are communists necessarily anti-semitic?

bikerdruid said:
this presumes that the soviet union is the defining principle in communism, which is untrue.
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More than that, it presumes that the anti-Semitism in the Soviet Union only came after the Bolshevik revolution; in reality, Russian anti-Semitism has a history that goes back centuries at least. Pogroms and the "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" are two notorious bits of anti-Semitism to come out of the Russian Empire.
 
Cleon said:
More than that, it presumes that the anti-Semitism in the Soviet Union only came after the Bolshevik revolution; in reality, Russian anti-Semitism has a history that goes back centuries at least. Pogroms and the "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" are two notorious bits of anti-Semitism to come out of the Russian Empire.
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Just have to watch Fiddler On The Roof
 
MG1962 said:
Okay help me out here - by definition communism is against religion.
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No it isn't.
Cleon said:
More than that, it presumes that the anti-Semitism in the Soviet Union only came after the Bolshevik revolution; in reality, Russian anti-Semitism has a history that goes back centuries at least. Pogroms and the "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" are two notorious bits of anti-Semitism to come out of the Russian Empire.
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Monarchism is necessarily anti-Semitic ;)
 
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Also, even in the USSR, there were quite a few high-profile communists, including such die-hard communism proponents like Leon Trotsky and even willing lapdogs of Stalin like Yagoda, who were Jewish. But even before Stalin or even Lenin, there were plenty of Jews in both the Bolshevik and Menshevik factions of the communist party. I don't think all of those were anti-semites, were they?

Really, like any other ideology, it had Jews and Gentiles, nice people and evil pricks,egalitarians and racists, etc.

But even looking at what happened for the first couple of decades in Russia, anti-semitism was actually very much held in check in Lenin's time, and was arguably a lot less of a problem than in tsarist Russia. (Which, as was mentioned, was pretty anti-semitic.) Even Stalin in the early years actually denounced anti-semitism. During the Great Terror, the percentage of Jews purged was pretty much in line with their percentage among the categories purged, so while it was an atrocity and all, it doesn't seem to have targeted Jews more.

So, you know, even the USSR could function without being particularly anti-semitic for a while.

Stalin's anti-semitism seems to start around 1939, and then pretty much explode in 1948 after the creation of Israel. Suddenly Stalin thought that every Jew was a potential fifth column agent for Israel, which was aligned with the USA.

It's worth putting things in context, though. Stalin was a guy who had betrayed everyone who had ever trusted him, and had increasingly begun to expect nothing short of betrayal in return. Even in 30's, he was already seeing traitors and spies everywhere, and fearing everyone, and it got worse as time went by. By '53, he was actually getting his health checked by a veterinary, because he thought the normal doctors are in a plot to kill him. He was literally already seeing killers everywhere.

IMHO Stalin's rampant anti-semitism after '48 had bugger-all to do with either communism or Judaism. It was more like just his increasing paranoia. He was just convinced that some people are spying for another country aligned with his enemies.

Now I'm not saying it makes it right. There's nothing that can make murdering innocents right. I'm just saying that it had more to do with Stalin's own madness and delusions, than with any kind of communist doctrine.
 
There are anti-Semites who are also Capitalists. Does this mean Capitalism is an inherently anti-Semitic philosophy? Of course not. Just like how Communism is surely not.

The presumption in the OP, that Communism boils down to anti-Semitism, is ignorant and stupid.
 
Thunder said:
There are anti-Semites who are also Capitalists. Does this mean Capitalism is an inherently anti-Semitic philosophy? Of course not. Just like how Communism is surely not.

The presumption in the OP, that Communism boils down to anti-Semitism, is ignorant and stupid.
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i guess skeptic is not going to defend his position anytime soon.:(
 
Cleon said:
More than that, it presumes that the anti-Semitism in the Soviet Union only came after the Bolshevik revolution; in reality, Russian anti-Semitism has a history that goes back centuries at least. Pogroms and the "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" are two notorious bits of anti-Semitism to come out of the Russian Empire.
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Did the Bolshevik revolution attempt to stamp out anti-Semitism, or did it promote it?
 
Mycroft said:
It's not a "true Scotsman", eh?
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Quite the contrary, in fact. Pointing out that the defining part of a group does not include some extraneous tacked entity is actually not a No True Scotsman. The No True Scotsman fallacy is exactly when you try to tack such extra stuff upon a category.

So, you know, you could start with learning what the fallacies actually mean before invoking them.
 
you know, I've been learning about Communism since 1997. I don't recall ever reading that hatred of Jews was a core principle of Communism or Socialism.

maybe I was sick that day of class?
 
bikerdruid said:
i guess skeptic is not going to defend his position anytime soon.:(
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I asked him last year, when he said something similar, why it is that whenever there is a genuine nazi or racist group marching or demonstrating against something, the only counter-demonstrations are organised by the left. Conservatives, liberals, centrists -- judging from how often they put their alleged positions on racism and nazism into practice, the whole political right might as well not exist. Sure, there may be some individual liberals or conservatives marching against racism/neonazism occasionally, but never anything organised. Instead, the leaders and members of the various youth organizations of the liberal and conservative parties here will typically either ridicule the anti-nazi efforts, or portrait the anti-nazi protesters as either vandals and terrorists, or as people who are just in it to get a chance to beat someone up.

Why, if Skeptic's characterisation is correct, are the only people who are out protesting against anti-semites other groups of anti-semites? What would the second group of anti-semites be protesting against, if they support the same ideals as the first group? That the first group isn't doing it right? That they are too lenient and passive? Or is this just an aspect of the famous infighting among the various leftist groups? And, regardless of which, why aren't the liberals and conservatives out there protesting against both (or either) kind of anti-semites?

I am, of course, still waiting for a reply, which I assume will not be forthcoming, as it hasn't been for the last 13-or-so months. I guess it is just easier to denigrate your political opponents than to try to analyse your own political position.
 
Kotatsu said:
I asked him last year, when he said something similar, why it is that whenever there is a genuine nazi or racist group marching or demonstrating against something, the only counter-demonstrations are organised by the left. Conservatives, liberals, centrists -- judging from how often they put their alleged positions on racism and nazism into practice, the whole political right might as well not exist. Sure, there may be some individual liberals or conservatives marching against racism/neonazism occasionally, but never anything organised. Instead, the leaders and members of the various youth organizations of the liberal and conservative parties here will typically either ridicule the anti-nazi efforts, or portrait the anti-nazi protesters as either vandals and terrorists, or as people who are just in it to get a chance to beat someone up.

Why, if Skeptic's characterisation is correct, are the only people who are out protesting against anti-semites other groups of anti-semites? What would the second group of anti-semites be protesting against, if they support the same ideals as the first group? That the first group isn't doing it right? That they are too lenient and passive? Or is this just an aspect of the famous infighting among the various leftist groups? And, regardless of which, why aren't the liberals and conservatives out there protesting against both (or either) kind of anti-semites?

I am, of course, still waiting for a reply, which I assume will not be forthcoming, as it hasn't been for the last 13-or-so months. I guess it is just easier to denigrate your political opponents than to try to analyse your own political position.
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good pont, many in the AntiFa call themsef Communists.
 
HansMustermann said:
Quite the contrary, in fact. Pointing out that the defining part of a group does not include some extraneous tacked entity is actually not a No True Scotsman. The No True Scotsman fallacy is exactly when you try to tack such extra stuff upon a category.
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Please clarify. Is the "extraneous tacked entity" the USSR? Or is that something else?


HansMustermann said:
So, you know, you could start with learning what the fallacies actually mean before invoking them.
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He seemed to be saying that Soviet communism isn't true communism. If he meant to say something else and I misunderstood, that's one thing, but in that context I fail to see how that fallacy doesn't apply. Feel free to share your own opinion if you disagree.
 
Mycroft said:
It's not a "true Scotsman", eh?
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It seems to me that you have mistakenly made a reversal of terms. While the Soviet Union purportedly followed the principles of communism, communism as such does not necessarily follow the principles of the Soviet Union.

Compare:

One of the principles of veganism is that you should not eat meat.
I am a vegan, and claim to follow the principles of veganism.
Therefore, I don't eat meat.
Another of my principles is that whenever a car is parked on the bike path or pavement, I go the rest of the way wherever I am going on the car road.
This does not imply that all people who claim to be vegans take the road when the bike path is blocked, nor does it imply that this is a principle of veganism.
 
Mycroft said:
He seemed to be saying that Soviet communism isn't true communism. If he meant to say something else and I misunderstood, that's one thing,
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I believe he meant that no principle or action of the Soviet Union, even under the explicit pretext that it is in accordance with communist principles, necessarily and exclusively defines "communism" or its principles in other contexts. I could be a communist without conquering Berlin, for instance. I could also be a communist and disagree with governing principles of the Soviet Union, as communism predates the Soviet Union, existed elsewhere in parallel under other interpretations and with other principles, and continues to evolve to this day, with varying degrees of independence from the historical Soviet Union.

Apologies for posting several posts in a row instead of combining them.
 
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