Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[brazenlilraisin]

There were veins of coal beneath the WTC buildings?

Did all the combustible material in the towers that came down in the collapse suddenly cease to be combustible?

 

[Justin39640]

Yeah, I just found that...but if you'll notice the building is 'unharmed' at the edges...even if the wings were made of aluminum foil and wood, hitting a building at several hundred miles as hour is going to inflict SOME damage...

The Pentagon is a unique structure in that it was designed to take on a full frontal attack. Its outer walls are reinforced and all the windows facing out are bomb proof.

 

[triforcharity]

I answered that. FDs answer top down.

Yes, from the comissioners down. However, a fire comissioner really has no operational command. The Chief at the scene would have operational command, no matter who showed up.

If a FEMA honcho told the mayor

FEMA would really have no authority over the mayor.

and the mayor told Daniel Nigro that's how the chain of command goes.

No, it does not. The Mayor really has no operational command at all.

It would have been perceived that FEMA had the authority of the POTUS.

What does FEMA have to do with the FDNY?

 

[triforcharity]

Fire! Fire! Call the carpenters,quickly!

Hilarious!! And the fact that he thinks this MIGHT actually be true is even funnier.

 

[triforcharity]

99 days? What kind of fire can't be put out for 99 days?

Friction from the collapse?

A really big one burning in inaccessable areas, buried by millions of pounds of rubble.

And no. That's just plain stupid.

 

[King of the Americas]

"He" being Larry Silverstein. This does not explain why he insured for such a small amount, and had to be forced to add more. Heard from who? The gov't? Did they tell him, and hope he wouldn't tell anyone, or was their operational control shoddy enough for a leak so shortly before the 9/11, but not after it became the single most documented, most studied, and most examined terrorist attack in history?

A 'guy'? You spoke to a 'guy'? So you haven't done any searching yourself?

I'm just going to assume you're being unintentionally naive, and not "JAQing off". Educate thyself.

http://www.911myths.com/html/windfall.html

Basically, Larry is legally compelled to rebuild, which will put him in the red to the tune of billions.

First, this "isn't my bag". I saw the second plane hit the second tower, and I wrote an essay, as to why I thought the event happened. My essay spoke about a flawed foreign policy, and these attacks being a result of our support for monarchs and dictators. Most found my suggestion outrightly distasteful and un-American.

I'd say I grazed the top of the whole 9/11 investigation, and I really don't care to dig into it. I spent about a half an hour playing halo 3 with this guy from new york who was only too willing to talk about what HE thought about it. He said things I wanted to check, so I came here...THE place to find the answer to anything to be skeptical about.

 

[000063]

First, this "isn't my bag". I saw the second plane hit the second tower, and I wrote an essay, as to why I thought the event happened. My essay spoke about a flawed foreign policy, and these attacks being a result of our support for monarchs and dictators. Most found my suggestion outrightly distasteful and un-American.

I'd say I grazed the top of the whole 9/11 investigation, and I really don't care to dig into it. I spent about a half an hour playing halo 3 with this guy from new york who was only too willing to talk about what HE thought about it. He said things I wanted to check, so I came here...THE place to find the answer to anything to be skeptical about.

Basically, there are to many questions in any conspiracy theory for it to be credible. The hypothetical operation requires perfect security. Not exaggerating; even one person who can so much as point the papers in the right direction would blow the case wide open. There is no possible plan that is workable with less than a hundred or so people. Some plans require thousands or more to be in on it. There is basically no way to have perfect operational security, and to maintain it for ten years, though an administration change.

There are other points, but that's the strongest.

 

[King of the Americas]

The Pentagon is a unique structure in that it was designed to take on a full frontal attack. Its outer walls are reinforced and all the windows facing out are bomb proof.

So, the plane should have ended up where, and in what condition?

What caused the hole, I linked a page ago?

Interesting about the building's reinforcement...I'd expect as much. The Pentagon SHOULD be a hard target, that could take a few direct hits, and maintain operational status.

Was it, by the way?

How was its operational status affected?

 

[triforcharity]

That is a non answer. The question was if 38 million gallons was sufficient for the first 3 days.

I did the math using the numbers YOU provided, and it is absolutely plausable that 38 million gallons of water could be pumped through the Harvey.

Obviously 38 million gallons was NOT sufficient. Not that it matters, because 28 million gallons is incorrect. Even 3 million wasn't sufficient, as the fires CONTINUED to burn, even after GZ got the amount of rain you calculated.

You are wrong about it being 38 million gallons in the first 3 days and you are wrong about it being insufficient to reach the 12th floor.

Ok, so the guys with FDNY are incompetent? Yeah, like I said before. When I want to frame a window, I will be sure to drop you a line. When I want to fight a fire, I am not going to be consulting an uneducated nobody, I will be contacting experts, such as myself and the FDNY.

You are NOT an expert on this subject.

My advanced degree and my 16+ years of professional firefighting experience tells me otherswise.

"After the WTC buildings collapsed, fire fighting and rescue operations continued. The fires at ground zero were smoldering for months after the attack (41). It was determined that 3 million gallons of water were hosed on site in the fire-fighting efforts between 9/11 and 9/21

Wonderful. Still wasn't enough, as the fires continued to burn.

In addition, there were two episodes of rain during the same 10-day period: on 9/14 and 9/20,21 (18), totaling 0.9 million gallons of water in the Bathtub area. Considering the neighboring areas, we take 1 million gallons from the rain. Therefore, a total of 4 million gallons of water percolated through the debris in the first 10 days and collected at the bottom of the Bathtub."
https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/241096.pdf

Wonderful. Still wasn't enough, as the fires continued to burn.

That is another non answer. How did they get millions of gallons to the sight if the water just trickled out of the supply line as you said it would do?

If you tried to push 8000 gpm through even a 100 ft. length of hose, you're going to burn your pump as the backpressure would cause it to fail. Catastrophically.

Now, if you really want to know how it's done, I can explain it to you. I can even draw you some pictures. But, it will have to wait untill tomorrow sometime.

I did some research and I now know the answer but you still don't.

No, I do know the answer. (Please feel free to post yours. Don't forget to show your math.

The way they managed to get millions of gallons of water to the sight from the Harvey would necessarily deliver it at a pressure sufficient to reach the 12th floor and above as in this video of water being applied to the roof of 90 West St. from the building next door demonstrates.
at 3:37
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ufz71bjwqvY

Do you know what 90 W. St. had to their advantage?

No big fires burning and causing the structure to be unsafe. Not to mention the whole standpipe issue that hasn't even been touched on yet.

Now, run along and go put up some trim or something.

 

[King of the Americas]

Basically, there are to many questions in any conspiracy theory for it to be credible. The hypothetical operation requires perfect security. Not exaggerating; even one person who can so much as point the papers in the right direction would blow the case wide open. There is no possible plan that is workable with less than a hundred or so people. Some plans require thousands or more to be in on it. There is basically no way to have perfect operational security, and to maintain it for ten years, though an administration change.

There are other points, but that's the strongest.

I think requiring "perfect operational security" is a strawman argument.

People talk, but without evidence, it's just hearsay.

After the smoke cleared, and Politically Incorrect was taken off the air, I decided that the only conclusion I needed to draw about the event, is that our Commander In Chief WASN'T, and that the event would be used by this President to go to war...

...and that we'd likely never know everything about how these events unfolded, and who knew what when.

 

[triforcharity]

You need to understand COC. If FEMA, under the authority of the federal government, tells you to you to jump or stand down you jump or stand down. It's as simple as that.

No, it DOESNT work like that. The ONLY person who could have ordered me NOT to go into the pile after 9/11, is either a LAW ENFORCEMENT agency (FBI, ATF, etc) or my commanding officers. NOBODY else has the jourisdiction.

If there had been people trapped in 7WTC, and someone from FEMA told me not to go it, I would have looked them in the eye, told them where to go and where to stick it, and turned around and walked right the **** into 7WTC's lobby. Nothing short of someone physically restraining me would have stopped me. And that would have taken a pretty big guy, or a guy with a gun. I carry an axe and know how to use it.

 

[Oz1976]

You need to understand COC. If FEMA, under the authority of the federal government, tells you to you to jump or stand down you jump or stand down. It's as simple as that.

No it isn't. You need to stop listening to Alex Jones.

 

[Oz1976]

I think requiring "perfect operational security" is a strawman argument.

People talk, but without evidence, it's just hearsay.

After the smoke cleared, and Politically Incorrect was taken off the air, I decided that the only conclusion I needed to draw about the event, is that our Commander In Chief WASN'T, and that the event would be used by this President to go to war...

...and that we'd likely never know everything about how these events unfolded, and who knew what when.

So wait...you honestly never paid attention to anything other than "we'd be going to war" with regards to 9/11...as an American? Really? I know in this day and age, it's time consuming to research, so a few things you could watch...

"On Native Soil" - Documentary about the fight for, the forming, and conclusions of the 9/11 Commission.
"9/11" - Naudet Documentary about what the Firefighters of Ladder 1 went through that day.
"Inside the Twin Towers" - Discovery Channel Documentary
"The 9/11 Conspiracies: Fact or Fiction" - documentary
Screw Loose Change - rebuttal to loose change
Screw 9/11 Mysteries - rebuttal to 9/11 mysteries

If you have time to read:
debunking911.com
911myths.com
sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies
911reality.com
ae911truth.info
(these sites are all listed above in the debunking links)

 

[sylvan8798]

First, this "isn't my bag". I saw the second plane hit the second tower, and I wrote an essay, as to why I thought the event happened. My essay spoke about a flawed foreign policy, and these attacks being a result of our support for monarchs and dictators. Most found my suggestion outrightly distasteful and un-American.

I'd say I grazed the top of the whole 9/11 investigation, and I really don't care to dig into it. I spent about a half an hour playing halo 3 with this guy from new york who was only too willing to talk about what HE thought about it. He said things I wanted to check, so I came here...THE place to find the answer to anything to be skeptical about.

Well, at least you're not a no-planer. If you are indeed new to the 9/11 Truther "bag", then allow us to introduce you to some of the people you are climbing into bed with:

Here's a guy who claims no one actually died in the attacks, since everyone was a computer simulation. He and his pals like to make fun of the dead and their families and friends on their forum:

http://www.youtube.com/user/simonshack

http://cluesforum.info/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=971

This woman was in a coma and afterwards kind of lost her marbles. She claims the towers were destroyed by mysterious Directed Energy Weapons from space, which also had something to do with a hurricane. Oh, and she's a no planer, so she would happily explain to your face how that wasn't a plane that you think you saw:

http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/why/whypics/66_Roadrunner.jpg

 

[Clayton Moore]

No, it DOESNT work like that. The ONLY person who could have ordered me NOT to go into the pile after 9/11, is either a LAW ENFORCEMENT agency (FBI, ATF, etc) or my commanding officers. NOBODY else has the jourisdiction.

If there had been people trapped in 7WTC, and someone from FEMA told me not to go it, I would have looked them in the eye, told them where to go and where to stick it, and turned around and walked right the **** into 7WTC's lobby. Nothing short of someone physically restraining me would have stopped me. And that would have taken a pretty big guy, or a guy with a gun. I carry an axe and know how to use it.

Wow. Did you make that up all by your lonesome? Why would FEMA talk to you?

 

[Clayton Moore]

So wait...you honestly never paid attention to anything other than "we'd be going to war" with regards to 9/11...as an American? Really? I know in this day and age, it's time consuming to research, so a few things you could watch...

"On Native Soil" - Documentary about the fight for, the forming, and conclusions of the 9/11 Commission.
"9/11" - Naudet Documentary about what the Firefighters of Ladder 1 went through that day.
"Inside the Twin Towers" - Discovery Channel Documentary
"The 9/11 Conspiracies: Fact or Fiction" - documentary
Screw Loose Change - rebuttal to loose change
Screw 9/11 Mysteries - rebuttal to 9/11 mysteries

If you have time to read:
debunking911.com
911myths.com
sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies
911reality.com
ae911truth.info
(these sites are all listed above in the debunking links)

Those debunking sites protect neocon liars.

 

[Oz1976]

Those debunking sites protect neocon liars.

Only in your mythical fantasy land of the evil jews coming to get you.

 

[Christopher7]

Obviously 38 million gallons was NOT sufficient.

Now you are playing with semantics. The point is - they had sufficient water and pressure to get to the 12th floor, not sufficient water to put out all the fires, but you know that.

If you tried to push 8000 gpm through even a 100 ft. length of hose, you're going to burn your pump as the backpressure would cause it to fail. Catastrophically.

You keep talking about what cannot be done. That's a pointless waste of time and column space.

I did some research and I now know the answer but you still don't.

No, I do know the answer. (Please feel free to post yours. Don't forget to show your math.

No need for either of us non firefighters to do the math. The real firefighters did the math and found the solution. Your whole "show me your math" clearly demonstrates that you don't know how they got the water from the Harvey to the site at high pressure. You didn't consider using pump trucks in relay.

(emphasis mine)
Over the course of the next 3-days, three large fireboats would pump for twenty four hours a day to supply almost 60,000 gallons of water per minute. (See photo on left of the Fireboat Firefighter supplying numerous large diameter supply lines. Photo by Huntley Gill) Their water supplied pumpers in relay, manifolds, and building standpipes. Without the pumping capabilities of these old boats the fires in the surrounding hi-rise building as well as the dozens of cars and emergency vehicles which were burning could not have been attacked.
[FONT=&quot]http://www.marinefirefighting.com/Pages/Newsletters/Newsletter9.htm[/FONT]

A "professional firefighter who was there" would have known that they used pump trucks along the way and would never have argued about friction losses.

 

[Travis]

I'm not sure what this deal is with FEMA bossing around the FDNY.

I suggest a read of the book Firefight about what the firefighters at the Pentagon did on that day. They made a lot of decisions without going through the command authority of the DOD despite the fact that the building they were saving was their headquarters.

 

[Christopher7]

I'm not sure what this deal is with FEMA bossing around the FDNY.

I suggest a read of the book Firefight about what the firefighters at the Pentagon did on that day. They made a lot of decisions without going through the command authority of the DOD despite the fact that the building they were saving was their headquarters.

FEMA doesn't necessarily have any say but the mayor and the political machine do. If you want to know how things work in New York City, Google: Serpico