Merged Teabagger Candidate Rich Iott is into Nazi Cosplay

[Puppycow]

This shows every semblance of being exactly the sort of smear campaign that the candidate in question claims it to be. Of particular note is that there is actually no substantion - no quotations, stories, descriptions of anti-Semitic ideas or behavior on the part of Mr. Iott. The major criticism in this thread of the Wikings is that...they don't criticize Nazi Germany strongly enough?

Contrary to popular belief, human beings (and groups or institutions composed thereof) are complex enough to have both admirable and abominable traits at the same time. Noting or discussing the former does not equate to condoning the latter.

Have any untrue claims been made about Mr. Iott?

 

[Pardalis]

Australian can't use search function

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6430748&postcount=103

 

[Shadowdweller]

What happens when you note and discuss the former and brush the latter under the rug?

Yeah, where's that substantiation again? Even assuming the hypothetical case that there is some: You ever hear of a Roman Legion reenactment group that gave more than a passing reference, if that, to slavery?

Obviously, anyone who does not criticize the historical pariah of the day with every other sentence must tacitly support (or deny the existence of) all their crimes. I don't suppose it has occurred to many of you that any distancing from Nazi atrocities might actually be an attempt to avoid precisely this sort of idiocy? Consider the implications for a reenactment group that did not: "Roman legion / Confederate reenactment group X glorifies slavery." "GOP candidate pretends to slaughter Jews for fun."

 

[Unabogie]

Yeah, where's that substantiation again? Even assuming the hypothetical case that there is some: You ever hear of a Roman Legion reenactment group that gave more than a passing reference, if that, to slavery?

Obviously, anyone who does not criticize the historical pariah of the day with every other sentence must tacitly support (or deny the existence of) all their crimes. I don't suppose it has occurred to many of you that any distancing from Nazi atrocities might actually be an attempt to avoid precisely this sort of idiocy? Consider the implications for a reenactment group that did not: "Roman legion / Confederate reenactment group X glorifies slavery." "GOP candidate pretends to slaughter Jews for fun."

So the Waffen SS were only fighting for a better tomorrow?

 

[quixotecoyote]

Yeah, where's that substantiation again?

You appear to be having a wonderful conversation with yourself. If you'd care to come out and join us, that would be nice too.

Even assuming the hypothetical case that there is some: You ever hear of a Roman Legion reenactment group that gave more than a passing reference, if that, to slavery?

You realize that Roman Legion renactment groups are almost all LARPing SCA types, not living history types, right? And the few I've found that are more historical based don't hide the dark side of Roman civilization. So that example turns around and bites you on the ass.

Obviously, anyone who does not criticize the historical pariah of the day

You realize you just refered to the Nazis as the "historical pariah of the day," correct? Was that an unintentional minimization or are you here to play along with Giwer and MaGZ?

 

[Unabogie]

You realize you just refered to the Nazis as the "historical pariah of the day," correct?

Yeah, funny how if you talk with some people long enough, stuff like that inevitably slips out.

 

[Pardalis]

Wow, board members descending into character assassination...

Classy.

 

[quixotecoyote]

Wow, board members descending into character assassination...

Classy.

As much as I disagree with you on other issues, I'm pretty sure you're on board with Nazism not being handwaved away as "the historical pariah of the day."

 

[Pardalis]

As much as I disagree with you on other issues, I'm pretty sure you're on board with Nazism not being handwaved away as "the historical pariah of the day."

I don't think Shadowdweller is apoligizing for Nazism. Try reading his post if you have the time.

Some people on this board called the 9/11 attacks "blowback", as if to diminish the atrocity of the event and the fanaticism of Al Qaeda. Should we accuse them of being Al Qaeda supporters?

 

[quixotecoyote]

I don't think Shadowdweller is apoligizing for Nazism. Try reading his post if you have the time.

I did. That's how I know what he said. Funny how that works.

Some people on this board called the 9/11 attacks "blowback", as if to diminish the atrocity of the event and the fanaticism of Al Qaeda. Should we accuse them of being Al Qaeda supporters?

In some cases, yes. See Without Rights or JihadJane, for example. In other cases, its a neutral description of terrorists attacking the US for perceived ills, imagined or not.

We can tell whether it's actually dismissive or a neutral statement of political reality by the context.

For example, if someone called Al Quaeda the "villian of the day" in a mocking manner and then gave the Romans in same category as a similar example, I'd suggest they were in the frothing loony category. And I bet we can find someone who did just that with the Nazis if we try to read his posts.

 

[Pardalis]

We can tell whether it's actually dismissive or a neutral statement of political reality by the context.

So one can't do the latter about the Nazis? It can only apply to Islamic terrorists?

 

[quixotecoyote]

So one can't do the latter about the Nazis? It can only apply to Islamic terrorists?

Indeed we can. In fact, I even provided helpful hints to assist you in doing so.

 

[Pardalis]

I just think it's disingenuous of you to imply things in his post that he hasn't said.

I agree with him that it's ridiculous to accuse someone playing a Nazi in a reenactment game of being sympathetic to their ideology or apologize for their crimes.

It's just a game, a couple of middle aged men dressing up as soldiers on weekends. Geez.

 

[Unabogie]

More quotes from Iott about the Nazis.

"I don't know that I would put that label on them. They were doing what they thought was right for their country. And they were going out and fighting what they thought was a bigger, you know, a bigger evil."

Cooper also asked about the reenators' website, which he said describes members of the Wiking unit as "valiant men." He asked Iott if he believed these were "valiant men."


"I think that they thought they were fighting for their homeland," Iott said. When pressed further, he replied: "I don't think we can sit here and judge that today. We weren't there the time they made those decisions."

Pardalis, you agree that we can't sit here and judge the Waffen SS because we weren't there at the time?

 

[quixotecoyote]

I just think it's disingenuous of you to imply things in his post that he hasn't said.

Well if I ever do that, I'll agree with you.

I agree with him that it's ridiculous to accuse someone playing a Nazi in a reenactment game of being sympathetic to their ideology or apologize for their crimes.

And if I see someone doing that, instead of being part of a living history group that honors the people being represented, talks over and over about how brave they are, describes them as idealists who fight for their version of a better tomorrow, and doesn't even mention the war crimes they committed, I'll agree with you then, too.

 

[Pardalis]

So when kids play cowboys and indians, the kids playing the cowboys are apologizing for the American crimes against the natives?

 

[quixotecoyote]

So when kids play cowboys and indians, the kids playing the cowboys are apologizing for the American crimes against the natives?

Are the kids playing the cowboys part of a living history group that honors that particular group of people being represented, talks over and over about how brave they are, describes them as idealists who fight for their version of a better tomorrow, and doesn't even mention the war crimes they committed?

Or are they just playing a game with no thought to historical context, no devotion to a particular group of cowboys that beat and shot 60 indian prisoners, and no attempts to praise or promote them?

It's one thing to play the Nazis in a game. It's another thing to make the Nazis the subject of your historical realism project, heap praise on them, and ignore the bad parts.

 

[Pardalis]

Are the kids playing the cowboys part of a living history group that honors that particular group of people being represented, talks over and over about how brave they are, describes them as idealists who fight for their version of a better tomorrow, and doesn't even mention the war crimes they committed?

Maybe they are romanticizing the period, or are just misinformed or misguided, but overall I think you're making too much of it. I think they're just a bunch of overgrown kids playing soldiers on weekends.

I think the real reason why there is so much fuss about it is that he's a Tea Partier, and those are people's favorite target at the moment.

 

[quixotecoyote]

Maybe they are romanticizing the period, or are just misinformed or misguided, but overall I think you're making too much of it. I think they're just a bunch of overgrown kids playing soldiers on weekends.

Except that's not all they're doing. If you read their website, they aren't just weekend LARPers. They take the historical aspect seriously.

I think the real reason why there is so much fuss about it is that he's a Tea Partier, and those are people's favorite target at the moment.

Or it could be that he's part of a group that glorifies Nazis and ignores their dark side. I'd expect just as much crap to get dumped on a democrat that was part of a group that dressed up as Soviet Kalinin District NKVD officers and heaped praise on them for bravely fighting for the freedom of the Soviet motherland while ignoring the Katyn massacre.

eta: Oh, and Unaboogie's lastest post probably merits a response too, due to the wonderful moral relativism Iott whips out.

 

[caniswalensis]

So the Waffen SS were only fighting for a better tomorrow?

The Wiking website never said that. This is a perfect example of people quote mining the text on the website and then twisting it around to bolster their points.

They do not say that the waffen ss forces were fighting for a better tomorrow. They do specifically say that the underlying nature of the movement was "quite twisted in some cases."

What the portion of the paragraph in question is saying is that the foriegn volounteers fought valiantly and made great sacrifices fighting under a facist regieme that wrongly led them to believe thier cause was just. You may not agree with that, but that is the intent. It is not saying that all soldiers in the ss were worthy of admiration, but rather that some of them, these foriegn volounteers in particular went out with the intent of doing good. ("Good", in this case being to defeat communisim.) It makes no statement as to wether or not their cause was just.

I would say they did not, based on the general comportment of the ss, and this unit in particular.

When it comes down to it, this is a little blurb on an amateur website made by amateur historian. It is not meant as an in-depth analysis of the morality of the SS. It is not meant to be a definitive statement of their group's position on nazis. It is meant to give a bit of history of the foriegn volounteer units, one of which these recreators are portraying.
Note at the top of the page, it says "History OF THE 5.SS WIKING Division & Other Foreign Volunteers of the German Armed Forces." It would seem the focus of the page is intended to be as much or more on the foriegn volounteers than the ss or even the wiking division itself.

Is it case of soft peddling WWII germany to the masses? Maybe. Were I in their place, I would not have phase things like this. Ipersonally would not try to make any sort of statements that mitigate the SS soldiers responsability for war crimes they committed, or that try to put a good face on my "Charactor." It's just too hard a sell to the average person.

While the wiking division was long thought to be one of a few ss units that did not commit any attrocities, it has been discovered of late that is not the case. They took part in at least three round-ups/massacres of jews at various times during their service. However some of these atrocities were reported from within the unit itself, indicating that some of the wiking personnell dissaproved of such tactics. I am not an expert on WWII german unit strenghs, but I believe a division was in excess of 10,000 men. While it is clear that elements of wiking participated in war crimes, It does not seem to necessarily follow that all of them did. It is concievable that some of these finns or norweigions did not commit any attrocities.

I don't know. Can you guys concieve of a basically moral person that perhaps gets caught up in anti-communist propaganda, joins a nation's armed forces, and fights valiantly for the percieved goal of liberating his country? Remember that some he would not have the benefit of our hindsight. Some of those eastern european countries had suffered brutal abuses by the communists and as unlikely as it sounds, looked on the nazis as liberators. What might be such a person's reactions if he witnessed his fellows commiting war crimes? What sort of person is he if he looks the other way? What if he knows that there will be reprisals against him if he makes waves? Is fear of being "fragged" enough to justify silence? It is an interesting scenario to me. I am not sure that I can say what I would do in that situation.

Anyway, I do not mean to say that we should sympathize with or pity nazis or anyone that perpetrates war crimes. Obviously the nazi party and their ss troops were as bad as anything we are likely to see.

This is an interesting issue, and I am enjoying discussing it. It is funny how something as clearly bad on the surface as dressing in a nazi uniform (or being a soldier in a nazi unit) can become less black & white when you start to turn it over.



Here is the whole paragraph again:

"European Volunteers,
Join to Fight Bolshevism!" Germany headed a stong movement in Europe to actively campaign (politically and through warfare) against the ideals of Bolshevist Communism. This culminated in 1941, when the German armed forces were pitted against the very home of Bolshevism, Soviet Russia. Nazi Germany had no problem in recruiting the multitudes of volunteers willing to lay down their lives to ensure a "New and Free Europe", free of the threat of Communism. National Socialism was seen by many in Holland, Denmark, Norway, Finland, and other eastern European and Balkan countries as the protector of personal freedom and their very way of life, despite the true underlying totalitarian (and quite twisted, in most cases) nature of the movement. Regardless, thousands upon thousands of valiant men died defending their respective countries in the name of a better tomorrow. No matter how unsavory the Nazi government was, the front-line soldiers of the Waffen-SS (in particular the foreign volunteers) gave their lives for their loved ones and a basic desire to be free.