are communists necessarily anti-semitic?

no...we hate the abuses of the palestinian people by the government of israel.

Yet there is never a left-wing protest against the fascists in Syria or Iran, or the refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan that are worse than the worst slum in Gaza.
 
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Yet there is never a left-wing protest against the fascists in Syria or Iran, or the refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan that are worse than the worst slum in Gaza.

There are at least monthly protests against the government of Iran here, all of which are organised by leftist organisations. Sometimes, when something more atrocious than usual is happening there, there are more frequent protests. On First of May, a large percentage of the protesters here are explicitly protesting against the government of Iran and other Middle-east dictatorships (though Iran predominates, as there are a lot of exiled Iranians in my city). Certainly most of the book stalls on First of May sell only books in Arabic, and explicitly target Arabic dictatorships. Similarly, the three leftist weekly newspapers I read lash out against Iran and other Muslim dictatorships at least as often as they lash out against other countries they oppose.

From my experience from the city I live in alone -- a city which is by no means very radical -- I feel confident to say that you have no idea what you are talking about.

The question then becomes, again, to what extent do liberals, conservatives, and other right-wingers protest against these, and other, injustices? Limiting myself to the same sample area as above, I would say that it never happens. Even expanding this to a national level, I would say that this never happens.
 
no...we hate the abuses of the palestinian people by the government of israel.
Ah, the lip-service. Communists caring for the supposed oppression of minorities. Classic.

It was Soviet Russia post-'67 that started to make the correlation between Israel/Zionist movement to that of apartheid SA in an attempt to de-legitimize it. Its carried on since by all sorts of useful idiots, from Communists to radical Islamists.

As for the OP, doesn't the general positions of Communist leaders and its body throughout history support the question of this op in the affirmative?
 
As for the OP, doesn't the general positions of Communist leaders and its body throughout history support the question of this op in the affirmative?

Where does this put the conservatives, who supported Franco, Hitler, Mussolini, Pinochet, Saddam, Ghaddafi, the Apartheid regime in South Africa, and so on? Can we infer, in a similar manner, that core tenets of conservatism include falangism, nazism, fascism, and racism? Certainly the "general positions" of Conservative leaders throughout history would seem to support such a conclusion.
 
It seems to me that you have mistakenly made a reversal of terms. While the Soviet Union purportedly followed the principles of communism, communism as such does not necessarily follow the principles of the Soviet Union.
And yet, every single time communism has been tried it closely resembles the Soviet version. Because communism quite naturally leads to totalitarianism as it is impossible to implement otherwise. At least among human beings. Bear in mind bikerdruid thinks Castro's Cuba is a communist success story!
 
Russian culture however has been deeply antisemitic for centuries, and 20-25 years of contrary government policy could hardly eradicate it.
The same holds true in most of Europe, does it not? And this is why I feel that much of the anti-Israel sentiments are really just anti-semitism finding a legal/socially acceptable outlet. Anti-semitism didn't disappear from Europe after WWII. In fact, much of Europe still feels the need to suppress anti-semitism via laws, such as the laws against Holocaust denial. You don't outlaw speech if you don't have good reason to feel threatened by it.
 
no...we hate the abuses of the palestinian people by the government of israel.
You blow Israel's "abuses" all out of proportion while completely ignoring the abuses of Palestinians by the governments of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. You know, the very countries that created the Palestinian problem in the first place and continue abusing them to this very day.

Did you know Palestinians who have lived in Lebanon for over 3 generations now are denied the right to *work, to vote, to travel, to buy property? Yet all we hear from you is Israel, Israel, Israel.

*last year Lebanon passed a law allowing Palestinians to work in some non-public sector jobs.
 
And yet, every single time communism has been tried it closely resembles the Soviet version.

Only every time it has been tried on a super-community level, which, it could be argued, is not necessarily the level on which the societal change to a communistic world should occur. There are many communistic organisations that do not, or at least have not, become authoritarian, as well as many which were and are critical of the Soviet Union, but who still self-identify as communistic.

The same holds true in most of Europe, does it not? And this is why I feel that much of the anti-Israel sentiments are really just anti-semitism finding a legal/socially acceptable outlet. Anti-semitism didn't disappear from Europe after WWII.

I agree, but hold that we find this anti-semitism masquerading as anti-Israelism within the racist, neo-nazi, nationalist, and conservative groups, who continue their tradition of mistrust and outright hatred of perceived threats to society: Jews, Romani, foreigners, and so on. This is quite obvious when you look at these groups, and borders on the indisputable.

I do not agree, however, that all anti-Israel sentiments are the result of anti-semitism, whether open or latent, as I have argued above. To me, the anti-Israel sentiments expressed by a large part of the left fits better into the pattern I described in a previous post, that is, as one part of a movement against perceived oppression in general, whether the perceived oppressor is Jewish or not. This, to me, implies that the religion, ethnicity or nationality of the target for the protests is irrelevant compared to the targets actual or perceived actions. As evidence for this, I will reiterate my points above:
- Leftists (1) do not, in my experience, treat Jewish people any different from other people in contexts where Israel is not important. They do not discriminate or incite against them, attack them, slander them, and so on in general;
- Leftists do protest against what they perceive as oppression similar to how they see the Israel-Palestine conflict in other contexts, where Jewish people are only marginally involved, if at all;
- Leftists are generally "pro-Palestine" rather than "anti-Israel". However, this should be taken as a statement that they are generally for a solution where both people can co-exist peacefully, rather than, for instance, a simple reversal of status;
- Leftists are unique in the political spectrum in that they arrange anti-nazi rallies, protests and meetings, arrange counter-protests whenever genuine anti-semites march or meet, and so on. They are also very active in the part of the publishing industry that works against genuine neo-nazis, racists, nationalists, and other conservatives.

Of course you could find genuine left-wing anti-semites if you looked, but I hold that if they exist, they are certainly in the (vast) minority. Otherwise, I cannot get the pieces to fit together with my experience with the left. Why, if they are anti-semites, do they not treat Jews any different from other people in non-Israel contexts? Why are they actively marching against genuine anti-semites, like the neo-nazis instead of joining up with them? Why are people on the left being murdered and beaten up by genuine anti-semites for publishing anti-nazi books, magazines, and journals, or for being active in anti-nazi protests, marches and debates? Why would the left risk their lives protesting against the genuine anti-semites if they secretly agree with the anti-semites' core ideology?

---
(1) I will use this term instead of the incommodious "people who self-identify as communists", but do not mean to shift the meaning of the phrase, so feel free to exchange one for the other.
 
Originally Posted by Virus
Yet there is never a left-wing protest against the fascists in Syria or Iran, or the refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan that are worse than the worst slum in Gaza.

the Palestinian refugee camps in Jordan are worse than the worst slums in Gaza?

prove it.
 
I do not agree, however, that all anti-Israel sentiments are the result of anti-semitism, whether open or latent, as I have argued above.
I'm not arguing that all anti-Israel sentiment is the result of anti-semitism, but I am arguing that it is anti-semites who push anti-Israel sentiment to the point it is. For example, can anyone argue against the point that real, genuine anti-semitism abounds in the Muslim world, and it is these countries that have kept the Israel issue at the forefront in the UN?

The Israel/Palestine issue gets far, far more attention than the actual facts merit, and this is due to militant anti-semites keeping it on the boilerplate. There are other disputed lands, other stateless peoples, and far more egregious human rights issues today that don't receive 1% of the attention the Israel/Palestinian issue gets. Turkey and Iran suppress the Kurds, nobody cares. India and Pakistan at the brink of nuclear war over Kashmir? Boooooooring! Russian actions in Chechnya? Meh. A shortage of cheese doodles in Gaza? OMFG, human rights abuse! War crime! UN condemnation!

To me, the anti-Israel sentiments expressed by a large part of the left fits better into the pattern I described in a previous post, that is, as one part of a movement against perceived oppression in general, whether the perceived oppressor is Jewish or not. This, to me, implies that the religion, ethnicity or nationality of the target for the protests is irrelevant compared to the targets actual or perceived actions. As evidence for this, I will reiterate my points above:
- Leftists (1) do not, in my experience, treat Jewish people any different from other people in contexts where Israel is not important. They do not discriminate or incite against them, attack them, slander them, and so on in general;
- Leftists do protest against what they perceive as oppression similar to how they see the Israel-Palestine conflict in other contexts, where Jewish people are only marginally involved, if at all;
- Leftists are generally "pro-Palestine" rather than "anti-Israel". However, this should be taken as a statement that they are generally for a solution where both people can co-exist peacefully, rather than, for instance, a simple reversal of status;
- Leftists are unique in the political spectrum in that they arrange anti-nazi rallies, protests and meetings, arrange counter-protests whenever genuine anti-semites march or meet, and so on. They are also very active in the part of the publishing industry that works against genuine neo-nazis, racists, nationalists, and other conservatives.
Then why is Israel singled out tme and time again? Why does it get more press (and threads on internet forums) than all those other issues combined?

Of course you could find genuine left-wing anti-semites if you looked, but I hold that if they exist, they are certainly in the (vast) minority. Otherwise, I cannot get the pieces to fit together with my experience with the left. Why, if they are anti-semites, do they not treat Jews any different from other people in non-Israel contexts?
Because those Jews are in their place, not like the uppity ones demanding their own state to insulate themselves from all the "love" they received everywhere else they have lived.

Why are they actively marching against genuine anti-semites, like the neo-nazis instead of joining up with them?
I really doubt they would, if anti-semitism was the only thing nazis are about. The one thing Stalin and Hitler agreed with was that the Jews had to be dealt with. In fact, he even purged his ministries of Jews to assure the Germans that they hated the Jews too, despite Nazi beliefs that communism was a Jewish system.

Why are people on the left being murdered and beaten up by genuine anti-semites for publishing anti-nazi books, magazines, and journals, or for being active in anti-nazi protests, marches and debates? Why would the left risk their lives protesting against the genuine anti-semites if they secretly agree with the anti-semites' core ideology?
As I said before, if the only Nazi belief was anti-semitism I really don't think leftists would much care about them.

And this guy in the Mao cap doesn't look right-wing to me, despite hisblatantly anti-semitic signs he is carrying: http://www.zombietime.com/bus_19_berkeley/part_2/151-5147_IMG.JPG

He was protesting the display of a bus bombed by Palestinian terrorists.
 
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Originally Posted by Virus [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif[/qimg]
Yet there is never a left-wing protest against the fascists in Syria or Iran, or the refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan that are worse than the worst slum in Gaza.

the Palestinian refugee camps in Jordan are worse than the worst slums in Gaza?

prove it.

Michael Totten, in an interview with some weird Palestinian Marxist:

But I was still startled by what Ramallah actually looked like. I expected to see, and to write about, squalid living conditions. I had already seen the Sabra and Shatila Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon, and the “Do you feel the Arab countries have betrayed the Palestinians?” I said. “They are treated like animals in Lebanon, Egypt, and Syria.”

“Yes, I know,” he said. “I wouldn’t say Arab governments are innocent. They are not doing what they should do. It is below the capacities that they have. Still, Israelis are the main enemy and the main source of suffering.”

“But Palestinians are treated worse by Lebanese than they are by Israelis,” I said. “Do you know about the conditions in refugee camps like Ein El Helwe?”

“They are not treated worse in Lebanon,” he said. “That is not possible.”

I blinked at him.

“I have seen these places myself,” I said. “The conditions there are vastly worse than they are here in Ramallah. It’s impossible to even compare them.”

“Here a pregnant woman cannot get to a hospital because of the checkpoints,” he said.

It’s possible the Palestinians in the West Bank have no idea how bad the refugee camps in other countries really are. Or they are so consumed with their own problems that they just don’t care. I do not know.

I’ll say this, though: Those refugee camps in Lebanon have been there for more than 50 years. The hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in Lebanon are not allowed to live anywhere else unless they are Christian. (They aren’t really “camps,” by the way. They are urban, and they are sub-Dickensian slums.) And until last year, vehicles entering the camps were searched by the Lebanese army. Building materials were confiscated. The Lebanese didn’t want the Palestinians to get, you know, the wrong idea. If you want to know what those places are like, just imagine the worst slums you’ve ever seen. Then subtract all the modern building materials. Unspeakable doesn’t even begin to describe them.

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001140.html
 
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Because those Jews are in their place, not like the uppity ones demanding their own state to insulate themselves from all the "love" they received everywhere else they have lived.

strawman

The one thing Stalin and Hitler agreed with was that the Jews had to be dealt with.

what a remarkably ignorant & stupid thing to say. do you believe its ok to reinvent and revise history, as long as it helps your short term goals? sure looks that way.
 
I'm not arguing that all anti-Israel sentiment is the result of anti-semitism, but I am arguing that it is anti-semites who push anti-Israel sentiment to the point it is.
Oddly, some "pro-Israeli" support in the US is rooted in anti-Semitism.:boggled:
 
Evidence is in the article;

So I sat down with Qays Abdul Karim Abu Laila of the Marxist-Leninist Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine. The DFLPers have a crackpot ideology, but to their credit they insist Palestinians should only fight Israeli soldiers, and that Palestinians should only fight Israeli soldiers in Palestine. Israeli civilians are to be left alone. The DFLP won a whopping 3 percent of the vote.
 
While communism has historically been anti-semitic in its application, there is little apparent need for communist governments to be actively anti-semitic.

But communism must by necessity be anti-freedom. Modern definitions of human rights and freedoms can't exist in a communist system. Communist states being police states by their very nature, the effect of any prejudices held by their enforcers will be multiplied dramatically.
 
The Polish Communists would break out the antisemitism whenever they found it useful as a scapegoat.
 
But I thought communism was supposed to be an insidious political disease created by Jews to secretly rule the world?
Man this stuff is tricky. I'm starting to think that silly assertions from strangers over the internet with political axes to grind aren't worth anything at all...

Bingo!
 

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