Merged Skeptics vs. Knowers/Believers

[Nonpareil]

Both of which have the same general description...

Pardon me, but since when have winged, white-robed humanoids playing trumpets been described using the same words as metallic flying machines?

 

[King of the Americas]

I'm skimming Ezekiel to see if he saw six at least seven lights making right turns, but in the first part he claims to have seen a 4 creatures with wheels instead. I'm wondering if towards the end of the book they start flashing blue and red, but I'm up to chapter 10 and all that has changed so far is that now it's a cherub instead of an ox.

Broaden your search...

 

[aggle-rithm]

Pardon me, but since when have winged, white-robed humanoids playing trumpets been described using the same words as metallic flying machines?

All that stuff is meant to be allegorical....

 

[carlitos]

Broaden your search...

But I did broaden my search, and you predictably ignored my post. For instance, I noted that, back in 2003, you omitted details like "undulating red and blue" from your story, and that your specific number of "crafts" changed from 6 to at least 7 after a couple of years. You also changed the shape from "cigar" to "saucer." Maybe you missed it, so I'll repost in anticipation of your reply.

I suggest you mine this forum for in consistencies and then point out how my memory has changed...if it has.

2003:

i said it was true because i saw star-like objects(6), emitting a visible light, move with a constant velocity and make right-angle turns, and move in cordination with one another, and at one point disobey the laws of physics. And i have seen more than one other example of this event in a video recording, that couldn't be identified with any terresterial craft. And that this same 'theme' is present in every form of media throughout the ages...is what leads me to this 'finding'.

since when is a light not an object? This was at night, there were a half a dozen of them, and they performed tasks that no terresterial pilot could. Moreover, their ability to disobey the laws of physics, as i understand them led me to this unearthly conclusion.

2005:

when i was like 24, a friend of mine and i were out in the country, near the red river, when we saw no less than 7 airborne 'crafts'...or things, that resembled star-like objects move in ways no terresterial-piloted vehicle could. They performed manuvers like making right angles turns with a constant velocity, and at one point 2 headed toward one another- became one - and then seperated again into two different things again...

...
That what i saw was 'probably' aliens is my stance, not that i could prove any such thing, but that i would like to rely on occam's razor...

The way i see it, there could be any number of theories that would explain what i saw. But that the 3 most likely are these: 1.) both of us could have imagines the whole thing. 2.) what we saw was a super secret terresterial craft, an uav of some sorts capabled of changing its physical form, or 3.) that there is 'some' truth behind the myths and stories written about a "god" who exists in the heavens.

I would like to boldly say that of these the first is the more unlikely, given that for 2 seperate unrelated people, uninduced by drugs or alcohol, to have the exact same hallucination would be odd, indeed.

So, what i saw was either man-made or it wasn't. Within the event i witnessed, these craft did several astounding things, some feats i have heard of and seen, while others i had not. Initially, the star-like objects moved into position, and merely 'held' their position. This was not a really big deal, because i know the helicopters can do virtually the same manuver (except that these craft moved silently). Their next feat did however raise my eyebrow, as well as my friend's. They moved, and 'seeming' without slowing down, turned at a right angle or greater. This was odd, in that i had 'heard' of some new military craft utilizing 'directional exhaust', but that the g-forces put upon a pilot's body would limit how fast turns could be accomplished. Still, a uav with the right engineering make-up might be able to simlate such feats, given the right conditions. But why would the government be showing off these things to a couple of country bumpkins??? Believe it or not, that question actually went through my mind at one point...then two of them headed for each other at a greater speed than either had previously moved. Then they did something i had never seen or heard of aircraft doing, while airborne, they became one.

Now, this was odd, moreso than anything i could have expected to see in the sky. Moreover, their joining was marked by a multiplied size. Like when you take 2 small clay balls and join them together, you expect to get 1 medium size ball. Or a ball twice the volume of one of the balls. Well, the appearance of the larger entity was "4 times" as large as the single units. So, i look to my friend and ask, "did you see those two head toward one another...?"

and he responded before i could finish, "...and join up to make a really big version of themselves.", yes, i did.

Then we looked back up at it and it seperated again into it smaller parts.

2008:

my friend and i were scouting out a place to go camping right near the bank of the red river near gainesville texas, when i saw an unusual cloud formation/shape in the sky due north of our position. I saw it was 'unusual' because it was oddly semetrical. It looked cigar shaped, with very tapered ends. Stuff is almost never perfectly semetrical in nature, so i got a thought in my head, to use this unusual shape to screw with my friend.

I said, "hey jon, look at that ufo, man!" "that just a cloud, man...", he rebuked. "no, look how perfectly semetrical it is. That not just a cloud, it is something else!", and then i began flashing my headlights with high beam on, at it. After my second series of flashings, the right side of the cloud-looking object "shrank", and instead of a tappered edge, it seemed to "square off", like someone had used a cigar cutter on the end.

My friend and i just sat there in stunned silence. All this happened in about 2-3 minutes, at around 7:45-8:00 during the early to mid-summer. It was light enough to still see a potential camping site, but the sun was retreating quickly and stars were just beginning to appear.

Once the cigar shaped 'cloud-ufo' squared itself, and the initial shock wore off, i began flashing my lights again, in an attempt to get a reaction...which my friend was totally against.

The result of my flashing was for a 'star-like' object to appear at the squared edge of the cigar. Then the object took off in a straight line and then held its position, only to have another similiar object emerge from the cigar shape, which also took to a position and stopped. This continued to happed untill there were 7 such objects. Then they started to move in concert with one another. The first one to move made an "l" shaped flight pattern, and stopped. Then another made a "z" shaped flight path, then two others moved toward one another, joined together, and increased their "size" by 4 fold. If you take 2 pieces fo clay and mash them into one ball the size of the ball doesn't increase dramatically. These 2 objects, after joining together, did.

So, to answer your question, i saw both- something that had "shape", and mere "lights".(*i have told this tale more than once, here. I am sure you could read my initial account somewhere here.)



there was nothing 'obvious', about what we saw that evening, except that it was obvious that i had never seen anything like this before.

the 'objects' i saw were brightly lite, and 'undulating' in colors of red, white, and blue. They 'performed' ariel feats unattainable by human pilots. Our planes 'bank' as they turn. They 'arch' through the sky, even the directional exhaust of the f-22 raptor can't achieve the "right-angle turns" these craft managed repeatedly.

2009:

the area known as the bottom is huge, the northern edge of cooke countyis a rock bluff, that forms a ridge. There is a gravel road that turns west from atop the bluff, and travels down and along side to 75 yards away from the red river itself, and then goes back up and out onto the higher bluff. The difference in elevation probable isn't over a hundred feet.

The sky was clear, except for this huge gray 'semetrical' saucer looking cloud. I decided to try to screw with my friend telling him, "hey man look at that ufo! Look at how perfectly semetrical that cloud is. It's a ufo!" and i started flashing my headlights at it and honking.

To which it 'responded'...

...by sucking in and squaring off it's eastern edge...

...that's when the star-like objects emerged, one after the other from the squared off edge, each one zooming off to a fixed position, until there were 7 in total. Then they started to move, each move being more complex or difficult, right angle turns while maintaining a consistant speed. They didn't 'bank' and turn in the manner i am familiar with. The last thing they did was the first one that emerged and the last one headed toward each other, 'combine', and result in a 4-fold larger verson of itself (this really blew my mind, because i didn't expect something that big to result. When you put two clay balls together, you don't get something that looks 'twice' as big as the two separate entities. These two things...), i looked over at my friend and asked "did you just see two of them head toward each other...", and he interupted "...combine and make a big ass version, and then split apart again?" "yeah.", i responded.

The area has a ranch house ever square mile or 2. It's texas, there's lots of space.

There's an tiny town called burneyville about 3 miles north northwest, and they have a small airstrip.

Consistencies include "star-like objects" (in the night sky!), them appearing to emerge from the edge of the symmetrical cloud, right-angle turns and "light," plus the 2 lights converging to appear to be one bigger light.

Inconsistencies include "light" evolving to oscillating/undulating red / white / blue, 6 objects becoming "no less than 7," "cigar" shaped vs. "saucer" shaped (this is probably a perspective thing, like the Rramjet blimp sighting).

The red / blue thing could be a recent addition, or it could be that he's conflating it with this sighting of light blue "thunderless lightning"? In any case, the level of detail varies, but that's to be expected. KotA, please feel free to clarify.

King of the Americas, I'd still be interested in seeing your original version. We might all learn something from it.

 

[aggle-rithm]

How about the whole making man out of clay, and breathing life into him...of course explaining that would be tough.

Not at all. It can be explained as a traditional but untrue narrative.

MOST of these tales can be. It's the most obvious explanation.

A notable exception is the plagues visited on Eqypt as described in the Old Testament. Scientists have actually come up with a plausible mechanism for everything described there; a complex chain-reaction of events with naturalistic causes.

 

[RoboTimbo]

How about the whole making man out of clay, and breathing life into him...of course explaining that would be tough.

Yes, that would work. Where is this man who was made out of clay so that we can examine him to make sure it isn't a fairy tale? Any links to peer reviewed journals that have reported on this miracle?

 

[King of the Americas]

But I did broaden my search, and you predictably ignored my post. For instance, I noted that, back in 2003, you omitted details like "undulating red and blue" from your story, and that your specific number of "crafts" changed from 6 to at least 7 after a couple of years. You also changed the shape from "cigar" to "saucer." Maybe you missed it, so I'll repost in anticipation of your reply.

WELL DONE!

Thank you for this work. I'm sure it took some mining.

That said, I don't see a lot of discrepancy in the details I provided.

"6" to "7"...bothers me a bit however.

A tapered cigar to a saucer is the same thing in my mind's eye.

 

[Nonpareil]

That said, I don't see a lot of discrepancy in the details I provided.

...except for the fact that the shape, number, color, and behavior of the objects changed over time, right?

"6" to "7"...bothers me a bit however.

It shouldn't. All it shows is that you're human. Your memory is fallible. This shouldn't be news.

A tapered cigar to a saucer is the same thing in my mind's eye.

Really now? These two shapes look the same to you?

 

[King of the Americas]

...except for the fact that the shape, number, color, and behavior of the objects changed over time, right?

...

EXCEPT that the only thing that changed was the number, by a single digit. Still, I accept that my memory was not 100% accurate.

This must mean that ALL of my memories are flawed, right?

Maybe I was born on the 24th, or 22nd. Maybe I am 34 or 36, maybe I graduated in 93, or possibly 95. I mean, maybe my whole life has been off by one digit!

The pictures you posted lacked the correct perspective to see that the two objects I mentioned DO have a similar shape. The 'side view' of a saucer looks quite different than the top view.

 

[RoboTimbo]

EXCEPT that the only thing that changed was the number, by a single digit. Still, I accept that my memory was not 100% accurate.

This must mean that ALL of my memories are flawed, right?

Maybe I was born on the 24th, or 22nd. Maybe I am 34 or 36, maybe I graduated in 93, or possibly 95. I mean, maybe my whole life has been off by one digit!

The pictures you posted lacked the correct perspective to see that the two objects I mentioned DO have a similar shape. The 'side view' of a saucer looks quite different than the top view.

In 2008 you said you flashed your headlight high beams on and off. In 2009, you flashed your lights and honked your horn. In your earlier postings there was nothing about flashing lights or honking horn. It is now 2011, how much more detail has your memory filled in?

 

[King of the Americas]

In 2008 you said you flashed your headlight high beams on and off. In 2009, you flashed your lights and honked your horn. In your earlier postings there was nothing about flashing lights or honking horn. It is now 2011, how much more detail has your memory filled in?

I both flashed my headlights AND honked the horn. Although, in retrospect, I am guessing it was the lights that did it, rather than the horn. Neither was actually intended to signal a U.F.O. I was just trying to screw with my buddy...then the gray cloud changed the shape of one end and the show started...

 

[RoboTimbo]

I both flashed my headlights AND honked the horn. Although, in retrospect, I am guessing it was the lights that did it, rather than the horn. Neither was actually intended to signal a U.F.O. I was just trying to screw with my buddy...then the gray cloud changed the shape of one end and the show started...

Yes, the horn detail that was added in 2009. The cigar shaped/disk shaped cloud that became 6 (or 7) objects. Did the maneuvers that you remember it (or them) making defy physics?

 

[Stray Cat]

EXCEPT that the only thing that changed was the number, by a single digit. Still, I accept that my memory was not 100% accurate.

This must mean that ALL of my memories are flawed, right?

No one is saying that. Only that as there is no verification of your memories, they can not be relied upon as much as you regularly do.

Maybe I was born on the 24th, or 22nd. Maybe I am 34 or 36, maybe I graduated in 93, or possibly 95. I mean, maybe my whole life has been off by one digit!

The most contentious issue with world records such as 'the oldest person in the world' are that in some cases no verification records can be provided. And people's memories of when they were born are not considered as conclusive proof of a person's age. I'm sure that you could verify your age and birthday from accurate verifiable written records made at the time of your birth. But it's good to know that you may starting to realise the importance of not relying solely on your own memory.

The pictures you posted lacked the correct perspective to see that the two objects I mentioned DO have a similar shape. The 'side view' of a saucer looks quite different than the top view.

Ironically, we've been here before with Rramjet. I agree that when 'cigar shaped' is used, it can be a 'profile only' description of a saucer. It can also of course be a long tapered dare I say 'blimp like' object.
I'll also point out that the cross section (or front elevation) of a 'cigar shaped object' can look more like a round profile as in this mysterious case of a UFO that changed shaped in mid flight.

BTW, I'm not saying you saw a blimp (or 6 or at least 7) perform right angled turns that defied the laws of physics whilst oscillating in white, red and blue.

 

[Correa Neto]

Confusing two similar sized type of sea vessels would indeed be easier, than mistaking a pink bouncing cube for a dyed loin. Things with common traits COULD easily be mistaken for something else. It is when ALL the familiar cues are absent that one is left reaching for the U.F.O. tag.

Oh, really? WWII cargo ships and tankers look like aircraft carriers and are about the same size? Their escorts were also supposed to be of the same type and numbers? Read about WWII battles at the Pacific, please. Once you got yourself informed, try to imagine the many factors that may have induced the mistake (tragic for one side and a bless for another). You will see that one may be particulary important regarding your sighting.

Please also try to adress the others and extract lessons which can be used to show where your mistakes may lie.

Here they are again:

A jet looking like a F-16 with canards in Europe, back in the mid-50's.

Some crewmen of a millitary ship being fooled, mistaking a star for an UFO for two consecutive nights.

What has changed about my story?

So, by now, I guess you know that we know.

 

[King of the Americas]

Yes, the horn detail that was added in 2009. The cigar shaped/disk shaped cloud that became 6 (or 7) objects. Did the maneuvers that you remember it (or them) making defy physics?

I think if we were to get an even earlier version of the story, we'd see "6" objects, and that I both flashed my headlights and honked my horn.

The maneuvers my friend and I witnessed broke what 'I' know to be the laws of flight within our atmosphere. The union move broke what I deem to be a law of physics.

Combining 2- 1 lb clay balls into one wouldn't make a ball that looked 4 times as large as the 1 lb original.

And the cigar shaped cloud didn't 'become' the star-like objects. The objects emerged from it.

 

[Crocoshark]

If you think it is an undiscovered meteorological phenomenon, you need evidence to support that.

I have no commitment to that speculation, it was just an example alongside "something we don't know about psychology". I'm just not convinced that what we do know fully explains all reported "UFO sightings". and think some more scientific experimentation is merited beyond what I've seen so far. I could be wrong, and my memory of the things that actually lead me to this conclusion is actually foggy. But I'm not interested enough in the subject to spend long researching and debating it. *shrugs*

 

[RoboTimbo]

I think if we were to get an even earlier version of the story, we'd see "6" objects, and that I both flashed my headlights and honked my horn.

Do you see how it appears that your story has changed over time and why people want you to consider the fallibility of memory?

The maneuvers my friend and I witnessed broke what 'I' know to be the laws of flight within our atmosphere. The union move broke what I deem to be a law of physics.

We know memory and perception can be fooled. Knowing that, why do you believe that aliens coming to our planet can break laws of physics rather than your perception was fooled?

Combining 2- 1 lb clay balls into one wouldn't make a ball that looked 4 times as large as the 1 lb original.

And the cigar shaped cloud didn't 'become' the star-like objects. The objects emerged from it.

And yet you've claimed both a cigar shape and a saucer shape and claimed that it was simply different aspects presented to you of the same object. If I were looking at a blimp head on it would appear circular, if it then turned so that I could see it in profile, it would appear to be cigar shaped and would appear to be have grown in size.

I'm just offering an explanation how things can look larger or smaller depending on what aspect they are presenting to you. Feel free to say it wasn't a blimp, that isn't the point.

 

[carlitos]

I think if we were to get an even earlier version of the story, we'd see "6" objects, and that I both flashed my headlights and honked my horn.

Evidence, please? Feel free to post a verifiable "earlier version" that includes the red / blue thing too, while you're at it. Just to clarify, that lightning story that I linked, where you saw the light blue silent lightning, that was of a different event, right? You weren't trying to maybe be a little coy about this event by calling it lightning?

 

[King of the Americas]

Do you see how it appears that your story has changed over time and why people want you to consider the fallibility of memory?


We know memory and perception can be fooled. Knowing that, why do you believe that aliens coming to our planet can break laws of physics rather than your perception was fooled?


And yet you've claimed both a cigar shape and a saucer shape and claimed that it was simply different aspects presented to you of the same object. If I were looking at a blimp head on it would appear circular, if it then turned so that I could see it in profile, it would appear to be cigar shaped and would appear to be have grown in size.

I'm just offering an explanation how things can look larger or smaller depending on what aspect they are presenting to you. Feel free to say it wasn't a blimp, that isn't the point.

You are mischaracterizing my statements.

I only saw the cigar shaped cloud from a single perspective. Posting a picture of a plate from the top down, rather than from the side, and then comparing it to a picture of a cigar is a tad intellectually dishonest.

 

[King of the Americas]

Evidence, please? Feel free to post a verifiable "earlier version" that includes the red / blue thing too, while you're at it. Just to clarify, that lightning story that I linked, where you saw the light blue silent lightning, that was of a different event, right? You weren't trying to maybe be a little coy about this event by calling it lightning?

Indeed, that was an entirely separate event.

That was a weird thing to see, also, but it was in no way similar to the star-like objects sighting.