General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Thunder]

the desire of some people to constantly defame, attack, and lie about all of Islam and all Muslims, is disturbing. we are witnessing something that has not occured since the 1930s and 1940s.

 

[Thunder]

What a slander. Quoting the actual texts amounts to hate-speech. Are you in favor of blasphemy laws?

are you?

Implying they would be bigots and murderers
kind, gentle, honest, and generous people if they weren't Muslims.

edited for accuracy.

IDB87- Do you hate Muslims?

 

[IDB87]

the desire of some people to constantly defame, attack, and lie about all of Islam and all Muslims, is disturbing. we are witnessing something that has not occured since the 1930s and 1940s.

Now we're going to equate criticizing religion to, what, Nazism/Stalinism?



What was 'lied' about, by the way?

 

[IDB87]

are you?

What does that even mean when you ask me?

edited for accuracy.

IDB87- Do you hate Muslims?

Implying they would be kind, gentle, honest, and generous people if they weren't Muslims.

Yes, that is true. Since they are already kind, gentle, honest and generous people, chances are they would continue to be that way if they were no longer Muslim.

This is pathetic.

 

[Thunder]

Now we're going to equate criticizing religion to, what, Nazism/Stalinism?

if the goal is to defame, insult, offend, and ultimately isolate and persecute Muslims, then yes...the analogy is fair.

I have no doubt that the extreme Islamophobes would certainly restrict the rights of Muslims in the USA and Europe..if they had their way.

Its already begun in Europe. Its only a matter of time before it begins in the USA.

 

[IDB87]

if the goal is to defame, insult, offend, and ultimately isolate and persecute Muslims, then yes...the analogy is fair.

Thunder, we are talking about simply reciting the texts as they are written. If this causes Muslims to be offended and insulted, should we hold our tongues when someone uses the Quran to justify a suicide bombing? What about when a Christian zealot murders an abortion doctor, should we not reference what the pope says about abortion?

We don't want to offend these groups, after all..

Where are the laughing dogs?

 

[Thunder]

Thunder, we are talking about simply reciting the texts as they are written. If this causes Muslims to be offended and insulted, should we hold our tongues when someone uses the Quran to justify a suicide bombing?

people can use any text to justify anything they like. A Muslim can use the Koran to justify a suicide bombing or giving blood to a sick child.

A wacko can use Doctor Suse to justify mass-murder, while a schizophrenic can use G.I.Joe to justify rape.

Evil people will find anything they want, in any text they like. It is their evil nature that drives their hatred of mankind, not religious texts.

If the Koran was indeed sooo evil, half the Muslim population would be suicide bombers....not .00001%

 

[IDB87]

people can use any text to justify anything they like. A Muslim can use the Koran to justify a suicide bombing or giving blood to a sick child.

A wacko can use Doctor Suse to justify mass-murder, while a schizophrenic can use G.I.Joe to justify rape.

Evil people will find anything they want, in any text they like. It is their evil nature that drives their hatred of mankind, not religious texts.

If the Koran was indeed sooo evil, half the Muslim population would be suicide bombers....not .00001%

Except you won't find justification for mass-murder in Doctor SUESS . Nor will you have an easy time finding any sort of justification for rape in G.I Joe.

Your suicide bomber, Jihadist, abortion doctor murderer, are (for the most part I would wager) normal, mentally healthy people who are compelled by religious creed to commit the crimes they do, and when they do, we can point to the Quran and find the justification - we can point to the bible and we can say "This is what makes these people do these things" and then we can question its' validity in our society.

 

[Thunder]

What about when a Christian zealot murders an abortion doctor, should we not reference what the Pope says about abortion?

err...the Pope doesn't call for the murder of abortion doctors.

not sure why you would say such a thing. and by the way, you meant Catholic, not "Christian" right? Only Roman Catholics value the words & teachings of the Pope.

 

[Thunder]

Your suicide bomber, Jihadist, abortion doctor murderer, are (for the most part I would wager) normal, mentally healthy people who are compelled by religious creed to commit the crimes they do,

yeah, that's it. they start out happy, stable, normal people, but just get sucked into terror and murder, by their evil religions. And BOOM!!!! they become psychopathic, racist, genocidal killers.



listen, I'm no fan of organized religion, but you appear to despise it with a passion hotter than the sun.

 

[IDB87]

yeah, that's it. they start out happy, stable, normal people, but just get sucked into terror and murder, by their evil religions. And BOOM!!!! they become psychopathic, racist, genocidal killers.

That tends to be the trend, yes. With suicide bombers, the tendency is to be religious first.

listen, I'm no fan of organized religion, but you appear to despise it with a passion hotter than the sun.

Why aren't you a fan of religion Thunder?

 

[Thunder]

That tends to be the trend, yes. With suicide bombers, the tendency is to be religious first.

i'd love to see your evidence that terrorist groups take happy, stable, successful, and mature individuals...and turn them into genocidal killers by simply reading them a few passages from the Koran.

yes, this evidence would be very interesting.

 

[IDB87]

i'd love to see your evidence that terrorist groups take happy, stable, successful, and mature individuals...and turn them into genocidal killers by simply reading them a few passages from the Koran.

Is that the position you want to take - that terrorists, jihadists and fanatics can't be happy, stable, successful and mature individuals?

But if you're asking for examples of indoctrination in the Islamic world, we can start with some shows on State television (Unless you won't accept that as any kind of relevant evidence?).

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

are you finding a problem with the muslims in alberta?
any i know are lovely folks.
met many edmontonian jihadists?

Were you aware that Edmonton is the home of the oldest mosque in the US and Canada? The Alberta muslim community has existed for more than 70 years with no terrorist attacks occurring in the province in that time frame.

No, Edmonton muslims are not part of the problem.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

SoT may be more religious than I am and can see the good in these sorts of faiths, where as I see them as incompatible with humanity and ultimately dangerous. Perhaps he/she is more optimistic than I am, perhaps he/she believes in the best of everyone where I gravitate towards the worst.

A bit of both, actually. To me, religion is just what you see on the surface. The real cause of these kinds of violence and barbarity is something more basic. Like greed, lust for power or general bigotry and prejudice. By bigotry and prejudice I mean the fear and hatred of those who are different for whatever reason, be they physical or philosophical/cultural differences.

Communism, for example, managed to bury every other contender for histories bloodiest "ism" without going the religious route. The Nazis may have been histories most infamous example of religious bigotry but what they did with their followers was for the most part create the illusion that jews had more wealth and then say "hey, let's go take their stuff". Something similar to the nazis may well have arisen in the economic conditions of 1930s germany even if there were no religious differences for people to pick on.

 

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by IDB87
Your suicide bomber, Jihadist, abortion doctor murderer, are (for the most part I would wager) normal, mentally healthy people who are compelled by religious creed to commit the crimes they do,

still waiting for that evidence.

 

[Thunder]

A bit of both, actually. To me, religion is just what you see on the surface.

IDB87 has expressed some very extreme views regarding Islam and Catholicism. Do you consider these views to be bigoted? Remember, you considered by view that capital funds should not be used for religious reasons to be bigoted.

I would hope for some consistency here.

 

[Virus]

Unfortunately, equivalence and relativism are the spirit of the age in the West. Nobody believes that communism and fascism are the same, but people will claim that Christianity and Islam are the same just because they are both religions. That's like saying a Jane Austin and a Robert Ludlum novel are the same because they are both books.

You can't just say that all religions are the same then split their believers into "moderate" and "extremist" camps. Nobody thinks of themselves as an "extremist".

Islam is an embodiment of 7th century Arab culture. It served as a vehicle for Arab imperialism by uniting the warring tribes, creating a giant super-tribe and redirecting their hatred to external targets.

Mohammed is a central figure in Islam. There isn't really a comparative figure in Western culture. Jesus is a mystical, probably mythical character that preached a message and got killed. He didn't slaughter opposing tribes, he didn't build an empire and he didn't promise a place in paradise for people who loot, raid and pillage. He never ****-ed a kid either. He was more concerned with preparing people's souls for the afterlife than establishing a state though raiding and plunder.

Now religions don't interpret themselves, and Muslims aren't walking Korans. Good cultures tame the religious impulse. Bad cultures impose stifling orthodoxy on themselves. Kosovo is a majority Muslim country but their style of Islam is like European Christianity because they have Western culture.

A bit of both, actually. To me, religion is just what you see on the surface. The real cause of these kinds of violence and barbarity is something more basic. Like greed, lust for power or general bigotry and prejudice. By bigotry and prejudice I mean the fear and hatred of those who are different for whatever reason, be they physical or philosophical/cultural differences.

Communism, for example, managed to bury every other contender for histories bloodiest "ism" without going the religious route. The Nazis may have been histories most infamous example of religious bigotry but what they did with their followers was for the most part create the illusion that jews had more wealth and then say "hey, let's go take their stuff". Something similar to the nazis may well have arisen in the economic conditions of 1930s germany even if there were no religious differences for people to pick on.

I agree with you about Communism but religion was not central to Nazism. The Nazis invented their own religion and wanted to replace Christianity with it. I also disagree that totalitarianism was just about taking people's stuff. Your average gangster takes people's stuff. Communism and fascism were large, fanatical utopian movements of mass-hysteria, imbibed with a strong cult of death involving in both mass-killings and suicide.

 

[Thunder]

Kosovo is a majority Muslim country but their style of Islam is like European Christianity because they have Western culture.

er...what is "European Christianity"?

is that Irish Roman Catholocism, that forbids abortion?

is it Scottish Presbyterianism?

is it German Lutherism?

is it Czech Hussitism?

is it Greek Orthodoxy?

 

[IDB87]

Originally Posted by IDB87 [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif[/qimg]
Your suicide bomber, Jihadist, abortion doctor murderer, are (for the most part I would wager) normal, mentally healthy people who are compelled by religious creed to commit the crimes they do,

still waiting for that evidence.

Do you understand the definition of context?

When I claimed those people were 'mentally healthy' it was in comparison to your example of a schizophrenic who would look at Dr. Seuss and find reason to commit mass murder.

As in: they are not clinically insane.