are communists necessarily anti-semitic?

Wait, so a Communist is not a true Communist, if they don't 100% follow the ideas of the Soviet Union? huh.

I guess this means the North Koreans ain't true Commies. Neither are the Cubans, or were the East Germans.
 
Kotatsu said:
It seems to me that you have mistakenly made a reversal of terms. While the Soviet Union purportedly followed the principles of communism, communism as such does not necessarily follow the principles of the Soviet Union.

Compare:

One of the principles of veganism is that you should not eat meat.
I am a vegan, and claim to follow the principles of veganism.
Therefore, I don't eat meat.
Another of my principles is that whenever a car is parked on the bike path or pavement, I go the rest of the way wherever I am going on the car road.
This does not imply that all people who claim to be vegans take the road when the bike path is blocked, nor does it imply that this is a principle of veganism.
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I don't think anyone is stating that anti-Semitism is a stated core principle of communism, but it might be true that there is a strong positive correlation between people who are communist and people who are anti-Semitic. There is certainly a strong positive correlation between people who self-describe as communist and people who are anti-Israel.

To use your analogy, there is nothing in veganism that has anything to do with your choice of route when you use your bicycle, but there might be a strong positive correlation between people who are vegans and people who choose a bicycle as a primary mode of transportation. Even though bike riding has nothing to do with veganism, it's entirely possible that a common group of values makes it so people who choose one are more likely to also choose the other.
 
I don't think anyone is stating that anti-Semitism is a stated core principle of communism..


well, that means you didn't read the OP. this is indeed Skeptic's assertion.
 
But I thought communism was supposed to be an insidious political disease created by Jews to secretly rule the world?
Man this stuff is tricky. I'm starting to think that silly assertions from strangers over the internet with political axes to grind aren't worth anything at all...
 
Mycroft said:
Please clarify. Is the "extraneous tacked entity" the USSR? Or is that something else?
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The standard No True Scotsman example is, basically:

"No true scotsman eats his porridge with sugar."
"Well, my friend Angus McTavish is born and raised in Glasgow and he eats his porridge with sugar."
"Then he's not a True Scotsman."

To be a No True Scotsman, it must:

A) be a form of circular reasoning, more specifically the begging the question kind. Angus McTavish is ruled as a no true scotsman for being an exception to the stated rule, thus supporting the rule. The supposed rule is supported by assuming it to be true in dismissing the exception, making the reasoning go in a full circle.

B) try to tack a characteristic upon a group that is not a part of what defines that group.

E.g., if I said that "no true submarine would be by design unable to submerge", that's not a No True Scotsman. Being submersible is part of the definition of a submarine, so, yes, if it wasn't designed to do that, it's not a submarine.

Whereas if I said "no true submarine would be unable to shoot torpedoes", that might have a chance of fulfilling criterion B. It's trying to tack an extra characteristic upon submarines (shooting torpedoes) that is actually not a real part of the definition of a submarine. There are plenty of submarines that aren't military and don't have any weaponry at all.

BUT, conversely, if I said "shooting torpedoes isn't part of what defines a submarine", that's not a No True Scotsman. It's not satisfying condition B because it's not trying to extend the definition of a submarine with any new entities. In fact it denies an extra entity's supposed status as necessary for a submarine.

Well, the same applies here. Saying that anti-semitism isn't a part of what defines communism has nothing to do with the No True Scotsman. It's not trying to enlarge the definition of communism with any new entities. In fact it denies such a spurious entity as necessary: that anti-semitism.

Mycroft said:
He seemed to be saying that Soviet communism isn't true communism. If he meant to say something else and I misunderstood, that's one thing, but in that context I fail to see how that fallacy doesn't apply. Feel free to share your own opinion if you disagree.
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First of all, even if they did, they'd be right. Even the Soviets actually called their system "socialism", and it was supposed to be a temporary step to prepare for the true communism. Lenin on one occasion even called the system "state capitalism".

So, yeah, even then it wouldn't be a No True Scotsman. It's not a No True Scotsman to point out that an electric eel isn't a true eel, because objectively it ain't: it's actually a species of knifefish.

But that's irrelevant because that's not what was said. All that was said is that the extra attribute "anti-semitism" is not a part of what defines communism. Not even of the Soviet kind.
 
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LukeB said:
But I thought communism was supposed to be an insidious political disease created by Jews to secretly rule the world?
Man this stuff is tricky. I'm starting to think that silly assertions from strangers over the internet with political axes to grind aren't worth anything at all...
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Aye, I too am starting to think Jews should just make up their mind. One moment I'm told they're communists, the next that they're all anti-communist bankers, and the next something completely different. They should just pick one, so we know what to hate them for ;)
 
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Mycroft said:
I don't think anyone is stating that anti-Semitism is a stated core principle of communism, but it might be true that there is a strong positive correlation between people who are communist and people who are anti-Semitic. There is certainly a strong positive correlation between people who self-describe as communist and people who are anti-Israel.
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And there is a correlation between submarines and the ability to launch torpedoes, as most submarines in the world are military. It still doesn't mean that submarines necessarily carry torpedoes.
 
Originally Posted by Mycroft
There is certainly a strong positive correlation between people who self-describe as communist and people who are anti-Israel.

There is also a strong corrolation between Neo-Nazis and anti-Semitism. Does that mean all anti-Semites are Neo-Nazis?

Many Conservatives are racist. Does that mean racism is a core tenant of American Conservatism?
 
Mycroft said:
I don't think anyone is stating that anti-Semitism is a stated core principle of communism, but it might be true that there is a strong positive correlation between people who are communist and people who are anti-Semitic. There is certainly a strong positive correlation between people who self-describe as communist and people who are anti-Israel.
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The question then becomes, is there a strong correlation between people who are anti-Israel and people who are anti-semitic? I would agree that on the face of it, there is. However, I think the word "anti-Israel", as used here, is far too blunt to be of any use.

A simple test would be to see if these same self-described communists are against Jews in other contexts than in that of Israel and its external and internal politics. Do these self-described communists inconvenience, malign, attack, or protest against Jews in contexts where the politics of Israel are not relevant? As my claim (that they don't) would essentially be trying to prove a negative (self-described communists never do that), I assume it would be very hard for me to find hard evidence for my claim. However, I will say that in my experience (for whatever that is worth), I have never found this to be the case (I assume we are talking about present-day people here, though would be willing to expand, if necessary). I will add as evidence, too, my previous statement that anti-nazi protests and marches typically are organised by the left (which of course includes other groups than communists), and that people on the left, including those who self-identify as communists, are the predominating participants.

I would therefore argue that being anti-Israel does not necessarily imply that the same person or group of people is anti-semite. This may very well be the case (I assume most nazis are both, for instance), but it cannot be taken for granted without a thorough analysis.

There is also the matter or Palestine. Are these self-identified communists anti-Israel regardless of its politics, or are they pro-Palestine? Of course it is possible, or even likely, to be both, but is it necessary? I would like to think that it isn't, as I do self-identify as pro-Palestine, but also as pro-Israel. However, this can also be tested easily. Ask a number of self-identified communists whether or not they would be anti-Israel if things were different. If there was peace in the Middle East, and both the Israeli and the Palestinians had a solution everyone was satisfied with, would these self-identified communists still be anti-Israel? As you are no doubt aware, the left complains very loudly when they believe Israel does something bad to the Palestinians, but only rarely cheer when they do something good. I would certainly like to interpret this as the left being content with the way things are, as long as the Palestinians and Israeli co-exist peacefully, but whenever the former is mistreated by the latter, they protest. I would like to interpret this as them being mainly pro-Palestine, rather than explicitly anti-Israel, but I have little confidence in that my interpretation is correct. If it was, why would they not cheer as loudly when Israel does something good as they boo when it does something bad? Of course, uneven media coverage may be a factor as well.

These self-identified communists are often anti-Israel because they believe that the state of Israel unjustly occupies territory it has no right to, and treat the non-Jewish population in these (and other) areas unfairly. This may or may not be the case; that is irrelevant here. What is relevant, however, is whether or not these self-identified communists similarly protest other cases where the perceived facts are similar or identical. Again, I draw mainly from my experience and from my friends on the left (many of whom self-identify as communists), and conclude that this is the case. Moroccan occupation of Western Sahara is protested against, as was the American occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq, and as is the continued American occupation of the Native American lands. Granted, apart from the middle ones, these protests are not as vehement, but I believe that has a lot to do with media exposure and that no one really seems to be arguing for a continued occupation of Western Sahara, not outside Morocco, at least. The also protest against perceived oppression of a people by that people's own government, such as Iran.

I would therefore argue, based on my experience, that for several reasons, the term "anti-Israel" is too blunt to be equated, even implicitly, with anti-semite. Self-identified communists, in my experience, do not treat Jews or Israeli badly in other contexts, are typically pro-Palestine first and anti-Israel second, and do protest other cases which are similar in structure, but in which Jews play little, if any, part.

Mycroft said:
To use your analogy, there is nothing in veganism that has anything to do with your choice of route when you use your bicycle, but there might be a strong positive correlation between people who are vegans and people who choose a bicycle as a primary mode of transportation. Even though bike riding has nothing to do with veganism, it's entirely possible that a common group of values makes it so people who choose one are more likely to also choose the other.
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And then these values perceived as common between the two groups would need to be analysed. Veganism is often, but not always, tied to environmentalism and animal rights. The vegan typically does not eat meat for a reason, typically because of perceived cruelty to the animals or for environmental reasons. This is in line with the choice of transportation. If the vegan is vegan at least partly for environmental reasons, it makes sense that these environmentalist principles would be likely to colour other parts of her life as well. Going by bike instead of car could be one aspect of that. I therefore believe it is likely that there is a true correlation here.

In the case above, I believe this is not the case. Yes, I agree that there is a correlation between being left and being anti-Israel, but I dispute the implication that there is a correlation between being left and being an anti-semite. People who self-identify as communists typically have a strong sense of equality, and are vehemently anti-racist, while nazis and racist typically place a low value on general equality (although equality within the group may be honoured) and are (often openly) racist. This aspect would speak against self-identified communists sharing a common set of values with groups that we know are anti-semites, such as nazis.

ETA:
I notice now, upon rereading, that I started switching from "self-described" to "self-identified" in the middle of the post. This was unintentional, but I do not care enough to edit it.
 
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All Vegans breath oxygen. Does this mean that all who breath oxygen, are Vegans? One is not a true oxygen-breather, unless they are Vegan?

;)
 
Mycroft said:
Did the Bolshevik revolution attempt to stamp out anti-Semitism, or did it promote it?
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It did try to stamp it out. In 1920's and 30's USSR had Jews in positions they could never have attained in Tsarist Russia. And I read Soviet propaganda songs from that time which expicitely linked antisemitism with capitalism -- as in, both being "the enemy".

Russian culture however has been deeply antisemitic for centuries, and 20-25 years of contrary government policy could hardly eradicate it. And when Stalin suddenly made Jews a sanctioned target, traditional Russian antisemitism came right back.
 
Mycroft said:
There is certainly a strong positive correlation between people who self-describe as communist and people who are anti-Israel.
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hitler hated communism as much as he hated jews.
alongside the jews in the concentration camps were also millions of communists and queers.
you are also continuing the fallacy that critics of israel are also, necessariy, anti-semitic.
 
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Originally Posted by Mycroft
There is certainly a strong positive correlation between people who self-describe as communist and people who are anti-Israel were anti-Apartheid.

ftfy. I guess this means that anti-racism is big part of Communism.
 
Mycroft said:
I personally have always wondered about the connection between communism and hatred of Israel. It doesn't seem logical to me, except possibly as a relic of the cold war, which is my own personal theory.
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Israel is a US ally with a "capitalist" economy and Western culture. Commies hate those things.
 
I think Israel's capitalistic nature causes some of the ire it gets from communists!
 
Taarkin said:
I think Israel's capitalistic nature causes some of the ire it gets from communists!
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Israel has universal health care, and laws to limit how much corporate CEOs can earn. If anything, Israel is a quasi-Socialist state.
 
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