General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Thunder]

Who is a true follower of an inherently false religion anyway?

er....all religions are inherently false.

 

[Thunder]

Typical parky, tying yourself in knots to defend Hamas.

please stop lieing about my posts.

 

[bigjelmapro]

err...then why ask me questions?

Did you get confused by an end-of-line error or something?

Hilarious.

 

[Thunder]

Did you get confused by an end-of-line error or something?

Hilarious.

 

[bikerdruid]

They are the ones who are the threat. it's their brand of islam that is the problem.

are you finding a problem with the muslims in alberta?
any i know are lovely folks.
met many edmontonian jihadists?

 

[Skeptic]

The "most people just want to live a simple life without hurting others" is no doubt true for all religions -- as for humanity in general. But it is of little use in analyzing difference between religions, since, after all, it was equally true in (say) Inquisition-era Spain in Italy, the time of the crusades or the Islamic conquests, or in Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia. But that is no argument at all for claiming the Inquisition or the Jihadis or the Nazis are equaly benign as, say, modern liberal democracies.

 

[Thunder]

They are the ones who are the threat. it's their brand of islam that is the problem.

According to IDB87, its not a certain brand of Islam that is the problem, but Islam itself.

"Since religion (Islam in this case) leads to violent, racist, brutal and other negative behavior, it is not bigotry to point that fact out."

 

[IDB87]

According to IDB87, its not a certain brand of Islam that is the problem, but Islam itself.

SoT and I believe in the same outcome - murder, racism and barbarism in the name of religion. Its' origin is where we differ.

SoT may be more religious than I am and can see the good in these sorts of faiths, where as I see them as incompatible with humanity and ultimately dangerous. Perhaps he/she is more optimistic than I am, perhaps he/she believes in the best of everyone where I gravitate towards the worst.

How you make that into any sort of argument, or point to be made, is quite mind boggling.

 

[Thunder]

SoT may be more religious than I am and can see the good in these sorts of faiths, where as I see them as incompatible with humanity and ultimately dangerous. Perhaps he/she is more optimistic than I am, perhaps he/she believes in the best of everyone where I gravitate towards the worst.

if SoT believes that certain extremists, racists, and brutes have hijacked Islam and reinterprate its writings to justify murder & bloodshed of civilians, then he is indeed correct and understands rightfully that most religions can be expressed through love & kindness, but can also be abused into justifying hate & evil.

however, to suggest that Islam itself, is the problem..is bigotry.

edit: to suggest that Islam only motivates and inspires hatred and violence, and does not motivate kindness, love, and generosity..without backing it up..is bigotry.

 

[IDB87]

if SoT believes that certain extremists, racists, and brutes have hijacked Islam and reinterprate its writings to justify murder & bloodshed of civilians, then he is indeed correct and understands rightfully that most religions can be expressed through love & kindness, but can also be abused into justifying hate & evil.

When you say "reinterpret" do you mean to say "misinterpret"? If not, then you're claiming the justification of murder and bloodshed is already present in those texts and that the fanatics have once again used it as a pretext for their crimes. If you meant to say the fanatics have misinterpreted the texts, well, it's up to you to prove that.

to suggest that Islam itself, is the problem..is bigotry.

To say that I am a religious bigot wouldn't be far off the mark, I suppose. I am certainly intolerant of cults that promote racism, sexism, bigotry, homophobia, violence and superstition. Those views are completely incompatible with a democratic, liberal, pluralist society.

 

[Thunder]

When you say "reinterpret" do you mean to say "misinterpret"? If not, then you're claiming the justification of murder and bloodshed is already present in those texts and that the fanatics have once again used it as a pretext for their crimes. If you meant to say the fanatics have misinterpreted the texts, well, it's up to you to prove that.

To say that I am a religious bigot wouldn't be far off the mark, I suppose. I am certainly intolerant of cults that promote racism, sexism, bigotry, homophobia, violence and superstition. Those views are completely incompatible with a democratic, liberal, pluralist society.

no, as it is YOUR claim that:

"Since religion (Islam in this case) leads to violent, racist, brutal and other negative behavior,"

it is therefore YOUR burdon to prove.

 

[IDB87]

no, as it is YOUR claim that:

"Since religion (Islam in this case) leads to violent, racist, brutal and other negative behavior,"

it is therefore YOUR burdon to prove.

I guess the burden would be mine if there were no such thing as religious extremists.

But, since that won't satisfy you, start with this site:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

 

[Thunder]

I guess the burden would be mine if there were no such thing as religious extremists.

But, since that won't satisfy you, start with this site:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

linking to a site is not providing evidence. sorry.

now, lets say the site DOES indeed quote actual passages from the Koran that ain't so nice.

why does the site ignore passages that are benign or even benevolent?

what would you think of a website that only focuses on negative quotes from the Talmud, but ignores benign and benevolent ones? I'd call that bigotry. wouldn't you?

 

[IDB87]

linking to a site is not providing evidence. sorry.

It's the Skeptics Annotated Quran with links to actual passages that are broken down into lists like,

Injustice
Intolerance
Cruelty and Violence
Absurdities
Good Stuff
Homosexuality
Women
Contradictions

etc

Here's a few for your appetite:

2:39 But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.

7:80 And Lot! (Remember) when he said unto his folk: Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you? (regarding homosexuality)

2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

 

[bikerdruid]

It's the Skeptics Annotated Quran with links to actual passages that are broken down into lists like,

Injustice
Intolerance
Cruelty and Violence
Absurdities
Good Stuff
Homosexuality
Women
Contradictions

etc

Here's a few for your appetite:

2:39 But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.

7:80 And Lot! (Remember) when he said unto his folk: Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you? (regarding homosexuality)

2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

i don't suppose that it also lists topics like, 'kindness' love of neighbour', giving to the poor', etc...?

 

[IDB87]

i don't suppose that it also lists topics like, 'kindness' love of neighbour', giving to the poor', etc...?

It actually does.

Why are you two so afraid to look at a simple link?

 

[bikerdruid]

It actually does.

Why are you two so afraid to look at a simple link?

my dialup is very slow, so i don't check out many links...thanks.

so why is it that everyone only focuses on the bad stuff?
imagine if we did an slur of christianity by quoting all the nasty **** in the bible...

 

[Thunder]

for every negative quote in the Koran, I can find a just as kind and generous one.

these hate-sites that try to attack Christianity, or Judaism, or Islam, as evil...violent...brutal faiths...are just no different that the Protocols, der Sturmer, or The Jews and their Ways.

I have said before, all of the Muslims that I know are kind, generous, and caring people. Clearly Islam has not motivated them to be bigots or murderers.

 

[IDB87]

so why is it that everyone only focuses on the bad stuff?
imagine if we did an slur of christianity by quoting all the nasty **** in the bible...

Because the bad stuff causes people to kill each other. The good stuff is arguably innate in all of us.

 

[IDB87]

for every negative quote in the Koran, I can find a just as kind and generous one.

There are over 500 passages that fall in the 'cruelty' group, over 700 in the injustice group, and another 500 in the intolerance group. Of course we can assume there are duplicate passages in all groups, but the point is made.

Good things in the Quran: 75.

That "for one bad thing, there's a good thing" ratio will become rather skewed rather fast..

these hate-sites that try to attack Christianity, or Judaism, or Islam, as evil...violent...brutal faiths...are just no different that the Protocols, der Sturmer, or The Jews and their Ways.

What a slander. Quoting the actual texts amounts to hate-speech. Are you in favor of blasphemy laws?

I have said before, all of the Muslims that I know are kind, generous, and caring people.

And I pointed out that they were probably that way all along. Do you think children are evil sadists until they are able to understand the vile teachings of the Bible or the Quran?

Clearly Islam has not motivated them to be bigots or murderers.

Implying they would be bigots and murderers if they weren't Muslims.

Nasty slanders, Thunder.