they also have to be lifted
It would be possible for us to build a pyramid like the ones in Egypt, but for Stone Age people it would have took all most a miracle or a hundred years or so.
Not only that but all the coordinates involved with the Earth and star movement and precession means even back then they knew the world was round not flat, so again why did they lose this information what caused that to happen?

They are the ones that make the claims that the gods came down to help?
They are the ones that claim they were taught by them about many things?

 

[edge]

No, you haven't. You have posted remarks from people who are either deluded or deluding other people.

That's your opinion well then OK.

 

[Akhenaten]

That's right in yellow.
I have worked as a loader with cranes and I seriously can't see them dragging these blocks through sand or even dirt with rollers, I am sure they did but when you get to blocks that are 40 to 400 hundred tons, well I got to wonder?
I am going to google to see what our best machines can lift.
Your second statement is true but from my perspective it's also true and predicted.

Here's what I found:
Manitowoc cranes are available from 50 tons to 2535 ton capacity.

But you have to remember that's a straight lift up, our cranes have a limit in booming out with those kinds of lifts without falling over, or how far out they can reach.
There's also a height limit, so when you do sky scrapers they also have to be lifted
It would be possible for us to build a pyramid like the ones in Egypt, but for Stone Age people it would have took all most a miracle or a hundred years or so.
Not only that but all the coordinates involved with the Earth and star movement and precession means even back then they knew the world was round not flat, so again why did they lose this information what caused that to happen?

They are the ones that make the claims that the gods came down to help?
They are the ones that claim they were taught by them about many things?

No.

 

[edge]

pakeha asks:

Could you give some examples of this?There has been so much material posted I'd like to be sure about what you're talking about here.

edited to add
I've read up on edge's dowsing claims and the failed JREF testing. I'd not read the related threads before and it was all most instructive, indeed.
As for Graham Hancock, it's this one, right?
http://www.badarchaeology.net/forgotten/civilisation.php

Hilited in yellow:
Up until the 14th century people thought the world was flat.

In bold:
There was so much for me to learn about the negative reasons on how to do a fair test that it was time consuming, I should have waited to apply.
It was near the time they rejected me for a new test that I finally figured it out.
The test I did with SezMe was where I finally had it down to a tee.
It was about measuring the effect with a target and with out a target that made it possible and I proved it in a test with him there in northern California I was able to get the correct numbers for a chance.
Up until then I tried many different tests, I tried there since it was there in the field that it worked so well. I tried many ways and I failed to get in a controlled test even close to what it would take.
One negative flaw that the most brilliant of physicists stated was that the force was impossible to measure that stuck in my mind, was it that they over thought it?
I found out that they did.

Here’s a link that will show you what we did.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85571

Plus is dowsing relevant to this discussion?
I can tie it with what Zecharia Sitchin and Erich von Däniken have written about, so yes, but it will be a long read.

 

[Ladewig]

No surprise there, but I hardly think that Edge would own up to it though.

I was asking Filippo Lippi what particular claims Edge had made about dowsing abilities because Filippo Lippi's post (that I had quoted) made it sound like to me that Edge had made some claims to have some particular dowsing ability.

Was only asking so I could have some laughs at Edge's expense.

And I ask again, what was his claim about Dowsing? Is his attempt cataloged somewhere where I can see it?

I could use the laugh.

My favorite claim from the dowsing episode arose when Edge did not pass the test and tried to explain why. Apparently when he is in the field, his dowsing powers are strong enough to find tiny gold nuggets smaller than one-eighth ounce. But in a controlled setting, his dowsing stick needs a target no smaller than five pounds of pure gold. Yep, all JREF has to do is line up ten cardboard shoe boxes and place $100,000+ worth of gold under one of them and Edge could then demonstrate his dowsing powers. It really is that simple.

 

[Ladewig]

pakeha asks:

Hilited in yellow:
Up until the 14th century people thought the world was flat.

No. No educated person believed that. The ancient Greeks looked a the Earth's shadow on the moon and concluded that the Earth was spherical. Sailors looked at how ships disappear over the horizon and concluded the same thing. In fact Eratosthenes even measured the circumference of the Earth before Jesus was born.

 

[edge]

My favorite claim from the dowsing episode arose when Edge did not pass the test and tried to explain why. Apparently when he is in the field, his dowsing powers are strong enough to find tiny gold nuggets smaller than one-eighth ounce. But in a controlled setting, his dowsing stick needs a target no smaller than five pounds of pure gold. Yep, all JREF has to do is line up ten cardboard shoe boxes and place $100,000+ worth of gold under one of them and Edge could then demonstrate his dowsing powers. It really is that simple.

I still have the tray so it is not nessesary, I'll stick with that.
Just the way we did it on Coffee Creek.
That was then this is now.
This is all that's nessesary, but I am working on a better test as stated above, if accepted.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85571

I might be submitting a whole new proposal involving a major network show, I am waiting to hear from them first then I will contact the JREF and other skeptical groups, for reasons of cross advertising for each other and the contest.

It will be a test in the field with two different dredge teams, one that dowses and one that doesn’t, to see what the numbers are in ten or twenty spots that are picked by each group and who gets more gold.
Both will be unfamiliar with the ground that they will mine on.
The winner of the show would be the group that gets the most gold.

Correction in yellow, (I have submitted).

 

[Akhenaten]

Hilited in yellow:
Up until the 14th century people thought the world was flat.

Which people?

 

[edge]

Flying the Saqqara Bird

Located roughly 20 miles south of Cairo, it is home to the world-famous step pyramid of King Djoser. Dating back more than 4,000 years, it is the oldest of Egypt’s 97 pyramids. Saqqara is also famous for being one of Egypt’s oldest burial grounds, earning it the nickname “City of the Dead.”
It was here, in 1891, that French archeologists unearthed an ancient tomb containing the burial remains of Pa-di-Imen, an official from the third century BC. Among the various items discovered was a small wooden model of what appeared to be a bird, lying beside a papyrus bearing the inscription: “I want to fly.”


from here:
http://www.ancientaliensblog.com/20-saqqara-bird-or-a-ancient-plane.html

And the con to that here:by Martin Gregorie


http://www.catchpenny.org/birdtest.html