Merged Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla, According To Reports

[stilicho]

And Hamas promptly closed it.

I guess they have to get their goons prepared to get Hamas' juice money.

Why doesn't this surprise us?

@The Fool:

well the fundamental difference is that Egypt is closing its own borders....much as I disagree with it this is a far cry from proclaiming an exclusion zone in international waters....lets compare apples with apples.

It is apples to apples, though. There are obvious reasons that Egypt has sealed that border (and why, as WildCat confirmed, even Hamas has sealed its own borders).

It's a mess, absolutely, but charging only Israel with lunacy or stupidity is rather one-sided. The international waters trope is only employed to create an emotional furour against one pack of obstinate self-serving politicians.

I'd find the wrath against the IDF a lot more believable if people would equally criticise Hamas for employing innocent residents of Gaza as pawns and the organisers of a flotilla which clearly contained violent agitators along with any of those who might have been truly peaceful. One thing I hope we can agree on is that this stunt proved to be a hugely successful international PR coup for Hamas.

 

[DC]

Zionist lies! Those were just tools and material to build a baby milk factory.

kitchen knifes and tools.......

something you usualy dont find on such big ships.........

 

[DC]

There are also claims the IDF uses the bodies of Palestinian children. It's a well-oiled propaganda machine to cull the useful idiots.

yeah sure, you know what happened without an investigation.

 

[DC]

(Sigh)

This thread is quite informative.

Two of the main "moderates" on this forum -- Cleon and Parky -- turn out rather differently than they think.

Parky's posts are practically identical to the reaction of Hamas' leader about the incident (I'm serious), not only in their content, but in their combination of contempt and insensate rage toward the Jews.

Cleon's "different" "Palestine Solidarity" "peace" group turns out to be the same as the other death-to-the-Jews similar groups: 20% let's-kill-the-Jews folks, 80% useful idiots.

This shows the degree to which white-hot hatred and rallying behind Hamas had taken over the so-called "moderate peace camp".

Sceptic, you are as extemist as the "kill the Jews folks" just you are from the "kill the Palis folks"

 

[yairhol]

I'm late into the discussion and I don't know if this has been mentioned:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3897667,00.html

...revealed that the majority of those who attacked the Israeli Naval Commandos boarding the ship have direct and indirect Global Jihad ties.
...
Some among that group are believed to have ties with World Jihad groups, mainly al-Qaeda.
...
One Yemenite Islamist was photographed with a dagger in his belt prior to the raid.
...
it is clear that the majority were recruited by the same IHH handler who organized the flotilla. IHH is a Turkish humanitarian relief fund with a radical Islamic anti-Western orientation.
...
Some of the suspects were found to be carrying large sums of money. Others had Kevlar vests and gas masks; and all were found to be carrying weapons such as knives, metal clubs and slingshots.
Investigators have already concluded that this was the group that planned the violent resistance, which centered on the Marmara's top deck.

"peace" activists my ass.

 

[DC]

You don't have a right to defend yourself by launching explosive devices into civilian areas, with the sole goal of killing civilians.

Did you know Sami Kuntar is a national hero of Lebanon? His heroic act was bashing in the head of a Jewish toddler.

At some point the Palestinians will have to act civilized, and they will then enjoy the benefits of living in a civilized country.


Yeah, it's brutal. And somehow there's more Palestinians than ever... a rather odd thing to happen under a "brutal occupation" of 40 years. The only brutality is self-inflicted.

Do you think the Jews would have managed to multipy in numbers had the Arab armies won any of those wars bit_pattern?

maybe one day they living condistions will be civilised, and then we also can expect them to act civilized. but first we should lead by example.

and with your logic, Hamas is brutal? there are more jews in Israel than ever...... yeah Hamas beeing brutal, pppfff.

 

[DC]

Reminds me of the time I was so unfairly criticized for my pro-Israel organization.

I mean, how many Neo-Nazi demanding Israel kill all the inferior Arabs of the mud races were there in the organization? 10%-20% of those present, tops.

And yet some people claimed that, for some strange reason, it's a disgusting racist group.

Some people are so unfair.

(Sigh....)

Look, I'm not saying Cleon is a Hamas supporter himself. What I am saying is that, contrary to his protestations, his "different" "Palestinian Solidarity" group of intelligent, caring people seems to be made up -- to judge from the membership list -- of the usual 20% actively let's-kill-the-Jews folks and 80% useful idiots.

That is quite typical for such groups.

Again, Cleon was caught in bed with Hamas and keeps shouting "it's not what you think!". He's angry and accusing me of being unfair and unjust, but that's what most spouses caught in bed cheating do when they're caught, I'm told.

90% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

lying scumbag.

 

[DC]

I'm late into the discussion and I don't know if this has been mentioned:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3897667,00.html



"peace" activists my ass.

evidence? your links only provide claims.

 

[yairhol]

kitchen knifes and tools.......

something you usualy dont find on such big ships.........

right...along with gas masks, kevlar vests, metal clubs and slingshots. All perfectly sensible on a big cruise.

Oh and the "kitchen" knives, sensible enough to use against soldiers? But then why cry when these soldiers retaliate? You attack a soldier with a metal club or a knife and then cry that you got shot at?

 

[yairhol]

evidence? your links only provide claims.

Link works just fine for me.
You have to press on it you know.

 

[DC]

for the Pro-Israeli this bloackde seems to be totaly legal. not so for the UN and not so for many many many other people on this globe, and especially not tho tose on the ship, so for them it swas no legal boarding , it was an illegal boarding, so sure they ressist.

but i guess for the pro israelis here its hard to understand other people point of view.......

 

[DC]

Link works just fine for me.
You have to press on it you know.

yes i found out sofar already, then i even used reading, and found no evidence of the claims in your links.

 

[Skeptic]

yeah sure, you know what happened without an investigation.

I wasn't around when Lincoln of York was, allegedly, murdered by Jews to use his blood for Matzos in passover. Nor was I around in 1840 when Jews in Syria were accused of the same thing. But that hardly means we need to "investigate" that -- or this latest reincarnation of the blood libel.

 

[Kotatsu]

Excellent, so you know I'm not making this stuff up and spewing conservative talking points for rhetorical reasons.

Indeed, my initial reaction was mainly towards how your explanation was incompatible with the knee-jerk idiotic "criticism against Israel = ANTI-SEMITISM" that appeared earlier in this thread.

Do you also believe that someone's actions can put them in harms way, or a position to be "victimized" / Say, for instance I got pulled over for speeding and exited my car brandishing a baseball bat threatening the cop. He draws his gun and gives me a warning, I refuse to comply and he shoots me. Wouldn't I be complicit in getting myself shot ?

Yes, but he would still be the person who shot you, and if you are killed because of this, he is still the one who murdered you.

I can't agree with that. HAMAS's charter calls for the destruction of Israel and I fail to see why someone who does not subscribe to that idea would even consider joining HAMAS.

I know no one who is a member of HAMAS, but I do not think it at least theoretically impossible that the sort of people I describe exists. The Swedish Social Democratic Party has since its founding in the 19th century had the abolition of the Royal Family in its charter, yet that has never happened despite them having won roughly 3/4 of the elections since general suffrage was granted. There are still people in the party today who are royalists, and thus while I wouldn't join HAMAS while that section was in the charter, I cannot hold it for impossible that other people might.

Then how do you guys get organized, if your website is outdated?

Wild and improbable guesses: mobile phones, Twitter, blogs, radio, text messages, word of mouth, posters, fliers, leaflets, pamphlets.

Indeed. Of course since only one side actively instigated violence and the other side did it's best to show restraint until faced with lethal force, it's easy to guess which side you'll support.

The first Swedes kidnapped and detained by Israel have now returned and been interviewed by Swedish radio. Their stories (from other ships than the Mavi Marmara does not align well with your statement. Rather, they all amount to a situation where the Israeli forces demand total and immediate obedience, or they would start shoving, pushing, shooting with paintball pellets, using tazers, and in at least one case push someone to the ground and step repeatedly on his face. Of course, I only have eye-witness reports heard over the radio about this. Note, however, that this was on one of the boats where the peace activists actually followed the agreement supposedly reached before setting off, and therefore using non-violent methods of resistance.

Can we please stop calling them "peace activists?" This Orwellian bit of vocabulary is surreal.

Would "activists opposing the forces of oppression" be preferable to you?

I was enjoying the juxtaposition of phrases like "the peace activists violently attacked the soldiers boarding the blockade runner with improvised weapons" and your plan would somewhat obscure the glaring hypocrisy involved.

It gets even funnier! Just have a look at this:
"the peace activists violently attacked the soldiers and were subsequently slaughtered by soldiers specially trained in non-lethal take-over"
See? Endless fun!

 

[bigjelmapro]

Hamas are terrorist for killing civilians, yet Israel has killed at least ten times the number of civilians than any Palestinian group. The double standards are quite breathtaking.

And see here, the oh so valid argument of death ratios, where one side has a death cult on an industrial scale, with terrorist training summer camps using humanitarian aid to boot, and one side actually protects its civilians, especially its children.

The failed argument never seems to amaze me though.

 

[bigjelmapro]

It says a lot about the mentality of the extremists on this forum that they have to try and desperately paint anyone criticisng Israel as being Hamas supporters or Holocaust deniers, also says a great deal about the vacuousnss of their position.

Nope. Its more the tactic to whinge that one is being painted as a Hamas supporter or Holocaust denier in a failed attempt for their arguments to gain more credence.

So talk amongst yourself, avoid the points.

 

[bit_pattern]

Bingo. I'd like to ask any other poster to explain why Israel should allow this to happen. Israel's blockade is the only response in these circumstances.

And Hamas is a response to a forty year long occupation.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Thanks for quoting that, I would have missed it otherwise, and wouldn't have learned that the Israeli propaganda against the IHH, saying they are linked to Islamic terrorism for their part in helping Bosnian Muslims during the Serbian's attempted genocide.

When its inconvenient its dismissed as propaganda. IHH provides financial support for groups listed as terrorist groups. How this is Israeli propaganda when even the IHH has been listed by the CIA as a financier of terrorist groups, well, difficult to understand. Explain it otherwise.

 

[bit_pattern]

When its inconvenient its dismissed as propaganda. IHH provides financial support for groups listed as terrorist groups. How this is Israeli propaganda when even the IHH has been listed by the CIA as a financier of terrorist groups, well, difficult to understand. Explain it otherwise.

This:

"We don't have anything against Israel. Our only aim was to carry aid to the people of Gaza. But for Israel, regardless of your religion or your nationality, if you help the people of Gaza you will be declared a terrorist."

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64U4SO20100601

 

[Kotatsu]

Why is Egypt blockading Gaza?

I heard on the radio that they aren't anymore, though I haven't had time to confirm this (1), so I can't be sure, but in many ways this is a victory, if true!

So were the other boats attacked too?

Yes. Though these followed the agreement on non-violent methods, and were thus not killed by Israeli soldiers. Instead, they were only tazered, shot with paintball guns, and pushed to the ground to have their heads stepped on.

First off, when a ship comes steaming towards your naval blockade, you have no way of knowing what's on board, so stating that the ships were only carrying LEGOs and provisions is incredibly naïve, especially when we're dealing with a flotilla with members of Islamic terrorist factions as part of its crew. Therfore, the Israelis decided to order the ship to be diverted to port to be inspected. A perfectly rational demand.

Indeed. I live in a harbour town, and I can tell you that I've had it up to here with all the times I've woken up in the middle of the night because the army flies out at half past four in the morning with large helicopters filled to the brim with soldiers just to inspect ships that are coming into port. They have no respect for those of us who have to get up early in the morning and go to work!

I assume you have it even worse in Bergen, since you're sort of more exposed to the open sea there, and the army has to go out and invade every ship that passes by. I can just imagine what it's like in even larger harbour towns. I heard that in Rotterdam you can sometimes not even see the sky for all the large army helicopters filled with heavily armed soldiers going out to inspect ships.

and finally a picture of some of the weapons oboard Mavi Marmari

[qimg]http://i48.tinypic.com/2ag2fpl.jpg[/qimg]

Zionist lies! Those were just tools and material to build a baby milk factory.

Oh my merry maker, they brought a crescent wrench, some pliers and a screwdriver aboard a ship driven by an engine??!! What possible use could they have, except for mauling Israeli soldiers? Well, I certainly can't think of any!

Oh, and it gets worse. It seems they had a length of rope, some kitchen knives and -- is that a scarf? I have been instantly converted: it's a good thing the specialists in non-lethal take-over killed all those people before they started swinging their scarves around. Why, I imagine the whole of the Eastern Mediterranean would otherwise be covered in blood by now! There must be a reason that France and other countries are so insistent in their attempts to ban Muslims from carrying scarves in school, after all!

If someone came into my house right now they could find all those items except for the shawls.

Therefore, you should expect that the police will shoot to kill when they come to visit next time. Anyone who has a kitchen knife, a screw driver or a length of rope, well... let's just say that the only good person owning a length of rope is a dead person owning a length of rope.

---
(1) I've barely had time for my first morning tea!