Fundraiser for women's shelter turns into teabagger hate parade

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

What are you saying? Are their challenges in Islam that this passage in the Hadith is not true? So some Muslims insist that the infidels wrote those passages to give Islam a bad name? Give me a break, man. Show me proof of this. Show me proof that some Muslims doubt that this happened. How do they explain its writing. Weren't the Hadiths written as an account of Muhammad's life while he lived?

There are not only challenges to this one passage in this one Haddith, there challenges that this Haddith isn't true and that Hadiths in general aren't true. Google Qur'an-only Islam, that's an entire branch of Islam that doubts anything said in any Hadith is true.

The debate on its validity is very long, boring, and has nothing to do with the topic at all. My point wasn't that the Hadith is wrong, but that this passage is far from being regarded as universal truth amongst all Muslims.

And on the subject of who wrote it -- questions of authorship show up in religious works all the time. It may not be nefarious, as in infidels wrote it to give Islam a bad name, but it could also easily be that someone wrote down the wrong version of events long after they occurred.

In Iran, Muslims marry off their daughters before puberty to emulate Muhammad and many of these girls die because their bodies are not ready for the honeymoon they are obligated to enter into.

That's terrible; show me where the Qur'an says this is acceptable.

Memritv.org has many accounts of Immans going on TV and demanding this is true. I will dig some up to show you.

And Fred Phelps thinks that the most important message in the bible is that God really hates gay-folks. A casual understanding of the bible can tell you that, while condemned, it wasn't quite what Phelps is making it out to be. My point is that several Imams banding together and saying "this is what's true" doesn't make it so.

It is a true thing and it is not contested in Islam. Show me were a major sect of Islam says Muhammad did not have a 9 year old wife.

You managed to change the goal posts in the space of a single paragraph, well done. The majority of Muslims, who have not read the Hadiths I'm sure, would probably tell you that this isn't true. A majority of Islamic scholars would say "yes he did" and a growing minority say "no, it's not". I believe that was exactly what I said last time.

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

I look forward to your answer to the following question. Exactly how do you think I am thinking about this issue? I said that in Islam is it really OK to beat your wife. You responded, "true but not what you're thinking". So explain. How do you read my thinking on this issue. How I am I thinking?

You have an issue with not reading after a certain point...

I was told this by someone in the military who was stationed in Riyad, Saudi Arabia at the time. I will ask him to get in contact with you and I will send you a link.

No, no, no. I want a source from a reputable journal. Not someone who knows a guy who saw someone standing outside with a collection plate and told him the sign means "taking donations for Al Qaeda". It seems odd for a terrorist organization to fund itself in the same manner that the Humane Society does. I thought that's what they had drugs for?

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Two things Bill:

1) Address me here, not in my inbox.

2) I don't care what the man in your link has to say. You made a claim that Al Qaeda has set up collection boxes out in the open in numerous Middle Eastern countries. You should try backing that claim up yourself, rather than trying to pawn off the responsibility on someone else.

 

[Bill Thompson]

You have an issue with not reading after a certain point...

That is not an answer. Please answer my question. Let's try again. Exactly how do you think I am thinking about this issue? I said that in Islam is it really OK to beat your wife. You responded, "true but not what you're thinking". So explain. How do you read my thinking on this issue. How I am I thinking? I have read all the Islamic Appolgists writings who try to explain this away. I know that it is only after certain situations and all that. So how do you think I see this issue. Explain this. When you start off on the wrong foot and say something that implies you can read my mind, there is no use in my reading further until you clarify how you can assume you know what I have thinking and what I have read on this issue.

No, no, no. I want a source from a reputable journal. Not someone who knows a guy who saw someone standing outside with a collection plate and told him the sign means "taking donations for Al Qaeda". It seems odd for a terrorist organization to fund itself in the same manner that the Humane Society does. I thought that's what they had drugs for?

My source is someone who was there. It is better than a journal which can rely on hearsay. It is immediate. He was there. And I sent you a message explaining how you can contact him.

And your reliance on "journals" is laughable. I was in Lebanon and I later read a Newsweek article about a mission I was involved in and they got all the facts wrong because they relied on hearsay by people who they assumed knew what they were talking about.

My information comes from someone who was really there. Not a journalist who might interview people long after the fact.

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

That is not an answer. Please answer my question. Let's try again.

Honestly at this point the idea of trying anything with you makes my head hurt.

My source is someone who was there. It is better than a journal which can rely on hearsay. It is immediate. He was there. And I sent you a message explaining how you can contact him.

I don't want to research your claim for you. And I'm not going to accept his word for it.

And your reliance on "journals" is laughable. I was in Lebanon and I later read a Newsweek article about a mission I was involved in and they got all the facts wrong because they relied on hearsay by people who they assumed knew what they were talking about.

You must not have understood me. When I said that I would accept all of your personal anecdotes as evidence, I was being a tad sarcastic. In fact, even that "tad" is sarcastic. I'm not willing to accept any of your personal anecdotes as evidence.

 

[Bill Thompson]

It is a simple question. How do you think I understand the issue? The truth is, I have read a lot of Islamic Appolgists explain these passages. I have read how it is ok to beat your wife but only after this and that and you have to make sure you do not leave any marks on the face. I have heard Immans insist that a man must beat his wife after certain situations are met. It does not lessen the shock of the issue. It is never ok to beat your wife, man.

The fact also remains that you say "it is true but not how you think" implies that you do not see reality. You somehow believe that you know how I think. I would like to understand how you can belive that you know what I think. Do you believe you can read minds?

It is also a well established belief as far as I can see in all of the Muslim world that Muhammed had a 9 year old bride that he was sexually interested in when she was 6 years old. Please see the interview from a Saudi cleric:

'When a Girl Reaches the Age of Nine, She Becomes a Woman'
Saudi Cleric Muhammad Musa Al-Sharif Defends the Marrying Off of Under-Age Girls in Saudi Arabia
http://www.memritv.org/report/en/4011.htm
To view this clip on MEMRI TV, visit http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2399.htm.

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

So I can safely assume that you'll just continue the same talking point ad nauseum while ignoring everything else I've written because you know people, been places, and talked to guys, right? Well I guess I can just ignore you then.

 

[leftysergeant]

Weren't the Hadiths written as an account of Muhammad's life while he lived?

No.

In Iran, Muslims marry off their daughters before puberty to emulate Muhammad and many of these girls die because their bodies are not ready for the honeymoon they are obligated to enter into.

Seems to me some sects of Hinduism did that too.

It is entirely possible that some of the Ahadith are false. A lot of hisdeous traibla practices may have been inserted into Islam by shady shieks who claimed to have discovered a "lost" Hadith.

There is, for example, no mention in the Qur'an of female genital mutilation. It does, however, seem wide-spread even among non-Muslim African peoples.

It is a true thing and it is not contested in Islam. Show me were a major sect of Islam says Muhammad did not have a 9 year old wife.

Doesn't mean he banged her. Do learn something about the times in which they lived.

 

[leftysergeant]

It is a simple question. How do you think I understand the issue? The truth is, I have read a lot of Islamic Appolgists explain these passages. I have read how it is ok to beat your wife but only after this and that and you have to make sure you do not leave any marks on the face. I have heard Immans insist that a man must beat his wife after certain situations are met.

I have heard nutbar Christian cults sell the same crap.

 

[Bill Thompson]

I have heard nutbar Christian cults sell the same crap.

About what? For or against wife beating?

Anyway, please respond to http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6945017&postcount=54

I would still like to get into your belief that Osama bin Laden was never a champion of Islam.

Why are countless thousands of Afghan kids named after Osama bin Laden if he was never regarded as a champion of Islam?

In fact, he was regarded as a Champion of Islam by General Ali who openly asked Dalton Fury during the battle of Torra Borra why the US was attacking him when Al Qaeda had attacked the US before 9-11. Fury later realised that the Eastern Aliance was just playing along with the Americans and the British special forces to just "shoot and loot" and were mostly concerned about the aftermath and making sure their tribes were well funded and supplied when the Westerners left.

Fury later realised that relying on the Afghans to help in the attack on the compound was like asking Muslims to attack Muhammed. So, was Dalton Fury lyiing?

I want you to explain this to me.

Why did Zamanni stage a false Al Qaeda surrender in order to give the leaders of Al Qaeda time to escape if Osama bin Laden was not regarded as a champion of Islam? Also, if Osma bin Laden was not regarded as a champion of Islam, why did the Pakistani, alledgedly, wisk Osama bin Laden, two of his sons, and Zawakeri out on a helocopter (according to a Muuj eye witness)? If they didn't then why did the Pakistani give him safe passage in other ways into their country?

I think you really do not know what you are talking about and I have lots of discussions I have had with Muslims overseas that think very differently than you do to rely on.

I think maybe it is also possible that you never heard of Osama bin Laden before 9-11-2001. He did a lot of charitble work for the Afghans in the past after he helped drive the Soviets out. Saying he is was never a champion of Islam to me is an indicaiton that you are out of touch with the real world.

Why would fathers named their kids after him? Do you believe they were forced to or somehow thought it would make their lives better to appease the "terrorist"?

"Champion of Islam" is the title that a muslim I was chatting with online gave him after 9-11, in fact. And I have heard that title several times. So I would like to hear how you somehow think he never was. What are your sources? Where do you get your ideas?

Doesn't mean he banged her. Do learn something about the times in which they lived.

But he did

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&&sa=X&ei=0nhzTeH4A4nCsAPShInBCw&ved=0CBMQBSgA&q=did+muhammad+have+sex+with+a+9+year+old&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.&fp=3f7e0e632f1b567f

I do research. It is ironic I am accused of not doing research by people who don't.

 

[Dancing David]

@[email protected]:

... not true.
You have to be more precise with comments that someone can take either way.

To respond to,"Is this not true?" with "Yes, it is" can mean either, "yes, it is not true", or "it is true".

Are you Israeli? Do you really know?

It it true that the bible permits slavery?
Is it true that Christians killed millions of people in the name of Christ and that therefore Christianity is a violent religion that tolerates salvery?

 

[leftysergeant]

About what? For or against wife beating?

I haven't time to go look for them now, but I have seen articles in print (some of them decades back) of cults and small congregation around the world who object to domestic violence laws because they interfere with a husband's "right" to discipline his family.

Why are countless thousands of Afghan kids named after Osama bin Laden if he was never regarded as a champion of Islam?

For the same reason a lot of Iraqis named their sons after the Shrub.

"Champion of Islam" is the title that a muslim I was chatting with online gave him after 9-11, in fact. And I have heard that title several times. So I would like to hear how you somehow think he never was. What are your sources? Where do you get your ideas?

He was a champion to those who follow his whackadoodle cult. He was a champion to those extremists in Afghanistan whose side he supported in their internecine wars after the defeat of the Russians. The Iranians thought he was a turd after 9/11.

But he did

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&&sa=X&ei=0nhzTeH4A4nCsAPShInBCw&ved=0CBMQBSgA&q=did+muhammad+have+sex+with+a+9+year+old&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.&fp=3f7e0e632f1b567f

Still doesn't much matter. This was way before our current age of consent laws came into being. To a semi-nomadic people, onset of menstruation means availability for child-bearing. It is a matter of survival.

From your own source, Sunan, marked 3c, the commentator inserted:"That is to say: I menstruated.

So big freaking deal. That does not make him a child molestor in any significant sense, given the way that their society functioned in response to environmental conditions.

I do research. It is ironic I am accused of not doing research by people who don't.

And you still don't do it well. It was you who introduced here the idea that the Qur'an permits men to keep war-captive women as concubines.

Total crap.

 

[A'isha]

What are you saying? Are their challenges in Islam that this passage in the Hadith is not true? So some Muslims insist that the infidels wrote those passages to give Islam a bad name? Give me a break, man. Show me proof of this. Show me proof that some Muslims doubt that this happened. How do they explain its writing. Weren't the Hadiths written as an account of Muhammad's life while he lived?

...

It is a true thing and it is not contested in Islam. Show me were a major sect of Islam says Muhammad did not have a 9 year old wife.

Here you go. An exhaustive analysis of Aisha's age at the time of her marriage to Muhammad, quoting a huge number of hadith and other sources and not just the ones giving her "commonly accepted" age), and concluding that Aisha was at least 15 or 16 at the time of her marriage (which, for perspective, is as old or older than Mary was at the time of her marriage to Joseph).

The linked article, so you know, is from a website whose mission statement is "This is an endeavour at a comprehensive but not complex information resource for Dawah and Islah." (ie, spreading and reforming the faith).

EDIT: And don't mistake their use of the word islah to think they're wishy-washy and liberal.

 

[leftysergeant]

The linked article, so you know, is from a website whose mission statement is "This is an endeavour at a comprehensive but not complex information resource for Dawah and Islah." (ie, spreading and reforming the faith)

As opposed to BT's links to anti-Muslim sites.

 

[Meadmaker]

(Full disclosure, I lived in San Diego County for a few years, and never understood why anyone would live where the air they breathed was brown or beige).

I lived in the LA area briefly. When asked why I moved, I would say, "The ground is not stationary. The air is not transparent. It's just wrong."

 

[DavidJames]

Do you consider Osama bin Laden a champion of Islam or not?

As much as David Koresh was a champion of Christianity.

 

[bikerdruid]

I would still like to get into your belief that Osama bin Laden was never a champion of Islam.

the koran expressly forbids the killing of innocents.
therefore, obl is not a champion of islam, but rather an infidel.

 

[AlBell]

It it true that the bible permits slavery?

You know any Xians who support that view?

Is it true that Christians killed millions of people in the name of Christ and that therefore Christianity is a violent religion that tolerates salvery?

Hint. This is year 2011.

Got something more recent?

ps. Kudos to the thread titler: send me a recent photo and I'll provide posters showing you as the honorary teabaggee for future protests.

 

[bookitty]

You know any Xians who support that view?


Hint. This is year 2011.

Got something more recent?

ps. Kudos to the thread titler: send me a recent photo and I'll provide posters showing you as the honorary teabaggee for future protests.

Exactly. Both the Qur'an and the Bible are ancient books, much of their text reflects customs and ideas from the era in which they were written. It is possible to cherry-pick a world view from either of them but ridiculous to ascribe a literal application of every word to any follower of the various religions centered on either book.

ps: I have no idea what you are trying to say in your ps.

 

[Trakar]

...But he did

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&&sa=X&ei=0nhzTeH4A4nCsAPShInBCw&ved=0CBMQBSgA&q=did+muhammad+have+sex+with+a+9+year+old&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.&fp=3f7e0e632f1b567f

I do research. It is ironic I am accused of not doing research by people who don't.

How old was the pregnant Mary when she was married to Joseph?

I believe the initial betrothal took place at between 7-9 while Joseph was in his late 30s to early 40s, which were the common ages for such, whereas the actual wedding didn't occur until a couple years later after Mary was already pregnant. These were the customs and traditions across most of the planet until very recent modern times. You can argue the horrors from a modern perspective if you wish, but contextually, such is largely irrelevent and certainly not indicative of any character or moral flaw.