The Freeman Movement and England

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The FOTL creed is very childlike. It's the equivalent of putting their hands over their ears and chanting "I'm not listening", i.e if they refuse to accept that they are being told off, then as far as they are concerned they aren't being told off.

FOTL's have gotten themselves into trouble because they have willingly taken on debt but now either can't or just don't want to pay it back, and when they get hauled into court for this they want to be able to say "I'm not listening" and they see themselves as this entity which cannot be touched by an abstract concept such as the state or a corporation. So long as they refuse to recognise the authority being used against them, they can convince themselves that the authority cannot touch them.

But just like the child when you pull their hands away from their ears and force them to listen, they are startled and indignant that their belief has let them down. So, they look for a conspiracy.
 
The main point they never seem to be able to grasp is that they claim all correspondance is addressed to the "Strawman" (another misuse of a legal term I know) and as they are a "human being" they are not responsible for the strawman.

What escapes them is a that as the strawman they claim is in fact a "fiction" it cannot actually "do" anything to be accountable for.

A "strawman" cannot not pay tax,drive a car uninsured or run up utility bills as it doesnt actually exist in reality.

JB
 
Hans said:
In the 90s I was discussing this same issue with 'sovereigns'. They felt a 14 year old could drive a 5 ton truck anywhere he wanted, at any speed - if he had one
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My feeling is it takes ten years for a budding driver to turn into a good driver. So a 14 year old can drive a big truck--so long as he's been driving since the age of 4. :p
 
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Just to ask again. Could one see the FOTL movement as simply a rebellion against the established order - to overthrown the existing society and government and replace it with (anarchy from our point of view and 'freedom' from the FOTL point of view)?

Historically governments tend to deal harshly with insurrection and 'revolts'. Is FOTL heading down that path? (this is hypothetical as I don't expect FOTL to become larger than a very tiny fringe group)

How do western governments view such groups?
 
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Hans said:
Just to ask again. Could one see the FOTL movement as simply a rebellion against the established order - to overthrown the existing society and government and replace it with (anarchy from our point of view and 'freedom' from the FOTL point of view)?
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I'd say no. Most actual rebels start from the position, "The current order sucks! Let's take action to change it!" These guys start from the position, "The current order is a complete fake! The world already is the way we want it to be, and we won't listen to anyone who says differently!"

They're not willing to do the things they would have to do in order to actually change anything* - they'll just muddle along pretending they're "in the know", and rationalizing their jail time as a victory. That sort of non-sense won't convince any large number of people to support them, which is what you'd need for an actual revolution.



*Like, organizing actual political parties, or revolutionary groups with real power, as opposed to a bunch of twits making themselves fake driver's licenses in their basements.
 
Horatius & Rimerol

Thanks for your comments

How large would you estimate FOTL would have to become to attract the attention of the UK/Canadian,Ozzie or US governments?
 
Horatius said:
I'd say no. Most actual rebels start from the position, "The current order sucks! Let's take action to change it!" These guys start from the position, "The current order is a complete fake! The world already is the way we want it to be, and we won't listen to anyone who says differently!"

They're not willing to do the things they would have to do in order to actually change anything* - they'll just muddle along pretending they're "in the know", and rationalizing their jail time as a victory. That sort of non-sense won't convince any large number of people to support them, which is what you'd need for an actual revolution.



*Like, organizing actual political parties, or revolutionary groups with real power, as opposed to a bunch of twits making themselves fake driver's licenses in their basements.
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I agree, with one caveat. Read this:

http://worldfreemansociety.org/tiki-index.php?page=RVCP-2

In particular, point 10:

"We will be claiming and seizing a valley within which those who desire can join a working and stable community."

Now, it is highly unlikely, for all the reasons you suggest, that they will ever mobilize to this point, but Menard at least wants to go full Koresh. That alone should place him on the radar.
 
Hans said:
How large would you estimate FOTL would have to become to attract the attention of the UK/Canadian,Ozzie or US governments?
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It wouldn't so much be about size but instead about what they were doing.

At the moment they're a bunch of unemployed gits living in their parents' basements and talking a lot of smack about not paying taxes and not having a driver's license, which isn't too surprising since they don't have any income and don't own cars. No matter how many gits they collect to believe in BMOTL and post on the Internet, they aren't a threat and thus don't matter to the gubmint.

To get the ATF's attention they'd have to set up a compound somewhere or some other sort of facility where people could go and live "FOTL Style", and then make some kind of effort to deter normal law enforcement from carrying out their duties -- this effort normally involves arming the hell out of everyone there and stockpiling a bunch of weapons. This sort of act displeases the local government (city, state, and federal) and they'll start keeping an eye on things.

Then, if they ever do anything other than rattle sabers, talk a lot, and eat tubers and ramen, the facility will be forcibly shut down. The problem is that to start such a facility, you need actual real live money, something FOTLers lack in abundance. Then, long before they can get to the "facility" stage, whoever actually has money will attract the attention of the IRS, and that usually cuts off ambition.

In the end, this isn't a movement that will ever matter; it isn't a movement about actually doing stuff, it's a movement about being a damnfool and throwing tantrums. That sort of thing typically accomplishes something on the order of "****all".
 
Hans said:
Horatius & Rimerol

Thanks for your comments

How large would you estimate FOTL would have to become to attract the attention of the UK/Canadian,Ozzie or US governments?
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Well in so far as they are asociated with the tax protestors in the US the IRS has already taken note.

While I have no idea what the cutoff number would be I would assume steps would be taken if they because numerous enough to be collectively wasteing serious court time. That said I would expect the courts themselves to take action before that point was reached.
 
Question for those who have read more of the FOTL material than myself. Has their been any discussion amongst themselves about trying to 'use the same system' as the sovereign's did to issue fraudulent bonds, liens and other monetary instruments?
 
The problem is that to start such a facility, you need actual real live money, something FOTLers lack in abundance.
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And, in fact, if they live according to their principles, could never have since working for a living is "wage slavery," the present currencies are only "fiat money" anyway (so they would die before dirtying their hands with it), and gold or jewels are damn hard to come by (especially if you refuse to deal in "fiat money.")

Wow. It's kinda sad for your own belief system to set you up for that much fail.
 
That's probably the whole appeal of the system. Are you a total failure? It's not because you're a lazy, uneducated, opinionated blowhard, it's because you're making a principled stand against an oppressive system! You're almost Luke Skywalker!
 
Hans said:
Question for those who have read more of the FOTL material than myself. Has their been any discussion amongst themselves about trying to 'use the same system' as the sovereign's did to issue fraudulent bonds, liens and other monetary instruments?
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The Montana freemen had something going with their own versions of assorted monetary instruments.
That is more or less what got them in trouble.
 
The one on Icke's about Nigel Farage of UKIP is particularly stupid.
 
I know brianthebrain and he was being sarcastic :)
It doesnt take much to get them going.
They post nonsense without any evidence and he was just doing the same.

JB
 
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