Merged Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla, According To Reports

[bobdroege7]

Why is Egypt blockading Gaza?

 

[quixotecoyote]

The ships were already on their way to deliver aid.

Through a blockade, in which they knew they would be boarded and the ships rerouted to offload the aid in a manner that would have the same humanitarian effect (since any contraband is not going to get through the blockade anyway), but wouldn't score the anti-Israel propaganda points that trying to heroically run a blockade would.

Storming a ship with commandos in international waters is unambiguously an "attack".

So were the other boats attacked too?

You are allowed to fight back if a cop breaks into your house at night to rape your wife.

Really, so if they hadn't fought back, horrible crimes would have been perpetrated upon them? Why don't you ask the activists on the other boats about that?

 

[DC]

Why is Egypt blockading Gaza?

because Hamas won the elections.

 

[DreadNiK]

The ships were already on their way to deliver aid.


Storming a ship with commandos in international waters is unambiguously an "attack".

You are allowed to fight back if a cop breaks into your house at night to rape your wife.

I think we need to drop the analogies with regard to the act of boarding, I've been using the police analogy myself and it doesn't really work.

Can we all agree that what happened that resulted in resistance to the boarding was at least as follows:

1. the flotilla had stated its intention to run the blockade that Israel has publicly stated they are enforcing (legal or not)

2. Israel had warned the flotilla that it would not be permitted to do so.

3. Prior to boarding the ship, the ship had been ordered to turn back (?)

4. Israel boarded the ship in international waters

5. So far it appears the soldiers involved only used lethal violence because of a very real threat to their lives

?

As you can see, the police analogy inappropriate on both sides - the soldiers had no intention of harming the passengers (we assume) and likewise they were soldiers in international waters, not police in sovereign territory.

 

[DC]

Only in the sense that every law enforcement action ever done is an attack.




Really, so if they hadn't fought back, horrible crimes would have been perpetrated upon them? Why don't you ask the activists on the other boats about that?

what does the UN say about the Gaza blockade?

 

[Danmotron]

Funny, Danmotron, how you dismissed completely the link and the point Bigjelmapro was making in the post you intentionally misquoted.

You think nobody noticed?

You seem keen on misjudging me. I was reacting to bigjelmapro's posts citing laws about how it's okay to attack a vessel that runs a blockade and intends to deliver contraband. However, this presumes that the blockade Israel has on gaza is legal - it is not. Further, it has been condemnned by countless aid organizations including amnesty international, and standout individual advocates of human rights such as Nelson Mandela. I reacted more emotionally than I probably should have in any case.

 

[DC]

I think we need to drop the analogies with regard to the act of boarding, I've been using the police analogy myself and it doesn't really work.

Can we all agree that what happened that resulted in resistance to the boarding was at least as follows:

1. the flotilla had stated its intention to run the blockade that Israel has publicly stated they are enforcing (legal or not)

2. Israel had warned the flotilla that it would not be permitted to do so.

3. Prior to boarding the ship, the ship had been ordered to turn back (?)

4. Israel boarded the ship in international waters

5. So far it appears the soldiers involved only used lethal violence because of a very real threat to their lives

?

As you can see, the police analogy inappropriate on both sides - the soldiers had no intention of harming the passengers (we assume) and likewise they were soldiers in international waters, not police in sovereign territory.

there are voices that claim the IDF shot first.
its claims vs claims.

 

[quixotecoyote]

what does the UN say about the Gaza blockade?

You tell me. Then tell me why I should care, given the UN's piss poor reputation in humanitarian affairs in general and regarding Israel in particular.

 

[DC]

You tell me. Then tell me why I should care, given the UN's piss poor reputation in humanitarian affairs in general and regarding Israel in particular.

you talked about law enforcement, you want to use the UN maritime sea law?

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Food, water, lego brick toys for children...yeah, what threatening terrorists those horrible aid workers are with their slingshots and improvised weapons. How dare they throw commandos off their boat for attacking them illegally as they drift towards an illegal naval blockade. It's almost like israel was engaged in a criminal action or something.

That is a lot of nonsense in one single paragraph. Congratulations.

First off, when a ship comes steaming towards your naval blockade, you have no way of knowing what's on board, so stating that the ships were only carrying LEGOs and provisions is incredibly naïve, especially when we're dealing with a flotilla with members of Islamic terrorist factions as part of its crew. Therfore, the Israelis decided to order the ship to be diverted to port to be inspected. A perfectly rational demand. The crew, however, refused to comply, so the Israelis made it clear that they would be boarded if they continued on. When they did -- and let us remember that this was a flotilla that had made it abundantly clear in the media that they intended to run the blockade -- the Israeli armed forces boarded the ship, which they are, as has been pointed out in this thread already, allowed to do under international maritime law. Whether the blockade was "illegal" is unrelated, as far as i know: if your intent is to run a blockade, whether you're moving quickly or "drifting", you may be stopped and boarded.

Your argument that the activists used improvised weapons is likewise very odd. The "improvised weapons" wounded a number of Israeli soldiers, and the activists were quite capable of taking lives with them. No matter how you twist and turn it, you are allowed to fire when confronted with armed resistance. Have you watched the video clips where the first commandos, wielding paintball guns, are set upon by bats, iron pipes and axes?

Do you really think that ships stating they carry LEGOs should be allowed to run blockades? That's as naïve as saying that I can bypass an airport security checkpoint if I state that oh, no, no need to search me, I have nothing illegal in my backpack or pockets.

If crooked cops raid a ghetto and start illegally shooting people in the dead of night, someone grabbing a dropped weapon in the confusion is not an excuse for the cops to do what they've done.

It's not, to my knowledge, illegal to discharge your service firearm if you are attacked by a person whose intent is to kill you. Whether you're in a ghetto or suburbs, or a good cop or crooked cop, doesn't matter either.

 

[quixotecoyote]

you talked about law enforcement, you want to use the UN maritime sea law?

I do?

 

[Danmotron]

there are voices that claim the IDF shot first.
its claims vs claims.

'Who shot first' is irrelevant because the commandos were there illegally. It's not 'claims versus claims' that the raid was illegal, and that the blockade is illegal. It is either legal or it is not - and it is not, and has been thoroughly condemned as such for quite some time. It was Israel's decision to abandon the ongoing UN discussions over what to do with regards to the flotilla in favor of a commando night raid that could only end in violence.

This video summarizes the situation contextually pretty well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB_CKL5h2_8

 

[Pardalis]

You seem keen on misjudging me.

Well, you didn't help your case.

I was reacting to bigjelmapro's posts citing laws about how it's okay to attack a vessel that runs a blockade and intends to deliver contraband.

No, you attributed bigjemapro's false statements, in order to better argue against him. That's called the strawman fallacy.

However, this presumes that the blockade Israel has on gaza is legal - it is not.

The link showed otherwise.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

'Who shot first' is irrelevant because the commandos were there illegally. It's not 'claims versus claims' that the raid was illegal, and that the blockade is illegal. It is either legal or it is not - and it is not, and has been thoroughly condemned as such for quite some time.

Source? Oh, and if it's not a matter of opinion, why on earth does it matter if it is "thoroughly condemned"?

It was Israel's decision to abandon the ongoing UN discussions over what to do with regards to the flotilla in favor of a commando night raid that could only end in violence.

Are you saying it's Israel's fault that the activists on board had armed themselves and attacked the boarding party? In my eyes, this fact only further justifies the decision to board the ship.

This video summarizes the situation contextually pretty well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB_CKL5h2_8

Is this the same video that was posted only a few posts back?

 

[Danmotron]

That is a lot of nonsense in one single paragraph. Congratulations.

First off, when a ship comes steaming towards your naval blockade, you have no way of knowing what's on board, so stating that the ships were only carrying LEGOs and provisions is incredibly naïve, especially when we're dealing with a flotilla with members of Islamic terrorist factions as part of its crew. Therfore, the Israelis decided to order the ship to be diverted to port to be inspected. A perfectly rational demand. The crew, however, refused to comply, so the Israelis made it clear that they would be boarded if they continued on. When they did -- and let us remember that this was a flotilla that had made it abundantly clear in the media that they intended to run the blockade -- the Israeli armed forces boarded the ship, which they are, as has been pointed out in this thread already, allowed to do under international maritime law. Whether the blockade was "illegal" is unrelated, as far as i know: if your intent is to run a blockade, whether you're moving quickly or "drifting", you may be stopped and boarded.

Your argument that the activists used improvised weapons is likewise very odd. The "improvised weapons" wounded a number of Israeli soldiers, and the activists were quite capable of taking lives with them. No matter how you twist and turn it, you are allowed to fire when confronted with armed resistance. Have you watched the video clips where the first commandos, wielding paintball guns, are set upon by bats, iron pipes and axes?

Do you really think that ships stating they carry LEGOs should be allowed to run blockades? That's as naïve as saying that I can bypass an airport security checkpoint if I state that oh, no, no need to search me, I have nothing illegal in my backpack or pockets.

It's not, to my knowledge, illegal to discharge your service firearm if you are attacked by a person whose intent is to kill you. Whether you're in a ghetto or suburbs, or a good cop or crooked cop, doesn't matter either.

The blockade is unanimously illegal. Israel demanding to stop the flotilla for inspection was illegal - and the whole purpose of the flotilla is to get around the rather frustrating turning away and beuareucratic costs that aid workers have had to deal with in the 'regular channels.' Your complaints of injury on the commandos conducting an illegal raid is laughable - a crook that sustains injury from a homicidal assault isn't any less of a crook. As for members of the flotilla being 'members of islamic terrorist factions' this is not only irrelevant but laughable.

Here's your 'terrorrist group members.'

Among the volunteers whom Israel consider terrorists and extremists are

· Annekarijn de Jong (29),Weesp, Holland. A Dutch PhD researcher at the School for Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), department of Anthropology. Her research interest are popular protest, human rights and for her fieldwork research she spent 16 months in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, including occupied East-Jerusalem and Besieged Gaza.

· Inge Neefs (26), Ghent, Belgium. She studied educational sciences and holds a masters degree in anthropology. Recently, she spent three months in the West Bank as an activist supporting the "non-violent resistance" of Palestinians against Israel's military occupation.

· Hedy Epstein (86); St. Louis, Missouri, USA. She worked for the American government, first with the U.S. Civil Censorship Division and then as a research analyst at the Nuremberg trial.

· Katherine Elliott Sheetz (63), Mass., USA. She is a Registered Nurse with a master's degree in sustainable development. She has worked on human rights, health and food security, most often in Haiti.

· Caoimhe Butterly 31. She’s an Irish human rights activist & the Free Gaza Movement's Gaza coordinator. Caoimhe lived in the Jenin refugee camp for a year in 2002 before being shot by Israeli occupation soldiers, then deported. She has worked with human rights organizations, social movements, NGOs, prisoner rights campaigns and as a volunteer on ambulance services during the massacres in Gaza in December and January, and was a witness to war crimes and white phosphorous attacks, Caoimhe went to Gaza on the second trip in October 2008, then stayed as one of the two Free Gaza coordinators there.

· Denis Halliday, 69, (Ireland). He was the UN Assistant Secretary-General from Humanitarian Programme in Iraq to support the Iraqi people struggling1994-98. Halliday served UNDP from 1964-94 in Iran, New York, Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, Indonesia, Samoa, New York again and finally as head of the UNDP Regional Office in Thailand.

· Mark Daly 37, Kerry, Ireland. He is an Irish Senator and a member of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs, the Seanad Spokesman on Overseas Development, the Deputy Government Spokesman on Innovation, and the Coordinator for the National Forum on Europe.

· Shane Dillon (36), Dublin, Ireland. He is an Irish Seafarer. He has served as Chief Officer on Irish and British merchant ships, and is now based in Dublin.

· Fiachra O Luain 28, Carndonagh, Ireland. He is an Irish Peace Activist. Fiachra was an independent candidate in the 2009 European election. He hopes to help build new consensus in Europe and the Americas about the gravity of the situation in Gaza.

· Alex Harrison (32), London, UK. She is a solidarity worker living between London and the Middle East. She lived and worked in Balata, Nablus in the West Bank during the intifada. When she tried to visit family in Palestine in 2006 and 2008, the Israeli authorities denied her entry. She is determined to return to Palestine and plans to work do long-term human rights monitoring in Gaza.

· Ewa Jasiewicz (31), London, UK, Poland. She is an experienced journalist, community and union organizer, and solidarity worker. Her articles have appeared in The Independent, The Guardian, Le Monde Diplomatique, Red Pepper, and Z Net, among others. She worked with the ISM in Palestine, and with Voices in the Wilderness in Iraq.

· Lubna Masarwa (32) is a Palestinian activist. She works as a community organizer for Al Quds University focusing on educational rights for the thousands of Palestinian children in East Jerusalem who have no schools. She also works with the community of East Jerusalem in their struggle against the Israeli government’s policy of ethnic cleansing Palestinian families through home demolitions and forced displacement.

· Huwaida Arraf (33), Ramallah, Palestine / Washington D.C. / Detroit. She is a Palestinian with American citizenship. She graduated from the American University Washington College of Law, where she focused her studies on international human rights and humanitarian law. In 2001 Huwaida co-founded the International Solidarity Movement (ISM), which has twice been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.

· Annette Groth 56, Berlin, Germany. She is a member of Parliament in the German Bundestag and Human Rights Policy Spokeswoman for the LEFT Party Parliamentary Group. She serves on the Human Rights and Humanitarian Aid Committee, as well on the Economic Cooperation and Development Committee.

· Inge D.M. Höger 59, Herford, Germany. She is a member of Parliament in the German Bundestag, serving on the Defence and Health Committees. She is the political spokesperson for the LEFT party.

· Matthias Jochheim 61, Frankfurt, Germany. He is a physician and psychotherapist. He is Deputy chair of IPPNW Germany, International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War .

· Norman Paech 72, Hamburg, Germany. He is a LEFT Member of Parliament in Germany's Bundestag, as well as Professor of Public Law at the University of Economics and Political Science (HWP) in Hamburg.

· Mairead Maguire 66 Belfast, Ireland. She is a Nobel Peace Laureate (l976) and Co-founder of Peace People, Northern Ireland. She was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for her work for peace and a nonviolent solution to the Ethnic/political conflict in Northern Ireland. Mairead has travelled many times to the occupied territories of Palestine to support the nonviolent peoples’ movement for Human Rights, International Law, and Self Determination of the Palestinian people. Maguire was shot with a plastic bullet whilst participating with Palestinians/Israelis/Internationals in a peaceful protest March to the Wall in Bilin, in April, 2007. She was on Board ‘Spirit’ when Israel hijacked the Boat in International Waters, taking all 2l humanitarian passengers to "Israel", where they were arrested, detained for a week in an Israeli prison and then deported.

 

[Pardalis]

The blockade is unanimously illegal.

You keep saying that, and yet show nothing to support it.

At least Bigjelmapro showed something.

 

[BeAChooser]

Five videos that put the lie to the leftist media and palestinian presentation of this incident:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKOmLP4yHb4&feature=player_embedded#! "Israeli Navy Addresses a Ship in the Flotilla and Offers it to Dock in the Ashdod Port"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE&feature=player_embedded "Demonstrators Use Violence Against Israeli Navy Soldiers Attempting to Board Ship"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded "Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buzOWKxN2co&feature=player_embedded ""Peace activists" stabbing IDF soldier"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAMFnu8ZBwk&feature=player_embedded "Footage from the Mavi Marmara Including Injured Soldiers and Items Found On Board"

Bet you won't see these on the US MSM.

 

[Danmotron]

Source? Oh, and if it's not a matter of opinion, why on earth does it matter if it is "thoroughly condemned"?

Are you saying it's Israel's fault that the activists on board had armed themselves and attacked the boarding party? In my eyes, this fact only further justifies the decision to board the ship.

Is this the same video that was posted only a few posts back?

It was israel's decision to conduct an illegal commando raid to deter aid workers from running through an illegal blockade. Any blame you place on the activists injuring commandos during an illegal raid is just blaming the victims.

 

[funk de fino]

Indeed. Of course since only one side actively instigated violence and the other side did it's best to show restraint until faced with lethal force, it's easy to guess which side you'll support.

Anyone who uses the word restraint to describe any Israeli actions is clearly barking mad. Or lying.

Last time they used restraint was probably the Gulf war.

 

[BeAChooser]

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/terror-finance-flotilla

The Turkish organizers of the Gaza Strip-bound flotilla that was boarded this morning by Israeli commandos knew well in advance that their vessels would never reach Israeli waters. That's because the organizers belong to a nonprofit that was banned by the Israeli government in July 2008 for its ties to terrorism finance.

The Turkish IHH (Islan Haklary Ve Hurriyetleri Vakfi in Turkish) was founded in 1992, and reportedly popped up on the CIA's radar in 1996 for its radical Islamist leanings.

… snip …

The Turkish nonprofit belongs to a Saudi-based umbrella organization known to finance terrorism called the Union of Good (Ittilaf al-Kheir in Arabic). Notably, the Union is chaired by Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi, who is known best for his religious ruling that encourages suicide attacks against Israeli civilians. According to one report, Qardawi personally transferred millions of dollars to the Union in an effort to provide financial support to Hamas.

In 2008, the Israelis banned IHH, along with 35 other Islamist charities worldwide, for its ties to the Union of Good. This was a follow-on designation; Israelis first blocked the Union of Good from operating in the West Bank and Gaza in 2002.

Interestingly, the Union of Good may not only be tied to Hamas. Included in the Israeli list of 36 designees was the International Islamic Relief Organization (IIRO). In 2006, both the U.S. government and the United Nations designated the IIRO branch offices in Indonesia and the Philippines for financing al Qaeda. French magistrate Jean-Louis Brougiere also testified that IHH had an "important role" in Ahmed Ressam's failed "millennium plot" to bomb the Los Angeles airport in late 1999.

The U.S. government, it should be noted, also views the Union of Good as a terrorist organization. On November 12, 2008, a press release from the U.S. Treasury announced the umbrella group's leaders as Specially Designated Global Terrorists (SDGT), stating that the group was "created by Hamas leadership to transfer funds to the terrorist organization."

Will any of this get mentioned by the leftist US MSM or Obama?