Jewish dance group stoned in Hanover, Germany

[Roadtoad]

These folks seem to be having fun though.

http://www.letmypeoplego.com/

Oy!

 

[Beerina]

It has been 80 years since krystal nacht and 65 years since the holocaust. I don't advocate forgetting it, but at some point one has to recognize that NONE of the current german had to do anything with it, and tehrefore it is not "worst" to have people throw stone at jew in germany than it would be in , say , new york. There are idiot everywhere. One can't control population so far as to prevent such idiot to act on stupid idea, one can only punish afterward. I would like to see people get a bit more rational and stop climb up on their high horse because it involve germany. If this was treated as a normal incident, it would not empower those retard as much as when it makes the news.

Umm. One would think Germany would be extra careful educating its young. Not sloppy about it.



See, the "Hate Israel" crap so popular among the so-called intelligentsia of Europe (and the US) actually does have implications beyond talking heads on shows. Surprise!

 

[GrouchoMarxist]

Ahh, the vicissitudes of computer translation. (I'm darned impressed about it working at all. It's sci-fi from my youth come to life. )

The "BabelFish" plug-in for Firefox that I was boosting earlier successfully managed to translate "Steinwürfe" as "stone-throwing". I was not pleased with this at the time because it had been defined as "brick" in the same post.

My thanks also to our German speaking posters for the correction. It made me feel much better about my geeky, sci-fi toy.

Just before that it had told me that "Kieselsteine" translated as "shingle", which misses "pebble" by a long shot unless you are enough of a geologist or linguist to know the relationship implied by such arcane usages as "shingle beach" (a beach composed of pebbles instead of sand.) As a stand-alone, without context, that isn't very helpful, but then words are tricky like that even within the same language.

"Mauersteine" and "Ziegelstein(e)" both managed to come back as "brick". Which of course made me wonder what subtle distinctions might be implied by the two obviously different terms. (Brand names?)

This translation thing certainly has some pitfalls, but I wonder if they are really that much different than the different connotations which words when taken singly can carry even without regard to language differences. Small bodies of text seem to do somewhat better, since a little content can be gleaned.

Still, it is far superior, for the most part, than the complete absence of such a convenient tool.

Now we get to compare the relative merits of different translators, so ...

... @ GrouchoMarxist.

"My "BabelFish" is better than your "Live translate."

Nyah, nyah, nyah."
​

I'm not so sure.
"Wettberg kritisierte, dass die Polizei nicht eingeschaltet wurde."
The Windows Live^TM translation is "Wettenberg criticized that the police was not turned on.", which reminds me of that book by Nabokov, who was fluent in several languages.

 

[quadraginta]

I'm not so sure.
"Wettberg kritisierte, dass die Polizei nicht eingeschaltet wurde."
The Windows Live^TM translation is "Wettenberg criticized that the police was not turned on.", which reminds me of that book by Nabokov, who was fluent in several languages.

My BabelFish came close.

"Wettberg criticized that the police were not on."

I don't know diddly about German. Which one got the verb/noun number agreement right?

What happened to the "turned" part.



Why did yours misspell "Wettberg"?

"My "BabelFish" is better than your "Live translate."

Nyah, nyah, nyah."
​

 

[GrouchoMarxist]

My BabelFish came close.

"Wettberg criticized that the police were not on."

I don't know diddly about German. Which one got the verb/noun number agreement right?

What happened to the "turned" part.



Why did yours misspell "Wettberg"?

"My "BabelFish" is better than your "Live translate."

Nyah, nyah, nyah."
​

Okay, you win. My "Live translate" inhales vigorously.
But more importantly, your "BabelFish" renders a coherent statement. It appears that Wettberg is making the point that one would be justified in throwing things at people who were dancing to the police, but since that was not the case, criminal charges are in order.

As to the misspelling of "Wettberg" I have no idea - my "Yahoo! Babel Fish" changes it to "mountain", and "Wettenberg" becomes "bet mountain".

 

[Morrigan]

i'd still like to know why the Israeli dancers, did not just throw rocks right back at them?

Did you perhaps miss the part where they were children?

 

[davefoc]

I still don't get what this whole thread is about.

The act -- muslim migrant youth in Germany shout antisemitic messages and throw pebbles at a Jewish dancing group -- is violent, not excusable, and obviously 'racist' (which I put in quotes just because I distain the notion of different human 'races'). The public is outraged for good reason, and the youth's actions and their parent's responsibility is called into question.

That this happened in Germany, the victims were Jewish, and the culprits were Muslim doesn't really matter to me - take any other variation, and I would be equally appalled.

So what are we discussing here?

An interesting question by itself, I think. On one level, several young Islamic kids threw rocks (probably small but perhaps not) at some Jewish dancers of uncertain origin (Germany or Israel or someplace else). It was a horrible action but still it is below the level of violence or consequence of something that is likely to be reported outside the locality in Germany. Nonetheless the incident seems to be a significant event in that it is probably representative of other similar kinds of events in Germany between immigrant Palestinians and Jewish people.

Some things that have been or might be discussed about the incident that seem somewhat interesting to me:
1. How did this event gain enough international exposure that it came to be the subject of a thread on JREF?
2. Is the event actually representative of the kinds of tension between Jews and Palestinian immigrants in Germany or was it an isolated event?
3. What role did the Palestinian/Israeli conflict play in creating the atmosphere in the Palestinian community that some kids were moved to commit this act of violence?
4. What were the actual facts concerning the incident? How big were the projectiles? How intensely were they thrown? Was it discernible whether the attack was an attempt to injure people or was the attack more of an attempt to harass the dancers.
5. Were the kids interviewed? Did the give any indication as to what motivated them to do this if they were interviewed and their statements have been made public?

 

[Yogzotot]

Nonetheless the incident seems to be a significant event in that it is probably representative of other similar kinds of events in Germany between immigrant Palestinians and Jewish people.

Some things that have been or might be discussed about the incident that seem somewhat interesting to me:
1. How did this event gain enough international exposure that it came to be the subject of a thread on JREF?
2. Is the event actually representative of the kinds of tension between Jews and Palestinian immigrants in Germany or was it an isolated event?

My perception (being German, but living in the UK for a while now): Incidents like this are not representative, and Germany is naturally quite sensitive about anything relating to hate crimes, this is why this kind of act gets the media attention. It's certainly the first time I have heard about something like it, that is with muslims beings the pundits.

Not to say there are no other incidents of hate crimes: Unfortunately, there are always skinheads and other German neo-nazi groups around doing marches (or trying to march, as they are usually heavily opposed by the public), but they in turn usually shout against migrants no matter their religion.

By the way, even in Germany this incident hasn't lingered in big media for long, and it took over a week until international press started to report it, most likely through BBC channels. Though, one reason for this might be the age of the pundits, all but one of them underage, which makes detailed press coverage a bit more difficult anyway, as their identities are not to be disclosed.

For me, the whole incidents tells more about the integration and education of migrants in Germany than anything else.

 

[bigjelmapro]

I'm confused why you throw in Dutch. This thread is about an incident in Germany. The cited articles are in German. And "Stein" is indeed a German word.

Because I speak a bit of Dutch and it just so happens that Dutch is a Germanic language.

As to your first picture: great way to try to mislead us with a photo of three relatively small pebbles taken with a macro lens.

Gave 3 pictures with varying size classification just to prevent this misleading. But conveniently avoiding the other 2 will not make them disappear either.

Using these links: the German word "Kieselstein" means a size between 2 mm and 63 mm. The English word "pebble" a size between 4 mm and 64 mm. So yes, the German word gives more leeway - as to its minimum size.

I admit, there's a classification of size in this name, 'kies'. What has been pointed out is that there is quite a variation between 0.07 inches to almost 2.5 inches in size. Wouldn't you agree?

I'll stick to using the term stone rather than pebble, of which almost 2.5 inches is definitely not a pebble by any sense of the term, just as much as a 19 year old is not a child.

Nothing misleading about davefoc's summary. It was an accurate rendering of the events.

Explained why it wasn't. Merely disagreeing with me states nothing.

 

[bigjelmapro]

"Steinwürfe" means "stone throws". from your link i concluded several diffrent people described the stones as "Kies" (Pebble or gravel)

But you do your earnest to avoid the full term of 'kieselstein', the -stein of which means stone.

 

[Mycroft]

You're running away again.

Let me answer it for you then.

The only reason I see why you would bring up those kids' parents' heritage, is because you think they've got legitimate grievances against Israel, so therefore according to you throwing pebbles at those Jews was in a twisted way justified.

I don't agree with you here.

Bringing up the parentage of the youths doesn't excuse their behavior as righteous anger, but shows the background they come from where such attitudes are common. Let's be honest, in those countries anti-Jewish racism and anti-Israeli feelings are both common and strong.

 

[funk de fino]

well, you see, this thread poses several opportunities, that certain people in our world simply cannot refuse to enjoy. Such as:

1. Condemn muslims.
2. Condemn germany.
3. Portray jews and/or israelis as innocent victims.

bingo!

 

[Mycroft]

How megalomanic can you get? "Social challenge"? German reunification was/is a social challenge, the economic crisis is a social challenge. How vile antisemitism is, what's new about this incident that makes this a special social challenge?

What makes it *not* a social challenge?

You have a segment of the population that thinks it's okay to target some people with violence. That sounds like a social challenge to me.

 

[Mycroft]

would you have it any other way? should we hold ourselves to the same standards as we would Ghana, Nigeria, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia?

that...would be pretty frightening.

How about holding them to our standards?

 

[bigjelmapro]

1. How did this event gain enough international exposure that it came to be the subject of a thread on JREF?

Stoning musicians usually does, doesn't it?

2. Is the event actually representative of the kinds of tension between Jews and Palestinian immigrants in Germany or was it an isolated event?

This and the following question indicates this incessant bias to turn this isn't an argument between Jews/Israelis and Palestinians, when it would be more accurate to frame it as Jews and Arabs (plus the token Persian) or Jews and Muslims.

Do a search and you'll find that in Europe especially wholesale attacks against Jews by Muslims/Arabs is on the rise (sharply, not steadily)

3. What role did the Palestinian/Israeli conflict play in creating the atmosphere in the Palestinian community that some kids were moved to commit this act of violence?

Previous applies. Muslims/Arabs are indoctrinated to hate Jews from early on. This isn't a secret either. Plenty of media to support it. Not a surprise that some actually act upon this indoctrination.

There was no tipping/boiling point or an atmosphere, but merely a mob of Muslims pelting a group of Jews (in traditional clothes, which further begs to question, how an Israeli looks like ) after being introduced.

4. What were the actual facts concerning the incident? How big were the projectiles? How intensely were they thrown? Was it discernible whether the attack was an attempt to injure people or was the attack more of an attempt to harass the dancers.

Would you be so discerning about other hate crimes? Perhaps how hard a white supremacist Czech beat the Roma? Or how hard the Coptic Christian was shoved around by the Egyptian Muslim?

They are reasonable questions overall but it does beg to question the motivations behind dissecting this specific hate crime to such an extent. Would it have to do with Muslims being involved?

5. Were the kids interviewed? Did the give any indication as to what motivated them to do this if they were interviewed and their statements have been made public?

It was Zionist entity agents that actually threw the rocks. Or that 'Juden Raus' is actually a specific Israeli foreign policy term.

 

[Mycroft]

i'd still like to know why the Israeli dancers, did not just throw rocks right back at them?

Because that would have caused an emergency session of the UN to convene and another condemnation of Israel.

Oh, and violence is bad and should be mostly avoided.

 

[DC]

But you do your earnest to avoid the full term of 'kieselstein', the -stein of which means stone.

that is my language.......

I use Kies and not Kieselsteine, the same meaning, just alot lot shorter.

do you now want to tell me how i should use my language?

and just to make sure and prevent to have my words twisted.

I condemned and still condemn the action of the peoples throwing stones. no matter the size of stones.

 

[DC]

would you pefer me to use Kieselsteinchen?

 

[bigjelmapro]

that is my language.......

I use Kies and not Kieselsteine, the same meaning, just alot lot shorter.

do you now want to tell me how i should use my language?

and just to make sure and prevent to have my words twisted.

I condemned and still condemn the action of the peoples throwing stones. no matter the size of stones.

You've avoided the full term used in this thread and in the article itself.

The only precedent I wanted to set was the use of the term 'stone' rather than the innocuous 'pebble'. There's no twisting of any sort.

So there's no twisting or anything. Kieselsteine is the same in German and Dutch (albeit slightly different spelling) and the full term should be used over the truncated Swiss version of it.

 

[bigjelmapro]

And to the above statement, who is condemning Germany here? Who is playing the victim card? Wow, to what great lengths these nutjobs will go to pigeonhole someone...