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Fundraiser for women's shelter turns into teabagger hate parade

I would think, if you were going to have a fund-raiser for an event, say, a women's shelter, you would try to find speakers who actually support women, rather than someone who's religious leanings and public stand is in support of people who wish you would shut up and learn your place.
When you do the opposite, and the speakers you invite are known to have views not in sync with your aims, and which are deemed, at best, "controversial" by the community you want and need support from, you might expect a bit of protest.
That said, the hundred or so who broke off and got downright nasty and rude are certainly not people I want to be associated with, and I certainly do not share their views.
I do, however, have suspicions about the actual purpose of a fund-raiser having such speakers present.
 
That is the start of real dialog, that is the beginning of listening instead of yelling. Is it better to shut him up if you can get him to change the subject instead?

For starters, I'm not shutting him up. I'm stating that I disapprove of him being present at this rally, being in a position where he may be construed in some manner as speaking for Muslims, and his views regarding Israel and a solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. He has every right to speak his mind, and whomever wishes may seek his services as a public speaker for whatever subject. I'm neither inclined to agree with him nor do I have to remain silent while he spews his bile.

Now, I don't really think that a dialog can start simply because he and I agree that women's shelters should be funded. It may be a good spot for us to get started on other topics but once the topic of Israel comes up is when the dialog would break down.
 
For starters, I'm not shutting him up. I'm stating that I disapprove of him being present at this rally, being in a position where he may be construed in some manner as speaking for Muslims, and his views regarding Israel and a solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. He has every right to speak his mind, and whomever wishes may seek his services as a public speaker for whatever subject. I'm neither inclined to agree with him nor do I have to remain silent while he spews his bile.

Now, I don't really think that a dialog can start simply because he and I agree that women's shelters should be funded. It may be a good spot for us to get started on other topics but once the topic of Israel comes up is when the dialog would break down.

Interesting, I see it differently. If people can stop shouting nonsense and listen for a change, there is the possibility of compromise and empathy. (Optimism is a form of coping with an insane world.)

In any case, no matter how controversial Malik Ali views might be, his presence at a fundraiser is no reason to target the people attending, to scream at small children or to call for murder of American citizens by the Marines. It's a bit difficult to pretend that the protesters have some sort of moral high ground.
 
Interesting, I see it differently. If people can stop shouting nonsense and listen for a change, there is the possibility of compromise and empathy. (Optimism is a form of coping with an insane world.)

We'll agree to disagree then. :) I don't feel like pushing an argument with no clear moral answer as it is.

In any case, no matter how controversial Malik Ali views might be, his presence at a fundraiser is no reason to target the people attending, to scream at small children or to call for murder of American citizens by the Marines. It's a bit difficult to pretend that the protesters have some sort of moral high ground.

Agreed, I hope I didn't give the impression that I'm in any way defending these people. My only gripe with certain posters in the thread, indeed not all, is that Malik Ali is an extremist who shouldn't be written off.
 
http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/03/03/orange_county_muslim_protest/index.html

It's like all the anti-Islam trolls left their computers and went outside together.

What does the term "Anti-Islam" mean to you?

So telling the truth is hate speech?

Isn't a politically incorrect truth better than a politically correct lie.

Did you read the article? The comments made by the people you label as speading hate were telling the truth.

The fact is, Muhammed really was a pervert if getting sexually excited by a 6 year old girl and marrying her when she is 9 is perverted.

And beating your wife really is OK in Islam.

And for protesting some people who are Muslim and are starting a charity or whatever, that is how Muslims roll and these protestors know more about Islam than you do. Before 9-11-2001 collection boxes outside of grocery and department stores for Al Qaeda could be seen all over Egypt and other Muslim Countries. Al Qaeda was no different than the Salvation Army in those cultures. Taking care of the poor and supporting Jihad is one and the same thing.

Just because the truth sucks, it is no exuse to wish it away or label the people who tell the truth as being bigots.

Your use of the term "Tea Baggers" to me means that it is you who are closed-minded and a bigot. Do you label entire segments of the population this way? The Tea Party is not even mentioned in this article that you link to http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/03/03/orange_county_muslim_protest/index.html

I wrote an email to Justin Elliott who wrote this article"

Hi Justin,

I would like to start an exchange of ideas with you. This exchange will be made public. If I am wrong, now is your chance to correct me.

I have had friends who were Muslim. They are great people. So it is easy to be blinded and not see what Islam is all about. Do you know what it is all about?

I noticed your article:
http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/03/03/orange_county_muslim_protest/index.html

It is wrong in may ways and on many levels.

Being against Islam does not mean you hate Muslims. So your use of the term "anti-Muslim" is ignorant, short sighted and stupid.

The fact that these people came out during a fundraiser might be a tear-jerker to the short sighted and naive and one is prone to have their emotions stirred and hate the protesters. But this is how Islam is structured. Al Qaeda helped a lot off important issues in Afghanistan. Osama bin Laden was a charitable person and many kids born in Afghanistan are named Osama because of the great things he did there.

And it is true that Muhammad married a 9 year old and Muslims worldwide seek to emulate this example.

And it is true that Muslims are permitted to beat their wives.
 
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So telling the truth is hate speech?

No. Telling lies is. Making threats is. Calling yourself something noble and your enemy something disgust as you climb out of the septic tank is hate speech.

The OC turds were engaged in hate speach and they should swallow their tongues and choke to death. Soon, please, without replicating your genetic stock.

Isn't a politically incorrect truth better than a politically correct lie.

When the teatards get a truth of ANY kind, I will refrain from calling them madmen and liars.

The fact is, Muhammed really was a perfect if getting sexually excited by a 6 year old girl and marrying her when she is 9 is perverted.

By our 21st Century standards, yeah. By 7th Century Arabic standards, not so much. Given their life span, the pagan Arabs had a frighteningly narrow window of fertility and a childless man was probably a dead ender.

And for protesting some people who are Muslim and are starting a charity or whatever, that is how Muslims roll and these protestors know more about Islam than you do.

I don't know who here knows more about Islam than the shrieking teatards in that video, but if what they know about Islam could be made into a lead brick and placed at the end of a ten-foot teeter-totter, I couldl drop what I know about Islam just from reading the Qur'an onto the middle of my end of that teeter totter and launch their crap from OC to D.C..

You are defending useless, disinformed idiots.

They are also sorry excuses for Americans and shoulld all go swimming with the sharks to improve our gene pool.
Before 9-11-2001 collection boxes outside of grocery and department stores for Al Qaeda could be seen all over Egypt and other Muslim Countries. Al Qaeda was no different than the Salvation Army in those cultures. Taking care of the poor and supporting Jihad is one and the same thing.

No. "Jihad" and "harb" are not "zakat."
Your use of the term "Tea Baggers" to me means that it is you who are closed-minded and a bigot. Do you label entire segments of the population this way?

Personnally, I call all Republicon extremist "teatards" to reflect my opinion that they all suffer the same mental defect with very minor variations on the same discordant theme.

The far right is not bright.
 
@[email protected]:

... not true.
You have to be more precise with comments that someone can take either way.

To respond to,"Is this not true?" with "Yes, it is" can mean either, "yes, it is not true", or "it is true".

Are you Israeli? Do you really know?
 
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No. Telling lies is. Making threats is. Calling yourself something noble and your enemy something disgust as you climb out of the septic tank is hate speech.

Where are the threats? What threats?

Taking apart something you do not like into sound bytes tells me a lot. It tells me that you do not have a possition apart from just not likeing what I say and you just want to change it.

Tell me this for starters. Do you consider Osama bin Laden a champion of Islam or not?
 
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Taking apart something you do not like into sound bytes tells me a lot. It tells me that you do not have a possition apart from just not likeing what I say and you just want to change it.

My position is that neither you nor the OC teatards have a clue what you are talking about.

Tell me this for starters. Do you consider Osama bin Laden a champion of Islam or not?
Not.
 
So exactly when did that happen? When did he go from a champion of Islam to not being a champion of Islam?
 
We'll agree to disagree then. :) I don't feel like pushing an argument with no clear moral answer as it is.



Agreed, I hope I didn't give the impression that I'm in any way defending these people. My only gripe with certain posters in the thread, indeed not all, is that Malik Ali is an extremist who shouldn't be written off.

You disagree most agreeably. :)

I wish I knew more about why Malik Ali was asked to speak. It may be that his community involvement is sincere but gets overlooked because of his less-humanitarian rhetoric. Or it could be that the ICNA was pandering to a small fraction that agrees with his views. Or he is a good friend of one of the organizers and begged for the spot. There is no way to tell for sure.

I only hope that this incident was a one-time aberration that both parties can get past. It's horrible to think of fellow Americans encountering that sort of bigotry.
 
He was never a champion of Islam....

Not according most Muslims I know. You say he was never a champion of Islam. So when he went to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan he was not a champion of Islam? Do you think Muslims would agree with you?

Even after 9-11-2001 I knew Muslims who would still consider him a Champion of Islam. In fact, it is from a Muslim that I got this title after 9-11.

I think even most americans would consider him a champion during the Cold War.

I get the feeling you did not know he was a great friend and ally of the the FBI and Regan considered him to be a hero. Did you see the 60 Minutes episode that lavished praise on him when he was a young man in the effort to drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan.

Maybe you never heard of him before 9-11-2001,

I think you are alone in thinking he was never a champion of Islam. I think your view of the world is yours alone.

Do you think he is a "bad guy"?
 
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Isn't a politically incorrect truth better than a politically correct lie.

Allow me to start this rant off thus -- you know nothing of Islam. Not even a passing layman's understanding, but absolutely nothing at all.

The fact is, Muhammed really was a pervert if getting sexually excited by a 6 year old girl and marrying her when she is 9 is perverted.

The fact is? No, no, no. The only sources that claim Muhammad married a nine year old were the Hadiths of Sunni Islam. And there is a world of difference between the Hadiths and the Qur'an. The Hadiths, for instance, is not above criticism in Islam where the Qur'an is. A minority, but increasing, view of Imams and Islamic scholars question the validity of Hadiths traditionally held as canonical. And the liberal Qur'an-onlyists, openly doubt whether the Hadiths say anything accurate in them.

This is of course ignoring a host of cultural reasons why child marriage was common amongst Bedouins of the era. If you want to criticize their culture, fine. But laying the fault at the feet of Muhammad because he's a "pervert" isn't entirely accurate. Laying it at the feet of "Islam", and all Muslims by extension, doesn't even register as a valid criticism.

And beating your wife really is OK in Islam.

True, but not what you're thinking. There is actually a very interesting line of thought regarding this, and the majority view from Islamic scholars seems to be that it is acceptable to hit your wife but Muhammad repudiated doing anything more touching her, condemning anything that would leave marks or even cause pain. It seemed to be more of a symbolic gesture that your marriage is going into the toilet as the next step involved either the Muslim equivalent of a divorce lawyer or the Muslim equivalent of couple's therapy. I say step, because the verse commonly cited gives sort of a step-by-step guide for how you should deal with an "unruly" wife. Sexist, yes. But it doesn't go all beaty on the woman which is down-right progressive considering the times.

And for protesting some people who are Muslim and are starting a charity or whatever, that is how Muslims roll and these protestors know more about Islam than you do. Before 9-11-2001 collection boxes outside of grocery and department stores for Al Qaeda could be seen all over Egypt and other Muslim Countries. Al Qaeda was no different than the Salvation Army in those cultures. Taking care of the poor and supporting Jihad is one and the same thing.

Wooow...can I see a reliable source for this little doozy?

Just because the truth sucks, it is no exuse to wish it away or label the people who tell the truth as being bigots.

It's perfectly acceptable when their comments don't even have a basis in paranoid fantasy. The "and rape your children" tidbit you conveniently dropped after the wife-beating part oddly seems to be missing in the Qur'an and Hadiths. Which makes sense as I don't recall seeing anything in any of those which could be construed as pro-incestuous rape. Painting an entire religion as being incestuous rapists strikes...hell, everyone...as bigoted.

As does the line where this charming woman, whom I hope loses her job, spoke positively of the notion that thereligious individuals Muslims terrorists would be killed by Marines. Seeing as how she is protesting in Orange County and not an Al Qaeda stronghold somewhere in the Middle East, I'm left to thinking she meant the Muslims that were present there. And how else does one interpret the time honored "Go back home *aka, Brownistan*" shout as anything other than bigotry, I'd love to hear it.
 
Allow me to start this rant off thus -- you know nothing of Islam. Not even a passing layman's understanding, but absolutely nothing at all.

That is it? That is all you have to say before going into your annalysis of of something else I have written.

Please elaborate. Just saying "hey, you know nothing about Islam". Is not saying anything at all. Why do you say I know nothing about Islam? What have I gotten wrong that you disagree with. Explain. Elaborate.

You are the one who does not know and is only relying on the one-sided reports from Western Media. I suggest you make some friends with some Muslims in Pakistan and Iraq and Palestine as I set out do to and did after 9-11 to learn about this subject.

You do know you are responding to a post directed to someone else, don't you?

leftysergeant, please respond to http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6945017&postcount=54
 
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The fact is? No, no, no. The only sources that claim Muhammad married a nine year old were the Hadiths of Sunni Islam. And there is a world of difference between the Hadiths and the Qur'an. The Hadiths, for instance, is not above criticism in Islam where the Qur'an is. A minority, but increasing, view of Imams and Islamic scholars question the validity of Hadiths traditionally held as canonical. And the liberal Qur'an-onlyists, openly doubt whether the Hadiths say anything accurate in them.

What are you saying? Are their challenges in Islam that this passage in the Hadith is not true? So some Muslims insist that the infidels wrote those passages to give Islam a bad name? Give me a break, man. Show me proof of this. Show me proof that some Muslims doubt that this happened. How do they explain its writing. Weren't the Hadiths written as an account of Muhammad's life while he lived?

In Iran, Muslims marry off their daughters before puberty to emulate Muhammad and many of these girls die because their bodies are not ready for the honeymoon they are obligated to enter into.

Memritv.org has many accounts of Immans going on TV and demanding this is true. I will dig some up to show you.

I have heard this written about on pro-Islamic web sites saying it was a blessing because after Muhammad's death there was a young wife who lived long enough to oversee the spread of Islam.

It is a true thing and it is not contested in Islam. Show me were a major sect of Islam says Muhammad did not have a 9 year old wife.
 
That is it? That is all you have to say before going into your annalysis of of something else I have written.

Oh, you must've been confused. You see, there was an entire post after that one sentence you decided to address.

You are the one who does not know and is only relying on the one-sided reports from Western Media. I suggest you make some friends with some Muslims in Pakistan and Iraq and Palestine as I set out do to and did after 9-11 to learn about this subject.

Yeah, I'm sure you did. And I'm also totally willing to accept your personal anecdotes as evidence.

You do know you are responding to a post directed to someone else, don't you?

Neither the laws of physics nor the rules of this forum prevent me from interjecting when, well, obvious ******** is obvious.
 
And beating your wife really is OK in Islam.

True, but not what you're thinking....

I look forward to your answer to the following question. Exactly how do you think I am thinking about this issue? I said that in Islam is it really OK to beat your wife. You responded, "true but not what you're thinking". So explain. How do you read my thinking on this issue. How I am I thinking?
 

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