Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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You're joking, right? You didn't just say that? LMAO, you have got to be kidding. That's what you're resorting to now Chris? And Im sure the mods will have no problem with that little comment, whereas anyone who disagrees with the pack gets suspended left and right...

Im sure what Loverofzion mean to say, is that there have been a lot of high profile cases in the states where white women accuse minorities for crimes they commited or crimes that never happened. Examples:

Casey Anthony accusing hispanic nanny of killing her daughter
Susan Smith accusing black man of killing her children
Crazy lady (forgot her name, and really dont care) who accused an Obama supporter of carving a backwards B on her face...

Normally I'de agree with you. But just 19mins before that post, he was talking about her laughingly holding a machine gun at a Holocaust museum. I mean if your gonna imply she hates jews, and then talk about knox accusing a black man, then mention how white women have a long ugly history of accusing black men. What interpretation are you expecting someone to get?
He clearly wants us to agree that Knox is a jew hating racist, that accuses black men of rape and murder based on the color of their skin.


She was photographed in the Holocaust museum with her laughinglyl holding a machine gun (okay you can't convict anyone for their lack of sensitivity and compassion) with a very large bag easily able to contain a kitchen knife.so there really is nothing funny about your exaggeration; more fodder for the nonsense pile again.
Well then it must be pure coincidence that Amanda falsely accused Patrick of the assault and murder, the ONLY OTHER black person she knew in Perugia? (AK:"He's bad...he's bad...")

There is sadly a long ugly history in the U.S. of white women falsely accusing black men of sexual, violent crimes.
 
They were testified to in court. Are you sure about their falsehood?

They were testified to in court by the people who worked at the lab. The lab had no independent auditing, ISO quality certification, or contamination log. The judges chose to accept the lab workers' verbal statements that their lab had never once before had any contamination incidents - a state of affairs that is almost unheard of in properly audited labs. I think that the judges were wrong to uncritically accept the lab workers' word on this issue, without written and independent verification. I believe this may be brought up in the appeal.
 
Someone posted this quote earlier,
Quote:
Nov 16 2007
Last night I saw on television that the knife that I had at home (the one from the kitchen) has traces of Meredith and Amanda (latent) ... my heart jumped in my throat and I was in total panic because I thought that Amanda had killed Meredith or had helped someone in the enterprise. But today I saw Tiziano who calmed me down: he told me that the knife could not have been the murder weapon, according to the legal doctor, and has nothing to do with anything as Amanda could take it and and carry it from my house to her house because the girls didn't have knife so, they are making a smokescreen for nothing ... I live in a reality show nightmare, the 'nightmare reality show'. Unbelievable!


I guess Raffaele didn't see the picture of the at least a dozen knives that were at the girl's flat.

Originally Posted by RoseMontague
This is amusing loverofzion. Maybe you missed my post about the prosecution footprint expert working from photographs without even looking at the actual evidence.

I thought it was the defense expert who worked from the police photographs.
 
Normally I'de agree with you. But just 19mins before that post, he was talking about her laughingly holding a machine gun at a Holocaust museum. I mean if your gonna imply she hates jews, and then talk about knox accusing a black man, then mention how white women have a long ugly history of accusing black men. What interpretation are you expecting someone to get?
He clearly wants us to agree that Knox is a jew hating racist, that accuses black men of rape and murder based on the color of their skin.

:)

Really - just look at what some people are convincing themselves of, on the basis of .... what?

The infamous "holocaust museum photograph"? An unsourced quote from an un-named (as far as I know) individual about the Germans and you-know-who?

It says MUCH more about them than about AK.

As with the assertion by another guilter that Amanda "lies with ease and familiarity", you would have thought that they would want to hear from someone, ANYONE who knew or was acquauinted with her, giving the slightest indication that she is such a person before maligning her in this way.
 
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manipulated

Does it really make a difference? The point was the picture and the posting she made. I dont think it makes much of a difference whether it was in an actual Holocaust museum or a regular museum and she was in an exhibit about the Holocaust.

Having said that, I could really care less about her posting. I dont think its that relevant personally, although I dont think bringing it up is akin to "race baiting".

Where did you get that idea that she was in an exhibit about the Holocaust? Have you seen the photo at all? What kind of Holocaust theme do you see there?
You say you don't care about it yet you didn't miss a chance to spread yet another bit of misinformation. Let me be clear, I don't blame you for it, because I think you've fallen prey to manipulation that taints this case from the very beginning. No smileys this time.
Spreading malicious rumors, lies and character assassination were important for preparing the ground before the trial. Looks like sticking AK with a racist etiquette was a part of it.
 
Where did you get that idea that she was in an exhibit about the Holocaust? Have you seen the photo at all? What kind of Holocaust theme do you see there?
You say you don't care about it yet you didn't miss a chance to spread yet another bit of misinformation. Let me be clear, I don't blame you for it, because I think you've fallen prey to manipulation that taints this case from the very beginning. No smileys this time.
Spreading malicious rumors, lies and character assassination were important for preparing the ground before the trial. Looks like sticking AK with a racist etiquette was a part of it.

I assumed based on the fact Amanda Knox used the word Nazi. Again, if my assumption was wrong, I apologize. But dont blame it on those "evil Amanda Knox haters" who manipulate the public, judges, court, etc.!
 
Normally I'de agree with you. But just 19mins before that post, he was talking about her laughingly holding a machine gun at a Holocaust museum. I mean if your gonna imply she hates jews, and then talk about knox accusing a black man, then mention how white women have a long ugly history of accusing black men. What interpretation are you expecting someone to get?
He clearly wants us to agree that Knox is a jew hating racist, that accuses black men of rape and murder based on the color of their skin.

Although I dont agree with you, that assertion makes more sense than saying he/she hates white women. Maybe he/she just hates Amanda Knox. And if they do hate her, it's not because she is beautiful, its not because she is American, it is because she is a murderer (as far as we're concerned).
 
machine gun from WWI

LondonJohn,

A friend of mine looked at the photo of Amanda and the machine gun. He said it was a WWI vintage, water-cooled and very heavy (built for trench warfare). I cannot think of a reason why a holocaust museum would have such a display. Therefore, the photo in question is most likely from a different sort of museum. I do not know which museum it is, however.
 
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simple questions that deserve clear answers

I am. Are we not talking about the case? Or is there now a new rule where I have to only discuss what you feel like discussing at any given moment? I don't think so



Thanks for your obvious concern, I'll take my chances and speak my mind. If that breaks the rules, so be it.

Solange305,

I offered the view that the knife should have been opened to look for blood. loverofzion implied (utterly without support) that there is no good reason to do so. I gave Colonel Garofano the credit for bringing this to my attention, even though I do not agree with everything he has written about the case.

Do you think that the knife should have been opened up, and if not, why not? Why do you think that the police failed to do so?
 
LondonJohn,

A friend of mine looked at the photo of Amanda and the machine gun. He said it was a WWI vintage, water-cooled and very heavy (built for trench warfare). I cannot think of a reason why a holocaust museum would have such a display. Therefore, the photo in question is most likely from a different sort of museum. I do not know which museum it is, however.

It is indeed an early 20th century model with a water-cooled barrel. It may well be a Vickers gun, which had a very similar barrel casing, and which was used extensively in WWI.
 
Do you think that the knife should have been opened up, and if not, why not? Why do you think that the police failed to do so?

I have no clue, sorry. I dont know why they didnt open the knife up. I dont claim to know all the answers, far from it. My stance is that Amanda and Raffaele were found guilty in the first trial, and sentenced to prison time. Although I understand the process is different there, and the appeals still need to happen for the convictions to stick or whatever, I am not going to sit here and question the experts and professionals who came to the conclusion that they were guilty. You guys have not convinced me yet that I have any reason to doubt the verdict. If that changes, I will be the first to let you know.
 
I have no clue, sorry. I dont know why they didnt open the knife up. I dont claim to know all the answers, far from it. My stance is that Amanda and Raffaele were found guilty in the first trial, and sentenced to prison time. Although I understand the process is different there, and the appeals still need to happen for the convictions to stick or whatever, I am not going to sit here and question the experts and professionals who came to the conclusion that they were guilty. You guys have not convinced me yet that I have any reason to doubt the verdict. If that changes, I will be the first to let you know.

It might be instructive if you could tell us what kind of opinions you've been posting on other Kercher-related forums recently? I'm sure we'd all be genuinely interested to hear your civil and unbiased views.

There are some nice copyrighted photos on another forum right now, with which I think you are familiar. Interestingly, one of them shows the door to the boys' house below the girls' house - it clearly shows that there is a hinged metal grill which protects the door, and which would most likely have been locked in place on a long weekend when all the boys were away.

Also, can you tell us why it would have been impossible to climb up to Filomena's window sill (from the grate of the window below) wearing an overcoat and gloves, and why there is not enough room on half the total width of the window sill to crouch or sit? Thanks!
 
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It might be instructive if you could tell us what kind of opinions you've been posting on other Kercher-related forums recently? I'm sure we'd all be genuinely interested to hear your civil and unbiased views.

Why would i do that? The only other place I post you obviously have read on a regular basis. No need to waste my time.

I'm just glad there's at least this one place on the web where the case can be discussed civilly.

Cool, if you could point me to where that is, that would be awesome! Thanks...
 
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There are some nice copyrighted photos on another forum right now, with which I think you are familiar. Interestingly, one of them shows the door to the boys' house below the girls' house - it clearly shows that there is a hinged metal grill which protects the door, and which would most likely have been locked in place on a long weekend when all the boys were away.

I dont understand, what is your question?

and why there is not enough room on half the total width of the window sill to crouch or sit?

The fact that you even asked that question, is astounding. Have you seen how narrow that window is? I personally am not saying anything is possible or impossible, but I have seen a lot of good points made as to why it seems unlikely that Rudy would have gone in through that window. Astoundingly, judges and jurors seemed to agree with me

If PMF were to have a similar stated purpose, asking people not to post dissenting views, I think they would be justified in banning anyone who refused to accept that. But they can't do that; it would make the bias a bit too explicit. Like halides and Rose (and others), I was asked to stop posting too, despite not violating any forum rules.

I wasnt posting back then, but I will take your word for it. Im sorry that happened.
 
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I dont understand, what is your question?

The implied question is: how easily could anyone have broken into the boys' house, if all the windows had iron grates and the door had a locked iron grill? If someone were casing the property as a whole, the logical way to attempt entry (in the absence of a strong pair of bolt cutters or a hacksaw + lots of time) would be via the un-grilled widows of the upper storey.

The fact that you even asked that question, is astounding. Have you seen how narrow that window is? I personally am not saying anything is possible or impossible, but I have seen a lot of good points made as to why it seems unlikely that Rudy would have gone in through that window. Astoundingly, judges and jurors seemed to agree with me

Umm, Judge Micheli certainly didn't agree with you. But, that aside, I have seen how narrow that window is. The left half of the windowsill is about 0.5m in width by 0.25m in depth. More than enough space to sit facing outwards with legs dangling down towards the ground, or to crouch facing inwards. Why is my asking of that question astounding? And would it make a difference whether or not a coat and/or gloves were worn by the intruder?
 
Huh?
Where exactly do you find the conclusions to diverge with the facts in the report??

The conclusion of the Massei report starts on Page 388.
The conclusion of the Massei report does not, many times, draw on the facts that preceded it.

"Murder in Italy" by Candace Dempsey highlights the discrepancies as well. Most of the facts she discusses are in the Massei Translation. Except for the conclusion and the opinions, she sticks to the facts most of which are found in the Massei Translation.

My own conclusions (opinions) are:

The interrogation by the police was incompetent (brainwashing techniques distort the results)

The TOD was incompetent (the temperature was taken too late)

The Lab work was incompetent (too little DNA in a lab that was not super clean)

The evidence gathering was incompetent (the shoed footprint was wrongly attributed, the bra clasp found too late)

The newspaper reporting was incompetent at times.

Many translations were incompetent at times.

AK and RS were deceived at times.

The prosecutor was being investigated.

The disk drives were destroyed (not one, but two)

More evidence was bungled than was not (Was ALL the evidence bungled?)
 
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halides1 said:
Do you have a citation, and can you be very specific about the wounds which you feel are or are not compatible?

There is one wound not compatible with the kitchen knife, it is the wound on the right side of the kneck. This wound is 4 cm deep and a maximum of 12-15 millimetres wide (different measurements given by examiners).
I thought this informaton was universally acquired (with the exception of Steve Moore). There is an entire chapter dedicated to the wounds in the courts' report.

approximately 15 mm for dr. Lalli:
p. 116 " .. 1 centimetro e mezzo con una profondità di 4 centimetri .. "

approx. between 10 and 12 mm for dr. Torre
p. 142 " ... Prendeva quindi in considerazione il coltello reperto 36: trattavasi di coltello con lama lunga circa cm. 17,5; un dorso che è spesso circa 1- 1,5 millimetri e un' altezza che nel punto massimo è di 3 centimetri. Escludeva la compatibilità di tale coltello con la ferita da ultimo menzionata per le dimensioni della stessa, lunga un centimetro o anche un centimetro e 2 e un tramite di 4 centimetri."
 
Sorry about the characters that didn't copy correctly from pdf. Go to the Massie translation to fill in the details. The gist is that the knife was 8cm long and slammed into the neck with considerable force. The kitchen knife would have gone through the neck.

page 156-157 of Massie translation:

At the hearing on September 25, 2009, Dr. Patumi, a consultant for the defence of
Amanda Knox, was examined. He recalled that the victim presented three wounds
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relation to the two on the left side of the neck, the more cranial one, i.e., the one
positioned higher, was surely the more important one; that one, together with other
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long, with a cut 8 cm deep. The superior rim, the upper margin, of this wound
presented two accessory incisions, signifying that, certainly, the victim was not
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the lower cutaneous rim of the wound, which is an area we can define as excoriated
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face of the handle of the grip of the knife, of the cutting implement that was
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the knife came into close contact, in strict contiguity with the skin, pushing it [the
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88). Consequently, the confiscated knife, Exhibit 36, with a blade length of a good
17cm, could not have caused a cut of 8cm. The final argument supporting its
incompatibility was constituted by the repetition of blows and their violence,
deducible from the fact that a bone was directly pierced that, although not having
the consistency of a femur, does possess a boney component that renders it resistant
[to the knife]. He thus argued that there was great violence, which had to lead to
excluding the possibility that the blows were not thrust into the full length of the
blade, as if the attacker [the perso��������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������

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(page 89).
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head and thus her neck from the cutting implement, which could have reduced the
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mandibular region were subjected to a strong grasping action: the victim presented
the characteristic signs of a hand whi����������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������
and, moreover, observed the consultant, she did not have much chance of distancing
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89).
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Interestingly, there doesn't appear to be a single Holocaust museum in Austria. There's a Holocaust memorial at the former Mauthausen concentration camp, with a small visitors' centre, but I suspect the museum in question may actually have been the Austrian War Museum. I might be wrong in that of course, but on the other hand it certainly seems to have suited some people's agendas for it to have been a Holocaust museum - and it's an idea which seems to have gained a lot of traction as a result.


The museum mole was whacked such a long time ago that some people are unaware of it, which provides the perfect opportunity for others to sneak it back into the discussion.

It is not a Holocaust museum; it may be the Austrian War Museum (I forget, myself). Someone on Candace Dempsey's blog linked to a travel writer's blog in which the travel writer published a picture of herself at the same gun. When weapons are put in an open display like that, it invites people to experience them.

Many people in Seattle have had their pictures taken atop a huge deck gun from the USS Colorado, which sits outside the Museum of History and Industry. http://www.usscolorado.org/images/gun-mohai.jpg That doesn't make us all war mongers.

When Amanda wrote "my inner Nazi" or whatever it was, she was being ironic. Pretty common in that age group.
 
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