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Merged Skeptics vs. Knowers/Believers

Confusing two similar sized type of sea vessels would indeed be easier, than mistaking a pink bouncing cube for a dyed loin. Things with common traits COULD easily be mistaken for something else.
Points of light against an otherwise featureless black sky for instance?

It is when ALL the familiar cues are absent that one is left reaching for the U.F.O. tag.
It is when not enough information to identify a flying object is available that people reach for the UFO tag.
 
Points of light against an otherwise featureless black sky for instance?


It is when not enough information to identify a flying object is available that people reach for the UFO tag.

When did I describe them as "points of light"...? ("Star-like objects that oscillated red, white, and blue" sounds more like me.)

I agree. If I saw a craft up close enough to see it manned by little gray men at the helm, then I wouldn't reach for the U.F.O. tag at all. I would just say it was a "spaceship piloted by little gray dudes".

What 'I' saw were U.F.O.'s flying in coordination with each other, doing things our pilots and planes could not. To date, I have found no craft or phenomena that resembles what I saw.
 
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They were star-like in appearance in that they weren't 'solid', but rather sparkled as though they were light...

They weren't stars, however, because they didn't look like 'distant' points of light.

Admittedly I can't say that they WERE 'material' objects. They certainly didn't perform or behave like any material I know of.
Dude, just post a scan of your journal entry, with any bits you don't want to share redacted.
 
2 things really...

-right angle turns
-combining to make a "big ass version of themselves"

This atop their over maneuvers and origin was enough to push it out of our realm of possibility.

---

This forum's archive only goes back to 2010...???

:(

Why do you believe those two things to be beyond terrestrial technology?
 
When did I describe them as "points of light"...? ("Star-like objects that oscillated red, white, and blue" sounds more like me.)
A star is a point of light... No matter how much it oscillates and changes colour. It is an oscillating, colour changing point of light. :rolleyes:

What 'I' saw were U.F.O.'s flying in coordination with each other, doing things our pilots and planes could not. To date, I have found no craft or phenomena that resembles what I saw.
And no doubt you never will. Because every time someone suggests an alternative you will just say "No that's not it" and claim your preception is perfect and your memory is perfect (against all evidence of human fallibility)
 
Dude, just post a scan of your journal entry, with any bits you don't want to share redacted.

No one, not my father, sisters, or even my fiancee has seen a single page of my journal. Why would I show some yahoo online, who would find its contents as worthless as the words I say here and now???

I suggest you mine this forum for in consistencies and then point out how my memory has changed...if it has.
 
Someone witnessed a glowing fish, something completely unheard of and or 'alien' to them. Certainly no one had ever seen something like this first hand, much less recorded its existence. This lone witness held an accurate report of real creatures.

It would take years for him to be vindicated and were someone to claim they had seen glowing fish, a marine biologist might ask him to describe it, so that he could name it for him.

The REALITY is that these fish have probably existed for billions of years, only in the past 100 has anyone known of their existence. They existed BEFORE science recognized them, but the tip of the explorative sword held the truth the whole time.

We dismissed an account of truth regarding a new discovery, to our detriment.

...Your point?

Seriously, King, this isn't hard to understand. We are not saying that you definitely didn't see an alien spaceship (or whatever you want to call it. I don't care). We are saying that you have no proof whatsoever, not even the slightest smidgen of evidence, supporting your contention that it was an alien spaceship. It could have been, but we have no reason to believe it.

It's the same thing in the glowing fish scenario. Until the scientist comes back with his glowing fish, his anecdote is not evidence of that fish's existence. It is an indication that such a fish might exist, but not an actual indication of it. He has to find the fish to prove his anecdote valid.

*If a King, upon hearing of an approaching army, sent out a scout to bare witness to this invading army and what types of armaments they planned to employ, AND to take pictures.

The scout witnesses that the invaders have only a series of catapults, no calvary, archers, and only a few infantry men. Sadly all the pictures were lost, over-developed, rendered useless. The King has to develop a defense strategy and looks to his war counsel. The 'skeptics' argue that the scout COULD be wrong, that maybe he just didn't 'see' the calvary and archers, and that ANY defense plan should ignore any report of catapults without pictures of them. The scout himself argues that a small team of demolition assassins should be sent out to destroy the looming artillery...

Should the King take the word of a single man, or should the skeptical argument win the day? Should he send out a small demolition team, or empty out his own calvary and archers to make a full defense?

There is a war on, and every unit is invaluable...

'I' heed my scout's report.

Be as skeptical as you'd like. It won't deliver you timely truth.

Please, King, let the straw man go. He didn't do anything to you. Beating him with that pipe is just cruel.

The skeptical argument, in the above case, is not to dismiss the scout's report entirely. It is to send out more scouts for confirmation. While waiting for their return, it is safest to assume that there are cavalry units, but they were hidden from the scout, and that there were more infantry as well. Simply advancing with undefended catapults is extremely stupid, and thus the scout likely didn't see the rest of the army.

The facts reported are 'accurate'.

How do you know that?
 
...Your point?

Seriously, King, this isn't hard to understand. We are not saying that you definitely didn't see an alien spaceship (or whatever you want to call it. I don't care). We are saying that you have no proof whatsoever, not even the slightest smidgen of evidence, supporting your contention that it was an alien spaceship. It could have been, but we have no reason to believe it.

It's the same thing in the glowing fish scenario. Until the scientist comes back with his glowing fish, his anecdote is not evidence of that fish's existence. It is an indication that such a fish might exist, but not an actual indication of it. He has to find the fish to prove his anecdote valid.



Please, King, let the straw man go. He didn't do anything to you. Beating him with that pipe is just cruel.

The skeptical argument, in the above case, is not to dismiss the scout's report entirely. It is to send out more scouts for confirmation. While waiting for their return, it is safest to assume that there are cavalry units, but they were hidden from the scout, and that there were more infantry as well. Simply advancing with undefended catapults is extremely stupid, and thus the scout likely didn't see the rest of the army.



How do you know that?

I've never postulated "alien spaceship". I saw U.F.O.'s flying in coordination, performing unbelievable maneuvers.

The glowing fished have existed for ages. This is 'now' an indisputable fact. This man's report IS an accurate, and we called him crazy or delusional to the detriment of our search for truth.

By ignoring your scout's recommendation to send in a small fast moving assassin force, you've allowed the bombardment to begin, taking out your flank walls. You emptied your inner units, and now are being hit hard from your flanks by both heavy infantry and calvary units.

Your scout was right, he saw no units because they were somewhere else. Had you taken his word, your walls would still be standing, and all your units would be positioned to defend your flanks.

Skepticism cost you your town, congrats.
 
No. That is what you remember seeing. It is likely not what you actually saw.

I have seen aircraft fly, balloons launch, kites in flight, birds of every feather, and fireworks aplenty. I DON'T know what these were, but I know what they did.

For you to suggest that I had an isolated break with my senses, rather than witnessing the same thing hundreds of thousands of others have, shows a bias.

We can't ALL be having the same hallucination throughout time and around the world.

They exist.
 
I've never postulated "alien spaceship".

Which is why I affixed it with "or whatever you want to believe it was". I know you hate it when people refer to your intraterrestrials as aliens, but seriously man, it's just easier to type.

I saw U.F.O.'s flying in coordination, performing unbelievable maneuvers.

No. That is what you remember seeing. It is not necessarily what you actually saw.

The glowing fished have existed for ages. <snip>

By ignoring your scout's recommendation to send in a small fast moving assassin force, you've allowed the bombardment to begin, taking out your flank walls. You emptied your inner units, and now are being hit hard from your flanks by both heavy infantry and calvary units.

Your scout was right, he saw no units because they were somewhere else. Had you taken his word, your walls would still be standing, and all your units would be positioned to defend your flanks.

Skepticism cost you your town, congrats.

Way to fail, King.

I didn't "empty the inner units", as I specifically said that it was likely that there were other units approaching from somewhere that the scout couldn't see. The city was well-defended, and, assuming that I'm not totally incompetent, I had some kind of artillery as well with which to return fire on the enemy. Your entire scenario depends on a) lying about what I recommended and b) assuming that I have no resources anyway. It's idiotic, it's an unwinnable scenario, and it's irrelevant.

But I've already gone over why it's irrelevant five times already and you didn't get it any of those times, either, so I guess I shouldn't expect you to get it now.

I DON'T know what these were, but I know what they did.

No. You know what you remember them doing.

For you to suggest that I had an isolated break with my senses, rather than witnessing the same thing hundreds of thousands of others have, shows a bias.

Question, King: Do you even bother to read my posts?

Seriously. That is an actual question that I am asking you, and I'd like an answer. Do you read my posts? Because, after reading that, there are only three possible explanations as to why you posted it. One, you didn't read my post. Two, you are trolling. And three, you are functionally brain-dead and incapable of comprehending that I am not saying that you hallucinated the lights. I am not saying you had an "isolated break with your senses". I am saying that your memory is not infallible. What you saw is not necessarily what you remember seeing.
 
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Way to fail, King.

I didn't "empty the inner units", as I specifically said that it was likely that there were other units approaching from somewhere that the scout couldn't see. The city was well-defended, and, assuming that I'm not totally incompetent, I had some kind of artillery as well with which to return fire on the enemy. Your entire scenario depends on a) lying about what I recommended and b) assuming that I have no resources anyway. It's idiotic, it's an unwinnable scenario, and it's irrelevant.

But I've already gone over why it's irrelevant five times already and you didn't get it any of those times, either, so I guess I shouldn't expect you to get it now.



No. You know what you remember them doing.



Question, King: Do you even bother to read my posts?

Seriously. That is an actual question that I am asking you, and I'd like an answer. Do you read my posts? Because, after reading that, there are only three possible explanations as to why you posted it. One, you didn't read my post. Two, you are trolling. And three, you are functionally brain-dead and incapable of comprehending that I am not saying that you hallucinated the lights. I am not saying you had an "isolated break with your senses". I am saying that your memory is not infallible. What you saw is not necessarily what you remember seeing.

The scenario was about 'timely advice from a single unverified source'. I read up to "send out more scouts to verify", and hit the fail button. My bad, your walls fell, but you did have your forces there to defend. Your skepticism only cost you your walls.

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I DON'T know what I saw... How can I be wrong about that?

I saw something do some crazy stuff. You are suggesting what happen 'instead'...?

That I interpreted something normal 'as' having extraordinary ability...such as what?

What 'specifically' looks and acts like what I am describing? What craft or phenomena does this stuff?

Because 'I' haven't manage to find anything even close... Let me know if you do. Until then, I am sticking with "U.F.O."
 
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The scenario was about 'timely advice from a single unverified source'. I read up to "send out more scouts to verify", and hit the fail button. My bad, your walls fell, but you did have your forces there to defend. Your skepticism only cost you your walls.

And you didn't read that post either, did you? Assuming that I'm in a city with an army bigger than three guys, I've got some basic defenses, and can return fire on the catapults.

But, as I keep saying, this is very interesting, but irrelevant. It's an imagination war. Neither of us can win, because both of us can just keep imagining a new situation wherein we can claim victory. It's pointless and it's not important to the discussion at hand.

I DON'T know what I saw... How can I be wrong about that?

I saw something do some crazy stuff. You are suggesting what happen 'instead'...?

That I interpreted something normal 'as' having extraordinary ability...such as what?

What 'specifically' looks and acts like what I am describing? What craft or phenomena does this stuff?

Because 'I' haven't manage to find anything even close... Let me know if you do. Until then, I am sticking with "U.F.O."

I'll take that as a "no" on the "do you read my posts" thing, then.
 
Which is why I affixed it with "or whatever you want to believe it was". I know you hate it when people refer to your intraterrestrials as aliens, but seriously man, it's just easier to type.

...

So if it saves you time, AND demeans my actual stance then please...continue.

I don't know what it was. I only know my buddy and I witnessed something rather than nothing.
 
So if it saves you time, AND demeans my actual stance then please...continue.

All righty then.

I don't know what it was. I only know my buddy and I witnessed something rather than nothing.

And no one is disputing that. It's when you start banging on about intraterrestrial alien species that people give you funny looks.

Look, no one is disagreeing with you that you saw something. What we are saying is that what you remember about the event is likely different from what actually happened. Even if it isn't, even if your memory is somehow inhumanly perfect, you have no evidence whatsoever that your "non-man-made craft" idea is correct. You simply assume that it is because you can't find an explanation which perfectly matches your memory (which, again, is likely wrong). That's the argument from ignorance fallacy.
 
And you didn't read that post either, did you? Assuming that I'm in a city with an army bigger than three guys, I've got some basic defenses, and can return fire on the catapults.

But, as I keep saying, this is very interesting, but irrelevant. It's an imagination war. Neither of us can win, because both of us can just keep imagining a new situation wherein we can claim victory. It's pointless and it's not important to the discussion at hand.

I'll take that as a "no" on the "do you read my posts" thing, then.

No, you failed MY scenario. Skepticism does not operate well under timely demands. You sent out more scouts to 'confirm', what your first scout already knew- "There were catapults about to launch an attack, AND that a fast moving demolition assassins should be deployed immediately." You failed to act on that report allowing the assault to begin. *Your catapult attacks failed, as you can't see your targets, and they are moving. You can 'win' because you lost a turn by sending out a scout, and not using the resources he gathered.

As with the glowing fish scenario, skepticism turned an accurate report into 'crazy', simply because the report was an unknown fish species.

Ignoring the first report and demanding verification before taking action doesn't change the reality. In fact, at times it can be downright detrimental.
 
No, you failed MY scenario.

If you want to keep harping on that, fine.

Yes, I failed the scenario, but it wasn't because of skepticism. It is because of two things: I am not a general, and I misinterpreted what was said.

I thought that, in your original post, you said that the artillery were advancing, not preparing to fire. This meant that I thought I had time to confirm what was happening before the original assault. An undefended artillery battalion is a really bad move by the enemy; my initial thought was that it was a trap, so I ordered more scouts to see if it was clear or not.

If you want to claim victory over skepticism for my mistake, feel free, but it doesn't work.

Because, in the conditions that I wrongly understood it to be, my action was the correct one. In your scenario, which I only know understand, you're right. The correct - and skepticism-approved, by the way - course of action is to send out troops to destroy the artillery.

This isn't because it is absolutely confirmed that the artillery is undefended. It is because it has to be assumed that the artillery can be destroyed, whether or not it is undefended; if the artillery can't be taken out, the battle is lost.

I never questioned that the scout had seen artillery. My question was whether or not the artillery was actually undefended.

As with the glowing fish scenario, skepticism turned an accurate report into 'crazy'

No, it didn't. Why must you continue to strawman?

Skepticism only says that it is possible that the reporter was mistaken, and that, unless the fish is actually found, we still don't have proof of its existence. It doesn't say that the reporter is crazy. It is when the reporter spends fifty years and thousands of dollars looking for this fish and keeps returning empty-handed, yet still maintains that he was entirely and absolutely correct that it crosses the line into crazy.

Ignoring the first report and demanding verification before taking action doesn't change the reality. In fact, at times it can be downright detrimental.

Of course it can. But that's not what skepticism says to do. Skepticism doesn't say that we have to ignore the first report. It just says that we can't always take the first report as proof of something unless we have supporting evidence.

Take your artillery example. The scout comes back with a report of undefended artillery. Do we question that he saw artillery? No; that's a mundane claim. We're in a war. We know there are artillery units involved. We question whether or not the artillery is actually undefended, because that's an unusual scenario. Artillery is vulnerable, and therefore usually has some other unit assigned to it as a bodyguard. We can accept the scout's word that the artillery is there, but taking his word for it that the artillery is undefended is idiotic.
 
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I found a few versions online

King of the Americas said:
I suggest you mine this forum for in consistencies and then point out how my memory has changed...if it has.

2003:
i said it was true because i saw star-like objects(6), emitting a visible light, move with a constant velocity and make right-angle turns, and move in cordination with one another, and at one point disobey the laws of physics. And i have seen more than one other example of this event in a video recording, that couldn't be identified with any terresterial craft. And that this same 'theme' is present in every form of media throughout the ages...is what leads me to this 'finding'.

:)

since when is a light not an object? This was at night, there were a half a dozen of them, and they performed tasks that no terresterial pilot could. Moreover, their ability to disobey the laws of physics, as i understand them led me to this unearthly conclusion.
2005:
when i was like 24, a friend of mine and i were out in the country, near the red river, when we saw no less than 7 airborne 'crafts'...or things, that resembled star-like objects move in ways no terresterial-piloted vehicle could. They performed manuvers like making right angles turns with a constant velocity, and at one point 2 headed toward one another- became one - and then seperated again into two different things again...

...
That what i saw was 'probably' aliens is my stance, not that i could prove any such thing, but that i would like to rely on occam's razor...

The way i see it, there could be any number of theories that would explain what i saw. But that the 3 most likely are these: 1.) both of us could have imagines the whole thing. 2.) what we saw was a super secret terresterial craft, an uav of some sorts capabled of changing its physical form, or 3.) that there is 'some' truth behind the myths and stories written about a "god" who exists in the heavens.

I would like to boldly say that of these the first is the more unlikely, given that for 2 seperate unrelated people, uninduced by drugs or alcohol, to have the exact same hallucination would be odd, indeed.

So, what i saw was either man-made or it wasn't. Within the event i witnessed, these craft did several astounding things, some feats i have heard of and seen, while others i had not. Initially, the star-like objects moved into position, and merely 'held' their position. This was not a really big deal, because i know the helicopters can do virtually the same manuver (except that these craft moved silently). Their next feat did however raise my eyebrow, as well as my friend's. They moved, and 'seeming' without slowing down, turned at a right angle or greater. This was odd, in that i had 'heard' of some new military craft utilizing 'directional exhaust', but that the g-forces put upon a pilot's body would limit how fast turns could be accomplished. Still, a uav with the right engineering make-up might be able to simlate such feats, given the right conditions. But why would the government be showing off these things to a couple of country bumpkins??? Believe it or not, that question actually went through my mind at one point...then two of them headed for each other at a greater speed than either had previously moved. Then they did something i had never seen or heard of aircraft doing, while airborne, they became one.

Now, this was odd, moreso than anything i could have expected to see in the sky. Moreover, their joining was marked by a multiplied size. Like when you take 2 small clay balls and join them together, you expect to get 1 medium size ball. Or a ball twice the volume of one of the balls. Well, the appearance of the larger entity was "4 times" as large as the single units. So, i look to my friend and ask, "did you see those two head toward one another...?"

and he responded before i could finish, "...and join up to make a really big version of themselves.", yes, i did.

Then we looked back up at it and it seperated again into it smaller parts.
2008:
my friend and i were scouting out a place to go camping right near the bank of the red river near gainesville texas, when i saw an unusual cloud formation/shape in the sky due north of our position. I saw it was 'unusual' because it was oddly semetrical. It looked cigar shaped, with very tapered ends. Stuff is almost never perfectly semetrical in nature, so i got a thought in my head, to use this unusual shape to screw with my friend.

I said, "hey jon, look at that ufo, man!" "that just a cloud, man...", he rebuked. "no, look how perfectly semetrical it is. That not just a cloud, it is something else!", and then i began flashing my headlights with high beam on, at it. After my second series of flashings, the right side of the cloud-looking object "shrank", and instead of a tappered edge, it seemed to "square off", like someone had used a cigar cutter on the end.

My friend and i just sat there in stunned silence. All this happened in about 2-3 minutes, at around 7:45-8:00 during the early to mid-summer. It was light enough to still see a potential camping site, but the sun was retreating quickly and stars were just beginning to appear.

Once the cigar shaped 'cloud-ufo' squared itself, and the initial shock wore off, i began flashing my lights again, in an attempt to get a reaction...which my friend was totally against.

The result of my flashing was for a 'star-like' object to appear at the squared edge of the cigar. Then the object took off in a straight line and then held its position, only to have another similiar object emerge from the cigar shape, which also took to a position and stopped. This continued to happed untill there were 7 such objects. Then they started to move in concert with one another. The first one to move made an "l" shaped flight pattern, and stopped. Then another made a "z" shaped flight path, then two others moved toward one another, joined together, and increased their "size" by 4 fold. If you take 2 pieces fo clay and mash them into one ball the size of the ball doesn't increase dramatically. These 2 objects, after joining together, did.

So, to answer your question, i saw both- something that had "shape", and mere "lights".(*i have told this tale more than once, here. I am sure you could read my initial account somewhere here.)



there was nothing 'obvious', about what we saw that evening, except that it was obvious that i had never seen anything like this before.

the 'objects' i saw were brightly lite, and 'undulating' in colors of red, white, and blue. They 'performed' ariel feats unattainable by human pilots. Our planes 'bank' as they turn. They 'arch' through the sky, even the directional exhaust of the f-22 raptor can't achieve the "right-angle turns" these craft managed repeatedly.
2009:
the area known as the bottom is huge, the northern edge of cooke countyis a rock bluff, that forms a ridge. There is a gravel road that turns west from atop the bluff, and travels down and along side to 75 yards away from the red river itself, and then goes back up and out onto the higher bluff. The difference in elevation probable isn't over a hundred feet.

The sky was clear, except for this huge gray 'semetrical' saucer looking cloud. I decided to try to screw with my friend telling him, "hey man look at that ufo! Look at how perfectly semetrical that cloud is. It's a ufo!" and i started flashing my headlights at it and honking.

To which it 'responded'...

...by sucking in and squaring off it's eastern edge...

...that's when the star-like objects emerged, one after the other from the squared off edge, each one zooming off to a fixed position, until there were 7 in total. Then they started to move, each move being more complex or difficult, right angle turns while maintaining a consistant speed. They didn't 'bank' and turn in the manner i am familiar with. The last thing they did was the first one that emerged and the last one headed toward each other, 'combine', and result in a 4-fold larger verson of itself (this really blew my mind, because i didn't expect something that big to result. When you put two clay balls together, you don't get something that looks 'twice' as big as the two separate entities. These two things...), i looked over at my friend and asked "did you just see two of them head toward each other...", and he interupted "...combine and make a big ass version, and then split apart again?" "yeah.", i responded.

The area has a ranch house ever square mile or 2. It's texas, there's lots of space.

There's an tiny town called burneyville about 3 miles north northwest, and they have a small airstrip.

Consistencies include "star-like objects" (in the night sky!), them appearing to emerge from the edge of the symmetrical cloud, right-angle turns and "light," plus the 2 lights converging to appear to be one bigger light.

Inconsistencies include "light" evolving to oscillating/undulating red / white / blue, 6 objects becoming "no less than 7," "cigar" shaped vs. "saucer" shaped (this is probably a perspective thing, like the Rramjet blimp sighting).

The red / blue thing could be a recent addition, or it could be that he's conflating it with this sighting of light blue "thunderless lightning"? In any case, the level of detail varies, but that's to be expected. KotA, please feel free to clarify.

King of the Americas, I'd still be interested in seeing your original version. We might all learn something from it.
 
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Consistencies include "star-like objects" (in the night sky!), them appearing to emerge from the edge of the symmetrical cloud, right-angle turns and "light," plus the 2 lights converging to appear to be one bigger light.

Inconsistencies include "light" evolving to oscillating/undulating red / white / blue, 6 objects becoming "no less than 7," "cigar" shaped vs. "saucer" shaped (this is probably a perspective thing, like the Rramjet blimp sighting).

The red / blue thing could be a recent addition, or it could be that he's conflating it with this sighting of light blue "thunderless lightning"? In any case, the level of detail varies, but that's to be expected. KotA, please feel free to clarify.

King of the Americas, I'd still be interested in seeing your original version. We might all learn something from it.


Thanks, carlitos, for demonstrating that this particular case of an alleged UFO/alien sighting was just as bogus and unsupportable as any. The witness has multiple versions of the tale, and none can be given any more credence than another. Any judge or lawyer would toss this witness out on his keister. This sighting has been busted sure as spit.
 

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